I have a question that remains unanswered:

[Wrangler]

Then what does this mean:

Isaiah 9:6 Parallel: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (link)

Help me to understand (hold the eisegesis, please).

Your question does not relate to my post - other than an attempt to support a doctrine not found in Scripture.

In short, Isaiah 9:6 does not apply to the Messiah. I’m sure - if you look - you will find excellent Jewish commentary on the monotheist verse.

I did provide a link. Did you not read it?

 

[theefaith]

Your question does not relate to my post - other than an attempt to support a doctrine not found in Scripture.

In short, Isaiah 9:6 does not apply to the Messiah. I’m sure - if you look - you will find excellent Jewish commentary on the monotheist verse.

I did provide a link. Did you not read it?

why does it need to be in scripture????

 

[amigo de christo]

well, i guess “last days” applied to 2000 years ago too

It did . The key sign of the last generation is that by and large its churches would have no resemblence to the early church .
IT would be a generation that would always say in its heart MY LORD delays His coming . Always using excuse to reason out
why we have so much time left .
The early church believed His coming was nigh . So did the true lambs through all ages .
Its just in this last and final generation they would always make excuse to reason against those few who still believe His coming was nigh .
In noahs and in lotts days , Most had no idea how NIGH it was . SO TOO is it in these days . YET THE SIGNS have never been more fully
ripe as to just how close HIS COMING really is . AND YET the closer we get the more folks reason out that we have or could have much time left .
THAT is the major sign of the final generation . THEY TOO BUSY going with the great awakening and peace and safety . THEY cannot see
just how close we truly are at all .

 

[Wrangler]

I'd like to visit your planet someday.

Says the guy who posted he did not mean anything by his post.

It’s unclear if you meant that individual post or, as a rule, all your posts, but on my planet, words have meaning and ideas have consequences. Scientific inquiry is supposed to begin with a fixed premise that leads to a tentative conclusion.

Trinitarianism starts with a fanatical conclusion and alters ANYTHING to ‘support’ it - including Definition, Logic, Language Usage and History. They cannot even recognize that Jesus died and was resurrected by God, as explicitly stated - not implied or figuratively expressed - but explicitly stated in Acts 17:31 and is the very heart of the Good News.

Father’s create sons. Father’s and sons are not the same being. Father’s exist before their sons exist.

Let me ask you a few simple questions;

1. Why would Jesus talk about his God if he were God?
2. Why would Rev 1:1 say God gave Jesus a revelation if Jesus were God?
3. And why would Jesus say his Father is the only true God, if Jesus was God?

According to trinitarians, the plain words of Scripture are there only to confuse us!

 

[Wrangler]

why does it need to be in scripture????

Because otherwise, one would have to arrogantly presume the almighty Creator of the Universe is unable to reveal himself in a way we can understand. Mark 7:13

 

[David in NJ]

Because otherwise, one would have to arrogantly presume the almighty Creator of the Universe is unable to reveal himself in a way we can understand. Mark 7:13

i love it - true my dear friend wrangler - this is true 100%

 

[BarneyFife]

Your question does not relate to my post - other than an attempt to support a doctrine not found in Scripture.

In short, Isaiah 9:6 does not apply to the Messiah. I’m sure - if you look - you will find excellent Jewish commentary on the monotheist verse.

I did provide a link. Did you not read it?

Wrangler, practically everyone here believes that others are attempting to support a doctrine not found in Scripture.
I can find lots of websites that comprehensively and eloquently present anything I want to believe.
I don't remember whether I read your link or not but:
Me, look to the people who rejected the Messiah to clarify Messianic prophecy?
Again, I'd really like to visit your planet someday.
(That's sarcasm meant to be friendly and humorous, by the way.)
Honestly, as much as I regard your contribution here, we definitely have some kind of communication block, at times.

Surely you can see that I've tried to be open-minded. I actually discovered and accepted the textual discrepancy in 1 John 5:7 because of this thread. (I'm not a King James cultist, although I have much of it memorized.) Unfortunately for those who are trying to convince me otherwise, it wasn't a substantial enough piece of evidence to alter my theology whatsoever. I believe the way I believe. The Seventh-day Adventist church has a doctrine called the "sealing." It's defined as a settling into of the Truth. I've been an avid Adventist for 31 years, brother. I don't like the way the World Headquarters emphasizes the Trinity, but I sincerely believe that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are as verily God as the grass is green in summer. I'm open to convincing evidence to the contrary, but I've yet to see anywhere near a preponderance of it. I'm speaking from the heart here.

While we're at it, I just have to say that among the Catholics I've encountered here, objections to apostolic succession and transubstantiation get a much bigger rise out of them than that of the Trinity. Their trinity isn't even genuine, as it adds in Mary as co-redemptrix. Effectively a quadrinity, isn't it? They claim she's subordinate, but I'm not buying it from what I've seen. Where are the Catholics in this thread, by the way? We have three that are very active here, and only one of them has shown up briefly.

And I never demanded that you produce evidence of threats. I only requested it. I don't mind at all if you refuse to.

 

[Wrangler]

I believe the way I believe. The Seventh-day Adventist church has a doctrine called the "sealing." It's defined as a settling into of the Truth. I've been an avid Adventist for 31 years, brother.

Oh. Thanks for telling me. I don’t know why but the doctrine of JW and SDA’s seem to be criticized often on these boards.

Long ago I realized there are too many denominations to learn who has what doctrines. I like the idea of the sealing.

At church Sunday the Pastor made the comment that Evangelics do not believe 10 things have to happen before Christ’s return; that they believe he can return at any time. To my reading of Revelations, it seems an unsealing doctrine.

 

[Wrangler]

Let me ask you a few simple questions;

1. Why would Jesus talk about his God if he were God?
2. Why would Rev 1:1 say God gave Jesus a revelation if Jesus were God?
3. And why would Jesus say his Father is the only true God, if Jesus was God?

According to trinitarians, the plain words of Scripture are there only to confuse us!

practically everyone here believes

Appeal to Diversion/Majority

we definitely have some kind of communication block

Yea. You block communication beyond a certain point as this exchange shows. Cannot even attempt to answer 3 simple questions.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

oh…i meant more like “for the last year” lol…but i could see how you would be the anchor there, ya

Yep: about the last 9 months + 2 months (baby's age now)

 

[Wrangler]

And I never demanded that you produce evidence of threats. I only requested it.

I haven’t sat down on my computer in a week. I’ll look for it and even send a PM when I find it.

 

[BarneyFife]

Why would Jesus talk about his God if he were God?

Maybe He subordinated Himself?

Why would Rev 1:1 say God gave Jesus a revelation if Jesus were God?

Does it have to specify The Father?

And why would Jesus say his Father is the only true God, if Jesus was God?

Because His Father is the only true God.

All this seems counterproductive since I'm not inclined to defend the Trinity doctrine nearly as much as you are to debunk it. I'm not going to make an argument that you haven't heard.

According to trinitarians, the plain words of Scripture are there only to confuse us!

Straw man?

Speaking of plain words of Scripture:

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

Are these plain words of Scripture there only to confuse us?

It is impossible for finite minds fully to comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One. To the keenest intellect, the most highly educated mind, that holy Being must ever remain clothed in mystery. “Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?” Job 11:7-8....

The Word of God, like the character of its divine Author, presents mysteries that can never be fully comprehended by finite beings. The entrance of sin into the world, the incarnation of Christ, regeneration, the resurrection, and many other subjects presented in the Bible, are mysteries too deep for the human mind to explain, or even fully to comprehend.

The Bible unfolds truth with a simplicity and a perfect adaptation to the needs and longings of the human heart, that has astonished and charmed the most highly cultivated minds, while it enables the humblest and uncultured to discern the way of salvation. And yet these simply stated truths lay hold upon subjects so elevated, so far-reaching, so infinitely beyond the power of human comprehension, that we can accept them only because God has declared them. Thus the plan of redemption is laid open to us, so that every soul may see the steps he is to take in repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, in order to be saved in God's appointed way; yet beneath these truths, so easily understood, lie mysteries that are the hiding of His glory—mysteries that overpower the mind in its research, yet inspire the sincere seeker for truth with reverence and faith. The more he searches the Bible, the deeper is his conviction that it is the Word of the living God, and human reason bows before the majesty of divine revelation.

To acknowledge that we cannot fully comprehend the great truths of the Bible is only to admit that the finite mind is inadequate to grasp the infinite; that man, with his limited, human knowledge, cannot understand the purposes of Omniscience.... God intends that even in this life the truths of His Word shall be ever unfolding to His people. There is only one way in which this knowledge can be obtained. We can attain to an understanding of God's Word only through the illumination of that Spirit by which the Word was given.... And the Saviour's promise to His followers was, “When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.... For He shall receive of Mine, and shall show it unto you.” John 16:13-14.

God desires man to exercise his reasoning powers; and the study of the Bible will strengthen and elevate the mind as no other study can.... A sense of the power and wisdom of God, and of our inability to comprehend His greatness, should inspire us with humility, and we should open His Word, as we would enter His presence, with holy awe....

 

[Abaxvahl]

The Father is the Son's Father-- "Abba". Spiritually, speaking that is. Both have always existed.

I agree with this although if they do not have the same nature or some likeness I do not see how one can be called Father and the other Son. For St. Paul calls people his spiritual children in the Epistles but there he has imparted to them a likeness and facilitated them being born again into a redeemed nature, which he also has. In natural fathers their children always share the same essence.

In addition to this, what do you mean by always existed, is it the same as eternal and beyond time or something else by it? Since that trait would "resolve" into something else like immutability and simplicity, which would just go into Creedal Trinitarianism so I think you mean something else.

 

[BarneyFife]

Appeal to Diversion/Majority



Yea. You block communication beyond a certain point as this exchange shows. Cannot even attempt to answer 3 simple questions.

You didn't give me enough time.

I haven’t sat down on my computer in a week. I’ll look for it and even send a PM when I find it.

Don't trouble yourself. I believe you. What does it matter anyway? All who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. I wouldn't consider that real persecution anyway, would you?

 

[BarneyFife]

Appeal to Diversion/Majority

I'm not arguing or trying to prove anything. I'm just wondering aloud what purpose the statement serves. Can't you lighten up a little?

 

[BarneyFife]

Every particle of sin and suffering arises from the distortion of the character of God.

 

[amadeus]

Every particle of sin and suffering arises from the distortion of the character of God.

Thought provoking, and perhaps true. Did then God in His overall plan for mankind include within men the possibility of such distortion in the form of disobedience? Why?

 

[Wrangler]

Speaking of plain words of Scripture:

John 10:30 I and the Father are one."

Are these plain words of Scripture there only to confuse us?

They are plain words - plainly figurative. Being on the same page is what this verse means and is a way of speaking even today.

Being the same being is how trinitarians suppose this verse is to be interpreted. Not only is it far fetched given other Scripture verses, it is certainly not an explicit teaching of the trinity as other valid interpretations are possible. See above.

The proof text that the trinitarian take is wrong is found in John 20:31. Everything he wrote was to prove Jesus is the Messiah. This logically means NOTHING John wrote can be used to prove anything else, including the trinitarian doctrine.

 

[Wrangler]

Thought provoking, and perhaps true. Did then God in His overall plan for mankind include within men the possibility of such distortion in the form of disobedience? Why?

Because being free is an absolute.

 

[BarneyFife]

Thought provoking, and perhaps true. Did then God in His overall plan for mankind include within men the possibility of such distortion in the form of disobedience? Why?

Yes, but sin began in Heaven. God fashioned His creatures with free will and a measure of creativity, which Lucifer used to craft pride.

The origin of sin cannot truly be explained. To explain it would be to excuse it.

Why? Because creatures who are programmed to love can't really love. They're just robots. Not very good companions.