"I will draw all men unto me." - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

How so?
Many use Romans chapter two to declare that we are without excuse.
Since the creator is evident in creation. However...

For those who believe that we are saved by receiving the gospel message of Christ,
where is that message to be found in nature?

It's there

@MatthewG had an interesting response to the question.

He indicated that a belief in a creator God would point a person to the Bible to learn more.
However, this confirms that the message was not in creation itself.
Further investigation in another source was required.
AND... it doesn't account for those in countries where a Bible, and Christianity are not present.

But you see something "there"? ???
Please elaborate. Thanks.

 

[MatthewG]

However, this confirms that the message was not in creation itself.

@St. SteVen : It contains the glory of God - the glory of God was Jesus Christ the Word that came down.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 16:27, “To the only wise God be the glory forever.” Galatians 1:3, “God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forevermore.” Ephesians 3:21, “To Him be the glory to all generations forever and ever.” Philippians 4:20, “Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever.

Psalm 19 1
The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

 

[MatthewG]

What do you think about that, @St. SteVen it's pretty radical like the music you enjoy making.

 

[St. SteVen]

However, this confirms that the message was not in creation itself.

@St. SteVen : It contains the glory of God - the glory of God was Jesus Christ the Word that came down.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Seems to be a HUGE disconnect here somewhere.
Either on my part, or on the part of most Christians.

Seems to me that if this was the case, (that nature contains the glory of God -
the glory of God was Jesus Christ the Word that came down)
then those who reject Christ would also reject nature.

Do those who reject Christ also reject nature?
Since it "contains the glory of God", which is Jesus Christ?

Where are those that reject Christ on Sunday morning?
Probably out enjoying creation without him. - LOL

 

[MatthewG]

Seems to be a HUGE disconnect here somewhere.
Either on my part, or on the part of most Christians.

Seems to me that if this was the case, (that nature contains the glory of God -
the glory of God was Jesus Christ the Word that came down)
then those who reject Christ would also reject nature.

Do those who reject Christ also reject nature?
Since it "contains the glory of God", which is Jesus Christ?

Where are those that reject Christ on Sunday morning?
Probably out enjoying creation without him. - LOL

You present a very good case there @St. SteVen and for some reasons I enjoy to beat cases if possible.

So how this would work is...

Wow, look at the stars, look at the weather patterns, look at the many merits of food, look at the animals, look at other human beings, and you see the universe at night one day, and you say...

There has to be something greater than me...

And you submit to the Creator.

One of the first scriptures in Genesis - is where they started calling out to the Creator, and it can be the same way for those who have no access to any bible at all.

You dont submit to nature.

God then starts to work on the heart and mind of that individual, who is willingly.

Wouldn't that solve the issue?


Love to know your thoughts,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

What do you think about that, @St. SteVen it's pretty radical like the music you enjoy making.

Are you familiar with the REPLY button in the lower right of the post you are responding to?
Using it would help us to know who's post you are replying to. Not a problem in this case, but usually...

I understand that what you are saying makes sense from the perspective of those who know who the creator is.
Otherwise, as far as I can tell, the best conclusion in observing creation is that it bears the marks of a creator.
That creation didn't just appear out of nowhere for no reason. But how. or why. that happened is NOT revealed in nature.
At least not to the uninformed.

 

[St. SteVen]

There has to be something greater than me...

And you submit to the Creator.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. (and use of the REPLY function) - LOL

The quoted bit above is where it falls apart for me.
Realization that there is a creator, is understandable. BUT...

Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.
And my other point is about a person making this realization in a non-Christian land.
Where would their search naturally lead them? Probably to the religion of their land.
To know more about the creator.

 

[MatthewG]

Are you familiar with the REPLY button in the lower right of the post you are responding to?
Using it would help us to know who's post you are replying to. Not a problem in this case, but usually...

Steven, I just wanted to talk to you.

I understand that what you are saying makes sense from the perspective of those who know who the creator is.

That is good to know cause was wondering what you thought.

Otherwise, as far as I can tell, the best conclusion in observing creation is that it bears the marks of a creator.

Yes, and the heavens declare the glory of God, while the skies proclaim his handy work.

That creation didn't just appear out of nowhere for no reason. But how. or why. that happened is NOT revealed in nature.

Takes faith to really subject yourself to God, and even pick up your own cross when a person decides to get more personal and actually search about the one whom came to save the very world we live in, from total destruction. (Though we human beings could possibly ruin ourselves through destruction which is apparent in history). Not so sure we have to worry about the Wrath of God being poured out anymore though.

At least not to the uninformed.

That is why there is no excuse, and human beings make there choice. Scrolling through tiktok, I seen a person just yesterday with on a live called "Athiest something", with a pony and unicorn with the word SAtan in the background.

I love them (though i dont know them), but they make their decision.

Would you say we all have a decision?
Also do you believe that God is gonna force people to accept him in the afterlife?
That is what universalism usally teaches, and I dont follow all the famous people or care much they are famous, or the books they may have written, all people are going to be going into the Kingdom - even if it's by force.

That doesn't sound like God to me personally... My perspective is people outside of the Kingdom if AT ALL it is possible - will have to make the decision to go through the lake of fire, and perhaps those in the Kingdom when (reaching heaven), will have an objective given by God to go out there and help them come to the truth, and they experience this fire for however long it takes to get to the truth of Christ Jesus.

Dont know if it is all true or not, but if you look in the retrospective of Reonciliation, and fulfilment in Christ, there is some hope in those things, I find personally.

All the best,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

Love to know your thoughts,
Matthew

If we can get over this hurdle, assuming I convince you of my perspective,
then we can address the...
BIGGER issue. Which is...

The phrase in the Romans chapter one verse that is focused on is this:
"... people are without excuse" - vs 20

Which is quoted to me when I ask about the countless billions that have gone
into the afterlife with no knowledge of Christ, or the gospel message.
The clam is that nature revealed it to them. Say what?

Romans 1:18-20 NIV
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven
against all the godlessness and wickedness of people,
who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—
his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen,
being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse.

 

[MatthewG]

Which is quoted to me when I ask about the countless billions that have gone
into the afterlife with no knowledge of Christ, or the gospel message.
The clam is that nature revealed it to them. Say what?

Steven,

The answer to the question is,

Is the phrase people are without excuse true or not?

Now you gotta give some leeway, to God and his judgment he is fair in assessing in the life of individuals - there is just no excuse for people to say there is no God.

Did everyone of those people that died, believe in God, or not?

Doesn't matter if they had the gospel or not, and perhaps a person who did have knowledge came by and relayed it, and it went by word of mouth.

That is something you and me both have no answer to.

However the thought is there are some that did believe, and some did not.
Some looked at nature and seen there must be more than themselves and look towards the creator, and some looked at nature and decided to worship it instead, even their own selves.

Love in Christ always,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

Would you say we all have a decision?
Also do you believe that God is gonna force people to accept him in the afterlife?
That is what universalism usally teaches...

Good questions.
No, UR does not teach that "God is gonna force people to accept him in the afterlife".
Nor does it teach a "second chance" to accept. Nothing is left to chance.

Those whom God calls to a relationship with him in this life are in a special class, I would say.
Having already begun their journey with Christ.

Everyone will face judgment/correction/restoration/redemption.
I wouldn't say this is forced. More like irresistible.
When our eyes are opened to the horror of what is wrong with us,
we will gladly abandon it. Happily accepting healing and restoration.

Those who may claim they hate God, haven't met him yet.
God is love.

 

[St. SteVen]

The answer to the question is,

Is the phrase people are without excuse true or not?

Now you gotta give some leeway, to God and his judgment he is fair in assessing in the life of individuals - there is just no excuse for people to say there is no God.

Did everyone of those people that died, believe in God, or not?

Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.

Do you believe that the acknowledgement of a creator in creation is sufficient for salvation?
Nothing more is needed?

 

[MatthewG]

Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.

Do you believe that the acknowledgement of a creator in creation is sufficient for salvation?
Nothing more is needed?

@St. SteVen,
(Edited)
You can have your opinion, I respect that, I wont condemn you for having an opinon.

Have already share a scripture from the bible, for you to know that the Heavens declare the glory of God, and the skies makes known his handiwork. Which is either true or false.

You know, for those who never heard the gospel message, yes I do.

Acknowledgment of God who created the universe, and they submit to him, I believe he will work on the heart and mind of that individual.

However for those who have heard the gospel message, no I do not.
The same process, God who created the universe, has spoken to them, and they either accept or reject, God will either work on their heart of those who are willingly, and God will always call out to the lost, or those who are rejectors.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life, and the only way to get the Father.

All in love,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

Now you gotta give some leeway, to God and his judgment he is fair in assessing in the life of individuals - there is just no excuse for people to say there is no God.

Try this on for size.

Let's say I am a South American jungle tribesman.
My ancestors observed the creation and made the conclusion that there was a creator.
I share their belief as well. It is what I was raised to believe. Am I saved?

Or another tribes person, born and raised in Mongolia. My people rejected the notion of a creator.
I share their belief as well. It is what I was raised to believe. Am I saved?

 

[MatthewG]

Try this on for size.

Let's say I am a South American jungle tribesman.
My ancestors observed the creation and made the conclusion that there was a creator.
I share their belief as well. It is what I was raised to believe. Am I saved?

Or another tribes person, born and raised in Mongolia. My people rejected the notion of a creator.
I share their belief as well. It is what I was raised to believe. Am I saved?

Steven,

Man I done answered your question about three times.

Can't keep going on sorry.

Please read:

• #33

final response.

You can reject or accept my opinion and at this point the patience wanes (probably the coffee or the run around questions), a human being can really only handle so much.

All in love and respect,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

You can have your opinion, I respect that, I wont condemn you for having an opinon.

I have noticed that Bible-believing Christians seem to have a shortage of common sense.

You have presented "proof-texts" to support your opinion, but you have failed to make sense of it.

Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.

Where is it?
In the Bible, right? Not in creation.

 

[MatthewG]

I have noticed that Bible-believing Christians seem to have a shortage of common sense.

You have presented "proof-texts" to support your opinion, but you have failed to make sense of it.

Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.

Where is it?
In the Bible, right? Not in creation.

@St. SteVen,

Look, do you believe that God can be seen through Creation or not, you continue to say no. That is your opinion right?

I can do the same drawing of the sword to your throat as you are doing to me.

It's really stupid, and ignorant to continue to be such a way, in my opinion. Not saying you are stupid and ignorant. Just you also do not make any sense.

All in love and respect,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

Man I done answered your question about three times.

Many replies, but...
Not once have you answered my question.
Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.
Where is it?

Perhaps another reader knows. ???
Might make a good topic.

Can't keep going on sorry.

We should stop then. Thanks for participating.
I mean to be challenging, but not annoying. - LOL

 

[MatthewG]

@St. SteVen
I believe the final post shows my true thoughts on the matter over all.

• #37

I am not finding what you are saying challenging or unanswerable.

Final answer to all the matter,
Please read:

• #33

final answer.

But you continue to believe what you want.

and I respect you either way,

All in Christ,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

Look, do you believe that God can be seen through Creation or not, you continue to say no. That is your opinion right?

Sorry if I was not clear.
Yes, I believe creation reveals (points to) a creator.
However, creation does not reveal WHO that creator is.
Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.