David in NJ
Well-Known Member
LOL x100 = i have read your OT passages and say now for the 5th time = YES, i agree with the promises of God to the flesh nation Israel
Which is IMPERATIVE for you to understand Matt ch24
I have noticed the following Negatives about the 'rapture'...
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Which is IMPERATIVE for you to understand Matt ch24
Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Much love!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Great question here marks and i am looking forward to us gathering together in Matthew which answers your question.
Now, i am dealing with pain today and must step out for a whole leaf Green Tea as that helps subdue my pain.
While i am out, can you look at Post #239 and answer those questions since they pertain to Israel and us.
Prayer for my pain will never be rejected and always received from you marks.
Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Much love!
I'm just following along as it's written. A lot has to do with the meaning of "the chosen people" as we see it, and as they saw it.
I follow what's called the "Historical Grammatical" hermeneutic, which is to say, I think the Bible means what it meant at the time it was written, and that the meanings of things said are what they meant when they were said. We look at the people who used this language, how it was used, what it meant, at that time.
I find these things are clarified in word studies and parallel passages, such as Joel 3 and Matthew 24-25. Joel has very little detail, Matthew has much more, but clearly these are parallel passages, identifying both the regathering of Israel, and the gathering of the nations for judgment.
We know that Paul would use "elect", "chosen", referring to Christians. This was like 30 or 40 years later though. It's like when a songwriter in the 60's talking about such a gay day, and someone now insisting they are talking about homosexual experiences or something. It's the exact same thing. That was NOT what the songwriter meant! But they insist, NO! It's a lie!! They said gay, they meant homosexual! It's not true.
My younger sister (born 1966) was given the middle name "Gay", as my mother had hoped she would be a happy child. That's what the word meant at that time.
" . . . gather the elect . . ." This word also had a certain meaning in that day.
I've got plans after work. I'm taking my family out to dinner tonight. Afterward we may see that new movie. If not we'll go home.
Did I SAY I'm only taking my family?
Can you be more specific in what you are talking about? The prophecy has a lot to do with the preservation of Israel and God keeping His promises to them.
The body of Christ was a mystery - musterion - revealed through Paul. This means it was not previously revealed.
Much love!
Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
See it in Jesus' prophecy . . .
Joel 3:1-2 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Joel 3:2 KJV
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
(Plead here is in the sense of issuing judcial decree)
Matthew 25:32 KJV
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
These prophesy the very same things.
Much love!
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
See it in Jesus' prophecy . . .
Joel 3:1-2 KJV
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Joel 3:2 KJV
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
(Plead here is in the sense of issuing judcial decree)
Matthew 25:32 KJV
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
These prophesy the very same things.
Much love!
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Well how would you answer?
OK, maybe an apology is in order, so if you didn't realize your question is contradictory, I'm sorry for responding the way I did.
It came across to me as pejorative. I'm sorry if I was wrong!
Much love!
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
OK, i'm back and thank you my Brother for your prayers which "availeth much"
marks said: I follow what's called the "Historical Grammatical" hermeneutic, which is to say, I think the Bible means what it meant at the time it was written, and that the meanings of things said are what they meant when they were said. We look at the people who used this language, how it was used, what it meant, at that time.
i AGREE with this marks
As we apply Historical Grammatical Hermeneutics we are now ready to look at what JESUS said and to whom.
I've been doing that for decades now brother!
Ezekiel 36:24 KJV
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Much love!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
@marks
The Historical Grammatical Hermeneutics are present and observable in easy to understand form beginning in Matt 24:1-3
Verses 1 thru 3 dictate to all readers exactly who JESUS is speaking to = "His disciples"
As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings.
2“Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
Historically, His disciples are not representatives of the flesh nation Israel even though they are Jews.
Historically, these disciples no longer belong to the Temple in Jerusalem just as the LORD says in verse 2.
Historically and Eternally these disciples belong to Christ and are His Elect/Chosen who have become, by God's Choosing, the Church/Bride of Christ.
Historically this Choosing of God's Elect began the very day in which Christ called them out = to follow Him, the Savior of the world.
Now it is your turn to follow the Historical Evidence = John 3:25-36
Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
27John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
29He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease. 31He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
35The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
The Historical Grammatical Hermeneutics are present and observable in easy to understand form beginning in Matt 24:1-3
Verses 1 thru 3 dictate to all readers exactly who JESUS is speaking to = "His disciples"
As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings.
2“Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
Historically, His disciples are not representatives of the flesh nation Israel even though they are Jews.
Historically, these disciples no longer belong to the Temple in Jerusalem just as the LORD says in verse 2.
Historically and Eternally these disciples belong to Christ and are His Elect/Chosen who have become, by God's Choosing, the Church/Bride of Christ.
Historically this Choosing of God's Elect began the very day in which Christ called them out = to follow Him, the Savior of the world.
Now it is your turn to follow the Historical Evidence = John 3:25-36
Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
27John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
29He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30He must increase, but I must decrease. 31He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
35The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
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Yes, I'm certain.
This is parallel to many many other prophecies that God will regather Israel to their promised land.
The chosen nation, and the gentiles nations. The chosen are gathered, then the nations are gathered, Matthew 24:31 and 25:32.
Much love!
That's not what I'm talking about. These are all conclusions you've reached.
Historically, these were Jews who lived under the Law during the life of Christ, IE, before His death, before pentecost, before "He breathed on them saying Receive ye the Holy Spirit". Before the church, before the body of Christ, before the revelation of the body of Christ or the rapture.
Much love!
You are aware, are you not, of Israel's special status as the "chosen nation"? That of all the nations of the earth, that God chose this one for His purposes?Are you sure you're quoting the right verse?
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
NOT ONCE in the NT does the word elect refer to Israel or the Jews! Here's the link to every place the word is used...
G1588 - eklektos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G1588 - ἐκλεκτός eklektós, ek-lek-tos'; from ; select; by implication, favorite:—chosen, elect.www.blueletterbible.org
Elect...
- picked out, chosen
- chosen by God,
- to obtain salvation through Christ
- Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
- the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
- choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
If you like I can show you the passages which teach us about this.
Much love!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Josephus should have known, he became a governor of Galilee didn't he? Searching his works, *dozens of books) would be a task - Good luck with that. Don't think it was in the Mishnah or Talmud,the Jewish virgin was to be married on the 4th day of the week.
Here is more detail, but ancient sources you may have yo go to a Jewish Encyclopedia to get them?
All the places I'd have guessed, it's not there.Josephus should have known, he became a governor of Galilee didn't he? Searching his works, *dozens of books) would be a task - Good luck with that. Don't think it was in the Mishnah or Talmud,the Jewish virgin was to be married on the 4th day of the week.
Here is more detail, but ancient sources you may have yo go to a Jewish Encyclopedia to get them?
For all I know this is a modern tale, I just cannot find any ancient sources, not even anything more than 100 years old. Not even that.
Much love!
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So does this mean you do or do not know about Israel's status as the "chosen nation"? It seems that you are avoiding that.
Much love!
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