"I will draw all men unto me." - Excerpt from J. Preston Eby

[MatthewG]

Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.

And? What about it?

Does that make the gospel message any less important to share, and help people to grow, when spirit lead?

Or God will just work it out in the end and it doesn't matter?

That is what doesn't make sense with the whole thought process.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.

And? What about it?

I thought you had enough, but here you are... again.

Post #29 referred to the BIGGER issue. Which is...

The phrase in the Romans chapter one verse that is focused on is this:
"... people are without excuse" - vs 20

Which is quoted to me when I ask about the countless billions that have gone
into the afterlife with no knowledge of Christ, or the gospel message.
The clam is that nature revealed it to them. Say what?

The fact, nature did not reveal it to them. Nature revealed an unnamed creator.

 

[St. SteVen]

Does that make the gospel message any less important to share, and help people to grow, when spirit lead?

Or God will just work it out in the end and it doesn't matter?

That is what doesn't make sense with the whole thought process.

- What is the source of salvation?
- What are the means of salvation?

 

[MatthewG]

St. SteVen said:
Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.

I thought you had enough, but here you are... again.

Post #29 referred to the BIGGER issue. Which is...

The phrase in the Romans chapter one verse that is focused on is this:
"... people are without excuse" - vs 20

Which is quoted to me when I ask about the countless billions that have gone
into the afterlife with no knowledge of Christ, or the gospel message.
The clam is that nature revealed it to them. Say what?

The fact, nature did not reveal it to them. Nature revealed an unnamed creator.

Yes, I know I am very intrigued.

by the thought but what about other scriptures that proclaims that JEsus is the Word, right?

Or that God through him made the universe, if the glory of God is Jesus, which was his Word,

Perhaps the Gospel is in there, but you just deny it for some reason.

Maybe your opinion is incorrect, @St. SteVen.

 

[MatthewG]

@St. SteVen

Another random though is people suggest when you look at the stars your looking into the past, and if those lights are still alive, perhapse life goes on after this, and God can talk to his people who look towards him, and they pray, and call out. Those in other cultures are taught about religious ways of their elders and what not but those who are really truly seeking in faith will be rewarded by the Creator who created them, and he will work with them and give them the holy spirit.

You also have flowers, they grow up and die, and come back, same with trees, all of nature speaks of death, and resurrection. A caterpillar dies (sort of transformed) from its original form and is produced into a butterfly. Perhaps there is more to this than you may have originally thought, Steven.

God is not limited, nor is his Word. They are one after all, right?

The spirit is primary.
The word is referencial.
History is third - or hwoever you say that encial word.

That is all banking on faith, in the hitting 8 ball in the corner pocket. I never been a good pool player, but loved to make whirlpools, in swimming pools. This is all my opinion, and perhaps I am wrong, and you are still right, but the evidence to me is convincing and considerable.

Thank you for dialoguing and giving me a lot to think about it is appericated,

Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, I know I am very intrigued.

by the thought but what about other scriptures that proclaims that JEsus is the Word, right?

Or that God through him made the universe, if the glory of God is Jesus, which was his Word,

Perhaps the Gospel is in there, but you just deny it for some reason.

Maybe your opinion is incorrect, @St. SteVen.

No. This tells me that my stance is correct.

Your stance would declare the South American tribesman as saved.
Saved, because he recognized a creator in creation. Right?
That since the creation pointed to a creator, that he unwittingly believed
in Jesus and was saved, even though he didn't know it. Right?

 

[St. SteVen]

Perhaps the Gospel is in there, but you just deny it for some reason.

Perhaps?
Perhaps the Gospel is in there?
You can't identify it, obviously. And that makes my stance wrong?
If we both agree that it can't be identified, then my stance is correct,

Remember, the point I am defending is that creation does not reveal the gospel message.
And you reply...
"Perhaps the Gospel is in there, but you just deny it for some reason." - LOL
If you can't identify it... maybe it's not there.
Does that seem reasonable?

 

[MatthewG]

If you wanna just be someone who wants to objected, that is fine.

The Gospel message is found in nature.

Death, and resurrection happens to trees, or flowers that come back.

God through his Word - who created made everything.

Human beings are born in to the world, and die in the world, but the rotation never stops.

There has to be more than this life, and just saying that 'the gospel message is not there'

Well Gospel is good news, and the good news is that God is the one whom created, and desires a relationship with those who want a relationship with him.

To limit God, is a problem for me personally.


Anyone can have there opinion and stick to that, it doesn't bother me, however I don't want to limit God or have any desire to do that, because the Heavens declare the glory of God, and if the Glory of God is Jesus, and Jesus was God's Word, then there is ...

Something more than simply saying that God's good news can't be spoken through nature to show that life goes on after here.

And people subject themselves to him, by their own individual self and no one is responsible for someone elses deliverance in coming to truth of - life and death - flesh and spirit - and an experience of Jesus or God speaking to people through dreams, or whatever..

I dont wanna throw all that way, just stand on a stance.

Sorry, but you can I am not responsible for you, even Cain said am I brothers my keeper? Sure to encourage for truth, but they are subject to what they wanna limit themselves or not limit themselves too.




Hope you consider all of this because I dont care anymore to respond - with your help, God seems to have reminded me of what is possible...

Gospel in nature, why not. But not submiting to nature, submiting to the Creator.



All the best, @St. SteVen I love you and thank you for helping me,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

Another random though is people suggest when you look at the stars your looking into the past, and if those lights are still alive, perhapse life goes on after this, and God can talk to his people who look towards him, and they pray, and call out. Those in other cultures are taught about religious ways of their elders and what not but those who are really truly seeking in faith will be rewarded by the Creator who created them, and he will work with them and give them the holy spirit.

That proves my point. Creation does not reveal the gospel message.

You also have flowers, they grow up and die, and come back, same with trees, all of nature speaks of death, and resurrection. A caterpillar dies (sort of transformed) from its original form and is produced into a butterfly. Perhaps there is more to this than you may have originally thought, Steven.

Only those familiar with the gospel message would make the connection.
Which is the biggest problem with your stance. All your points are from a Christian perspective.
Even a Jewish person wouldn't make these connections. And they certainly believe in a creator God. Same God, in fact.
They believe in the creator, but reject the gospel. Saved, or unsaved?

 

[St. SteVen]

The Gospel message is found in nature.

That's what I am disagreeing with.
What do you see in nature that demands a response that secures salvation?

 

[MatthewG]

Nah, let's move to the second mode of what God uses to connect with people.
you can hold your opinion as I stated I am not responsible for you and your subjective beliefs.

Conscience

Romans 2
15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

 

[MatthewG]

That's what I am disagreeing with.
What do you see in nature that demands a response that secures salvation?

Uh, looking at your own humanity and becoming aware of your own darkness inside of you.

Looking to the Creator, but alot of these stuff you keep coming up with just isn't really helpful nor is it encouragement

it really causes people to doubt, and I dont really like that.

 

[St. SteVen]

... even Cain said am I brothers my keeper?

Was he his brother's keeper?
How did God respond?
Are you sure you want to take advice from Cain about brotherly relationships?

 

[MatthewG]

Was he his brother's keeper?
How did God respond?
Are you sure you want to take advice from Cain about brotherly relationships?

I believe every part of the bible has some merit to learn from, most of the time.

It is however a spiritual road map for individuals.

all your questions are just not helpful, no real encourgment or anyhting ...

you are right, and there is no way my conclusions matter it seems. Thats fine.

that bothers me but its all you doing what you want.

I wont condemn you for that, it just an issue that I see.

 

[St. SteVen]

Nah, let's move to the second mode of what God uses to connect with people.
you can hold your opinion as I stated I am not responsible for you and your subjective beliefs.

Conscience

Romans 2
15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

Now you are on the right track. I mostly agree.

But don't tell me to hold my opinion. Thought you said you weren't my keeper.
If so, don't try to keep me.

Yes, human conscience, NOT creation.
Still no gospel message, but that doesn't matter according to this scripture.
God's law is written on human hearts.

 

[MatthewG]

Okay, you can continue to hold your opinion that Gospel is not in the nature.

I disagree.

See ya man,

 

[St. SteVen]

that bothers me but its all you doing what you want.

Why do you cling to bad doctrine?
You have failed to prove your point. Maybe I'm right? (horrors)

 

[St. SteVen]

Okay, you can continue to hold your opinion that Gospel is not in the nature.

I disagree.

It would help if you could prove it. You failed.
Take care. I still love you.

 

[MatthewG]

Psalms 19:1​

The heavens: Psa 8:3, Psa 33:6, Psa 115:16, Psa 148:3-4; Isa 40:22-26; Jer 10:11-12; Rom 1:19-20

the firmament: Rakeea, from raka, to stretch out, the expanse, not only containing the celestial bodies, but also the air, light, rain, dews, etc., all of which display the infinite power and wisdom of their Almighty Creator. Psa 150:1-2; Gen 1:6-8, Gen 1:14-15; Dan 12:3

I don't care to fail in terms of what man considers in which one may need to believe or not believe.

My mom says you can see the Good News in Nature - That at leasts confirms that it can be.

Stars go away in day, come back at night - resurrection.

Looking at the stars at night - they say you see the past - Afterlife (Life continues on from here)

Trees die, like Jesus did for three days, and they come back - resurrection.

The caterpillar is changed into a butterfly - transformation.

The sun and moon, heavens, air, - all claim the glory of God - who is Jesus Christ - who is the Word of God, and was God.

God can also speak to individuals through dreams too, there have been many testimonies of this, God can bring forth those who are broken hearted and looking and searching, no matter where they are in the Kosmos.

God looks at the heart, and there are people out there who dont have a bible or the good news in those written pages but if they are looking towards God and his glory - who Is Christ, that is a whole different story, Steven.

It's the heart God wants, and people become transformed - some only have the natural prescene, and then there are those who have - Christ illustrated - meaning the Word made flesh to read about and look to and understand what he has done, he was the one who made the world.

Joel 2:28-29​

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English Standard Version​

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The Lord Will Pour Out His Spirit​

28 [a] “And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
29 Even on the male and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
Read full chapter

Footnotes​

1. Joel 2:28 Ch 3:1 in Hebrew

Joel 1
Joel 3

Ezekiel 36:22-28​

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English Standard Version​

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I Will Put My Spirit Within You​

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.[a] 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Read full chapter

Footnotes​

1. Ezekiel 36:27 Or my just decrees

Ezekiel 35
Ezekiel 37

Jeremiah 31:33-34​

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English Standard Version​

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33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
Read full chapter

Pslam 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.

All the best to you, Steven, regardless if you dismiss or be nonchalant about it towards me.
Love you too,
Matthew

 

[St. SteVen]

My mom says you can see the Good News in Nature - That at leasts confirms that it can be.

Thank God for Christian Moms.

What I wrote in post #49 still applies.
"Only those familiar with the gospel message would make the connection.
Which is the biggest problem with your stance. All your points are from a Christian perspective.
Even a Jewish person wouldn't make these connections.
And they certainly believe in a creator God. Same God, in fact."

And I would posit that all the world religions acknowledge a creator.
Did they miss the gospel somehow? The gospel you claim is obvious.