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Featured I wonder where this might lead...

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by brakelite, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Have you considered that a picture of Babylon can be seen in Habbakuk and Jer 50 and 51?

    Babylon is a military and economic superpower..
    perhaps this rings a bell;

    Shall not all these take up a taunt against him, satire and epigrams about him, to say: Woe to him who stores up what is not his: how long can it last! he loads himself down with debts.

    Shall not your creditors rise suddenly? Shall not they who make you tremble awake? You shall become their spoil
    !

    Peace!
     
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  2. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Well-Known Member

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    Same owner then, as now - satan. No?
     
  3. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Hah, perhaps, can you expand on what you mean by that?

    They certainly wouldnt acknowledge such, claiming no owner but themselves:

    Terrible and dreadful is he, from himself derive his law and his majesty.

    Swifter than leopards are his horses, and keener than wolves at evening. His horses prance, his horsemen come from afar: They fly like the eagle hastening to devour;

    each comes for the rapine, Their combined onset is that of a stormwind that heaps up captives like sand.

    He scoffs at kings, and princes are his laughingstock; He laughs at any fortress, heaps up a ramp, and conquers it.

    Then he veers like the wind and is gone - this culprit who makes his own strength his god!

    Peace!
     
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  4. 4Jesus

    4Jesus Well-Known Member

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    As to the my statement of the same owner, then as now - all of the empires against God-the-Father, either in OT times or NT+ times, are of satan, no matter the empire - satan is "god of this world" after all. From the Babylonians, to the Egyptians, to the Greeks, Romans, etc. The same spiritual patterns are present in each of them - meaning, not of God-the-Father; slightly altered and with different names, but each relating back to the previous, because they're all from the same source - satan.

    This is what I think is meant by "Mystery Babylon" in Revelation, and not just the physical empires, but the spiritual/esoteric groups as well, meaning all religions not OT Judaism and Christianity, as well as groups like Freemasons, Illuminati, etc.

    In regards to "they certainly wouldn't acknowledge as such, claiming no owner but themselves", I agree only that they don't acknowledge such publicly. Behind the scenes, they do, and will do so publicly once Revelation post chapter 5 begins.

    satan wants to be like God-the-Father, who creates "gods", which in reality is a way to say "angels", but they still view them as "gods", thus "God". One of satan's tactics, in his quest to be like God and imitate God, is to make "gods" for himself, and one phrasing I've heard from them is "you are a god", so with that, they don't claim an owner, now, but will do so once satan presents himself, and they will be his "little gods"/"angels".

    And, to me, this is where the "mark of the beast" comes in, and why I think it will be a physical mark - a branding for these "little gods", showing ownership to "the father" satan.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
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  5. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ya, Paul seems better figured out when irl suggests him, imo
    Jonah, then, The amazing name Javan: meaning and etymology
    kind of a contrast with our current understanding, huh.
    what did Jonah repent of, iyo?
     
  6. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    we dont trust you to fulfill our desires, maybe. I could provide a contemporary example, but i guess it would be um more pointed than you might like lol. i might like even. "Trust" is not really involved, i dont think. When we disobey our parents, is it bc we dont trust them?
    ok
     
  7. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    As much and as often as I might rail against the theology and global and religious ambitions of the Vatican, there are some things with which I would decidedly side with the current Pope , one being his staunch opposition to the current crazy insane liberal anti-marriage anti-God issue of gender identity in schools.
     
  8. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I can't remember the details, but one Pope did attempt to do just that. He was killed I think for his trouble.
     
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  9. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Fascinating site. I bookmarked it.
    The book leaves me hanging. I'm not sure he did repent since he still seems grumpy at the end. And the worm chews through his vine. . . . That could be read as the fallen serpent chewing at the tree of life. He did the job expected of him, but his heart hadn't been in it.

    I'd say Jonah also suffered from an evil imagination to a certain extent. What God told him was ambiguous and could be read two ways. He knew, from the beginning, that God would extend mercy if people repented; but his evil eye kept imagining judgment without mercy.

    He may have repented later though. I say that because what the Jewish tradition says of him. They say he desired God to be merciful after the gourd withered. Some also say he was assumed bodily into Heaven. I just had an insight. The ambiguity of what God said to Jonah could be compared to the knowledge of good and evil.

    Abraham was also told something ambiguous. The "evil imagination" says it meant take Isaac and sacrifice him. The "pure imagination" says "take Isaac along with you to make a sacrifice." Abraham wasn't 100% sure; but he leaned to the latter, being convinced God was good. Interesting too that both Abraham and Jonah are on high hills or mountains. . . .
     
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  10. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    What is the point of the congregation in Heaven? I said something that may have given an incomplete picture of what I believe. While I believe God consistently does what is best for His creation, I also believe He listens to the angels and consults with them. Some things are decided democratically. We may err then if we think God always acts unilaterally because of "omniscience" and "omnipotence." Wouldn't that be boring for Him anyway? Back to Babel now.

    Should we believe God needs spectacles to see? Why is it said then that the LORD came down to see? Names of angels are never mentioned in the Torah and many other books to avoid people knowing them and invoking them. When we see "the LORD," it can mean a variety things. Did "God" really try to kill Moses? Did "God" tempt David to the census? God does not need spectacles. What is being conveyed there is that He came down to the earth to hold court and have evidence presented to the seventy angels of the nations. The earth had already been "divided" among the nations -- that didn't need to be modified -- how could the people be encouraged to do what was expected? I believe a vote was held, and the majority was in favor of confusing their languages -- and God approved it. We should not attribute that decision to Him and Him alone. God is not the author of confusion.

    I think we see something similar before the Flood. Two points of view are given. One is to destroy all mankind. Noah was evidence against complete destruction. A vote was held; and the solution reached made it impossible for mankind to do what he'd done before. It also put limits on what each of the seventy angels could do individually.
     
  11. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    Who to believe?? me of course :) :)
     
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  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    hes just redone the intro page, and it is quite a departure for him, i gotta say. but the etymologies and most of the buried stuff are usually prescient imo
    twice, no less. I just cant quite figure out from what lol
    ha, i'm hipper than i wanna be there lol
    if you then, being evil
    just like every, single other v imo, hmm
    post a Quote? ty. we might have a breakthrough herenow, woo hoo.
    Jonah is a great story for that imo
    hmm, interesting! not sure that will extend to the original; we are reading English there after all. be interesting to see though, yeh
    not a good place to find oneself i guess yeh
    yeah though i walk through the valley...

    or i guess its great if God send you there
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
  13. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes::D
     
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  14. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha, we seek knowledge and facts that we can put a pin in and say " this, right here, is truth" huh
     
  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    tomorrow comes today, ok? 1 Corinthians 13:10 Lexicon: but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. is no guarantee that we will like magically learn everything upon our deaths imo. Find out today, i say.
    i would be suspicious of anyone who claims to understand the Rev well enough to teach it or make a video on it, fer sure. Doesnt mean it isnt spot-on though
     
  16. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I can find the original Jewish source I read that in.

    Jonah spoke the words he was told to.

    Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

    It does not say destroyed explicitly. The word can mean change, convert, turn. It could mean destroyed; but then again, it could mean that the people would repent and be changed. Here's a link how it's translated in other places.

    Genesis 1:1 (KJV) is the right link although it says Genesis.

    It's also said by some that in chapter 1, Jonah didn't want to go (and that was before he knew what message was) because it would make Jews look bad. Gentiles were fast to repent, Jews slow, so it wouldn't look good for Jews if the people of Nineveh repented.

    So Jonah preached and was hoping they wouldn't repent. He was also afraid of being called a false prophet if people thought he predicted the destruction of Nineveh and then it didn't happen.

    I read it both ways: Either repent and have the spiritual wickedness overturned, or your city will be destroyed. It is strange though since I've read somewhre that the city was physically destroyed 40 years later -- the way Jerusalem was 40 years after Jesus.
     
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  17. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    "people of the fish" hmm?

    iow the story works on more than one level, too, i guess
     
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  18. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I got that from a Jewish source; and it is that way in the Hebrew. Some English translations mangle it. Abraham was confident enough that God did not mean to sacrifice Isaac that he told the other two with them that they'd both be back. He also told Isaac God would provide the lamb. Some people may look at that and think Abraham was lying. I don't. "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?"

    The Jews say the ram they saw had existed before Eden.
    I could be wrong about Jonah being on a mountain since it's not mentioned explicitly and I don't know what hill or mountain Jonah would have been on, but I'd think he would have wanted to be looking down on it. I'd say Abraham and Isaac visited God's Holy Hill. I don't think the other two could have "gone up" if they tried. Moses went all the way up a mountain; and Joshua went half way. The elders went a little way up but not as far as Joshua. Was that a physical mountain? Yes and no. There may have been a physical mountain around; but the verse says that Israel were "under" the mountain -- not next to it, but under.
     
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  19. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha, yeh; despite that believers generally "revere" Jonah, right?
     
  20. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if there might have been a measure of simple resentment in Jonah's attitude? Nineveh had long been a thorn in the side of Israel, yet there they still were, and God had not seen fit to destroy them. So Jonah was upset that Nineveh were being offered an opportunity to 'get away' with all the evil they had instigated against 'God's people'. Reminds me of the apostles...shall we call fire down from heaven and destroy them?
    This insular mindset that obstinately refused to share any message of hope with Gentile heathen, was still prevalent in Jesus' day, and it took a blanket full of meat lover's pizza to convince Peter otherwise. Can you imagine the horror at the parable of the good Samaritan? And the reaction of the apostles when they found Jesus talking to the Samaritan woman at the well? And then the paradox of Jesus telling them to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. "But even the dogs get the crumbs that fall from the master's table".
    And yes, Nineveh was destroyed not that much later...what a difference a generation makes.
     
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