If Christian Universalism is true, what's the point in evangelism?

[amigo de christo]

What you proclaim as God's way amounts to extortion.
What a horrible monster you make our loving God out to be.

actually aint steven YOU call HIM a monster . Not us . You do . And for this shall ye wail on HIS day .
You make GOD out to be a monster by means of a sensual humanistic love .
GOD aint the monster st steven that you accuse HIM of being . He is JUST
and will make an end of all evil . YOU say because GOD has such a place as the lake of fire
and because HE says that all unbelievers will have their part in it , T HAT MAKES HIM THE MONSTER .
No sir . GOD gave this world THE GIFT , But many choose to follow the love of a harlot
RATHER than DOING what HE said to DO . You calling the one true GOD a monster
cause you know only of a humanistic sensual love. YOU KNOW not the LOVE OF GOD .
In fact you make void the LOVE OF GOD with your deconstruction and humanistic love and ideals
that have molded another image of GOD which is NOT GOD .
Remember when i said ITS SATAN who desires the death of all .
ITS WHY his love wont correct sins and errors
wont correct unbeleif
and if and when it often uses the name of JESUS it promotes another jesus , another gospel .
YOU BOUGHT IT . And you will pay dearly for this ON HIS DAY .
LEST YOU DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT . TURN to GOD , get back into that bible
and STOP heeding deconstruction and this other view of what many t hink and say is love and of GOD .
one thing i do know , You cannot say on the day of the LORD , that you were not warned .
Heck , i myself been warning you , as have ot hers .

 

[St. SteVen]

actually aint steven YOU call HIM a monster . Not us . You do .

Only when clarifying your opinion of Him.

 

[St. SteVen]

You make GOD out to be a monster by means of a sensual humanistic love .

LOL
Listen to you. Wow.

Do you prefer the kind of love that incinerates humans? Like Auschwitz?

 

[amigo de christo]

LOL
Listen to you. Wow.

Do you prefer the kind of love that incinerates humans? Like Auschwitz?

no . nor Does GOD desire their death .
THUS its why HE SENT the SON so that all who do beleive in HIM , wont face that second death that all have earned .
ITs why i warn men to repent
its why i warn these churches to stop heeding false sensual love that rejoices in iniquity , in a lie
and NOT IN TRUTH .
How loving it is aint steven if i were to see a child going in the wrong direction
away from GOD and into a lie , but i just spouted the lie that kept them g oing IN that DIRECTION .
GOD warns , the prophets warned , THE SON warned , the apostels warned .
But st steven , oh he just jumps and leaps like a cheer leader , cheering all on and saying OH GOD IS LOVE
no worries at your end . YOU are actually a co helper NOT to their well being , BUT their destruction .
You aint fooling me . but rather have fooled your own self .
Deconstruction is ya god and you have loved to have it so . But woe un to those
who twist the scrips to fit a lie . A lie cannot save . GOD can , JESUS CAN . so i sug gest
rather than omitting HIS severity , YA START PONTING ALL to CHRIST JESUS and get them back into the bible .
YOU FIRST , cause until you do , well the blind cannot lead the blind . You were warned .
Not because i hate you , but i desired good for you and to make sure none heed your decontructionalist views .

 

[soberxp]

What's the point of evangelism if everyone will automatically be saved?

If Christian Universalism is true, what's the point in evangelism?

Just like the information about UFOs is gradually being understood by the world, whether one believes it or not, the seeds have already been planted, waiting to sprout.

Isn't this a good seed? Don't hurt the seed. Pick out the false information.

 

[ProDeo]

Like what? - LOL

Here is one, there must be more.

We know that even before God created humans the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, meaning God knew in advance the people (or some of them) He would create in His image would turn against Him. And yet He created us anyway. Think about that for a moment. The Lord God did not give up those who would turn against him, but gave them an escape in Jesus Christ, sacrificing a part of Himself. And it must have cost Him dearly. Can you feel the love? It's how God decided to deal with sin.

And mankind was created in His image and live in the presence of God, no sin, no death, only good, no evil.

But sin happened, we read the story in Gen 3, curiosity about that forbidden tree that promised something new, to know about, and experience evil and darkness, the opposite of Him [1 John 1:5]

And so human kind temporarily was removed from His presence and ironically was moved to a place were they got what they desired, a place full of evil, darkness and death in the end, then returning to God, leading the original eternal life God planned from the start.

And it is a lesson to learn, having experienced evil, the Lord may ask : what have you learned ?

And the right answer should sound like : we should have listened and not take the forbidden fruit and we will listen when you give us a new commandment, even if we don't understand.

And the Lord might answer, well done and welcome in My kingdom.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here is one, there must be more.

We know that even before God created humans the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, meaning God knew in advance the people (or some of them) He would create in His image would turn against Him. And yet He created us anyway. Think about that for a moment. The Lord God did not give up those who would turn against him, but gave them an escape in Jesus Christ, sacrificing a part of Himself. And it must have cost Him dearly. Can you feel the love? It's how God decided to deal with sin.

I do not see that scenario at all in Scripture...
First of all, "the founding of the world" was not the creation of the planet as if God planned the fall....and all that followed. What kind of loving God would do that to his own children?
The "founding of the world" alluded to the fall in Eden and "the world" of mankind who descended from Adam...who were all born in sin.

These are the ones Jesus was sent to rescue...why? Because they were thrown into that situation through no fault on their part. Adam and his wife had no sin nature, but were created without defect, so they had no excuse for their disobedience.

I can feel that love.....what about you?

And mankind was created in His image and live in the presence of God, no sin, no death, only good, no evil.

Again where do you get that from? Not Scripture. Humans were designed to live on earth...forever. Not in the presence of God in heaven, as this would instantly kill a mortal being of flesh. God already had a large family of spirit sons in heaven, long before humans were created. They alone were created to dwell in the presence of God. We were a lower creation....

But sin happened, we read the story in Gen 3, curiosity about that forbidden tree that promised something new, to know about, and experience evil and darkness, the opposite of Him [1 John 1:5]

And so human kind temporarily was removed from His presence and ironically was moved to a place were they got what they desired, a place full of evil, darkness and death in the end, then returning to God, leading the original eternal life God planned from the start.

Not what the Bible says at all.....because of sin, humankind were separated from their God in every way. This necessitated the appointment of a "mediator between God and men"....God assigned his son for that position. (1 Tim 2:5-6)
A Mediator is a "go-between" facilitating the restoration of a relationship between two estranged parties. He cannot be one of the parties....so he cannot be God. He is there to reconcile the two parties.

The everlasting life they lost was the one they were supposed to live right here on earth. (Gen 3:22-24) This resulted in an eviction from the garden, out into the land outside, untamed and wild, but now with the ground cursed because of their disobedience, and banned from re-entry into the garden by guardian cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword, they were now to eke out a meager existence, having lost all the wonderful provisions they had originally been given, but now did not deserve. They were stripped of everything except the clothing that God provided for them.

And it is a lesson to learn, having experienced evil, the Lord may ask : what have you learned ?

He could have eliminated the rebels right there and then without violating his perfect justice...death was the penalty and they all deserved it.....but issues were raised by the devil as slander against his Creator....these issues had to be addressed in such a way that they could never be raised again. All of God's angelic sons were watching to see how God would handle the situation.....the devil had come from among them, so God had to prove that this 'upstart', who thought he deserved to be worshipped, and wanted to rule the world, was wrong on all counts.

And the right answer should sound like : we should have listened and not take the forbidden fruit and we will listen when you give us a new commandment, even if we don't understand.

And the Lord might answer, well done and welcome in My kingdom.

If you think this is addressing Adam and his wife, you are dead wrong. There was no way for those original three rebels to ever have another opportunity at life.....they were created sinless, and committed sin as a deliberate act of disobedience, fully aware of the penalty before they committed the crime. There was no basis to forgive them....God sent his son to redeem Adam's children.....and to restore what was lost in Eden for them....unending life in paradise on earth. (Rev 21:2-4)

 

[ProDeo]

@Aunty Jane, please read the conditions of my post :

1. Steven : If Christian Universalism is true, what's the point in evangelism?

2. Me : Then something else is more important.

3. Steven : Like what? - LOL

So that's the framework, UR is true and something else is more important.

So the essence of my post is OBEDIENCE, learned from Gen 3 about the consequences of disobedience, the Earthly experience. Some will learn it in this life, ready for eternal life with rewards, others will have to learn it the hard way in afterlife and it will be not funny.

All under the condition that UR is true.

 

[Lizbeth]

I'm familiar with that argument.
It's sin for us, but not for God.
As if God holds Himself to a lower standard than He holds us to.

You are reasoning with man's reasonings. Do you understand what Godly holy fear is? It is essentially worship. He is WORTHY to be feared, WORTHY to be worshiped, WORTHY of our love and obeisance and subjection, WORTHY of our awe and reverence. And we are NOT worthy...hence the two standards if you want to reason like that. It is simply His just due, because He is the one true and living GOD ALL MIGHTY who created us and gave us life, and sustains our life, and who is thankfully holy, righteous and just, as well as merciful to those who will receive it....He is SO worthy.

Your philosophy wants to put God and man on an equal footing. My, that is deluded thinking there, sorry to say. What is the clay to the Potter? Your philosophy ignores so many scriptures. Maybe you would like to expound on such words and terms as those I have mentioned "perish", "perdition", "destruction" etc. How about "eternal destruction". Want to argue that eternal only means an age? Then you would have to apply that to "eternal life" as well.

 

[amigo de christo]

You are reasoning with man's reasonings. Do you understand what Godly holy fear is? It is essentially worship. He is WORTHY to be feared, WORTHY to be worshiped, WORTHY of our love and obeisance and subjection, WORTHY of our awe and reverence. And we are NOT worthy...hence the two standards if you want to reason like that. It is simply His just due, because He is the one true and living GOD ALL MIGHTY who created us and gave us life, and sustains our life, and who is thankfully holy, righteous and just, as well as merciful to those who will receive it....He is SO worthy.

Your philosophy wants to put God and man on an equal footing. My, that is deluded thinking there, sorry to say. What is the clay to the Potter? Your philosophy ignores so many scriptures. Maybe you would like to expound on such words and terms as those I have mentioned "perish", "perdition", "destruction" etc. How about "eternal destruction". Want to argue that eternal only means an age? Then you would have to apply that to "eternal life" as well.

Rather than preaching the dire need to have to believe on Christ
many had rather beleive something that has led and is leading to
the silencing and overlooking of the one thing that was so necessary for one to be saved and have life .
The gopsel is more and more being seen as not necessary , maybe some benefit ,
but all will be well in the end . But that is not the message CHRIST ever spoke
concerning unbelievers .
IF we want to compare and contrast The approach of Christ and the apostles
Verses to days mindset . You gonna see a huge difference .
They preached the gospel as an absolute necessity for to be saved .
And warned those who refused , of damanation .
There was a real sense of urgency to BELEIVE from them .
A real sense of dire necessity .
YOU dont see that in st steven . And the only time he might bring up something
the gospel , WELL just look at this thread . YOu gonna see he does nothing
but try and plant doubts . HE sat under DECONTRUCTION and loved to have that so .
Its all the wisdom of men sister that more and more now heed , but beleive its the wisdom from GOD .

 

[St. SteVen]

Want to argue that eternal only means an age? Then you would have to apply that to "eternal life" as well.

Fortunately, one age is followed by the next. Not a problem.

 

[amigo de christo]

Fortunately, one age is followed by the next. Not a problem.

dont expect to see those who rather than preaching the absolute dire need to repent and believe on Christ ,
but tried to remove the severity of GOD , IN the KINGDOM at all .
You spend all your time
preaching deconstruction and a man made paradise
Rather than Reminding all of the absolute dire need to have beleived on JESUS the CHRIST .
You will reap a whirlwind of destruction at your end . YOU should have been pointing
to the dire need to have had to have BELEIVED ON JESUS
rather than this junk . Keep on this path and your end will be full of h owling and terror and wailing .
But start afresh in that bible and actually repent and start pointing to CHRIST , well then a good end indeed .
The choice be yours aint steven . As for this sheep , NO MAN gonna silence my voice
and continual reminders of the absolute dire need to have had to have beleived on JESUS for to be saved .
Now if i seem a bit as a hater , or a judgemental monster in your eyes .
HEY there is always the bible . YOU SEE HOW THEY DID T HINGS . cause you missed the mark by a m ile and then some .
POINT to CHRIST and all sound d octrine . Flee deconstruction and never look back .

 

[Lizbeth]

Fortunately, one age is followed by the next. Not a problem.

Have you ever studied out such words as eternity, forever, everlasting, etc in the OT Hebrew? For example Ps. 9:5 says God will destroy the wicked and blot out their name forever. God is not teaching anything different in the new testament Greek.

And I still would like to know how you interpret or teach those words such as perish, perdition, destruction etc. If my understanding is wrong I'm willing to be corrected.....with God's word, not with reasonings out of someone's head.. This is the third time I'm bringing it up. Your friend Episkopos does the same thing as you...he avoids and will not expound his understanding of scriptures that I bring. I have to assume it is because neither of you are able to refute them.

 

[St. SteVen]

Have you ever studied out such words as eternity, forever, everlasting, etc

Somewhat.
It helps to be aware of exaggerated language descriptions used in the Bible. See below.

Edom

Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)

Isaiah 34:8-11 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. 9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! 10 It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again. 11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.

--- COMPARE ---

Revelation 14:11 NIV
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image,
or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

 

[St. SteVen]

Have you ever studied out such words as eternity, forever, everlasting, etc

Kolasis - William Barclay

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13); regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long. In all the cases we have quoted the translation is everlasting or for ever, but in every case the thing described is a human thing, and will sometime come to an end. In every case aionios means lasting for a very long time; it can even mean lasting as long as the present world lasts; but it does not mean lasting for ever and ever throughout eternity.

“The Greek usage of aionios is even more suggestive. Plato in the Laws (10.12) says that body and soul are indestructible (anolethron), but they are not eternal (aionios) like the gods. In the Timaeus he says that time as we know it in this world is formed on the model of the nature which is aionios, eternal. The fact is that in Greek aionios can properly only describe that which is divine; in the true sense of the term only God is aionios. Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.

“I can therefore be seen that the phrase in Matthew 25.46 does not commit us to a doctrine of eternal punishment in the sense in which it is usually taken. It may well describe a disciplinary, curative punishment, and it certainly describes the punishment which only God can inflict.”

~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189-190

 

[St. SteVen]

Have you ever studied out such words as eternity, forever, everlasting, etc

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[Lizbeth]

Somewhat.
It helps to be aware of exaggerated language descriptions used in the Bible. See below.

Edom

Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)

Isaiah 34:8-11 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. 9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! 10 It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again. 11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.

--- COMPARE ---

Revelation 14:11 NIV
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image,
or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Edom was a literal kingdom, however it is also allegorical for what Rev. 14 is talking about. It's destruction as a literal kingdom is/was forever....since it has never risen again as a kingdom. As also the destruction of those who worship the beast will be forever. The word "forever" in Hebrew is olam, which literally means perpetual, everlasting, always. No reference to a finite "age".

 

[Lizbeth]

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

I'm not a Greek scholar......but if we want to understand the meaning then my point was to suggest comparing the ideas being conveyed using that word with the same ideas being conveyed in OT Hebrew. The words forever, everlasting, eternal etc in Hebrew have no reference to a finite age, as I just mentioned above. I gave the example of Psalm 9:5 which talks about God destroying the wicked and blotting out their name forever and ever. Which is clearly quite literally forever and ever with no possibility of confusing it with an age. It agrees with how aion/aionios has been translated in the NT concerning God's final judgment, on individual souls and on the world.

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm not a Greek scholar......but if we want to understand the meaning then my point was to suggest comparing the ideas being conveyed using that word with the same ideas being conveyed in OT Hebrew. The words forever, everlasting, eternal etc in Hebrew have no reference to a finite age, as I just mentioned above. I gave the example of Psalm 9:5 which talks about God destroying the wicked and blotting out their name forever and ever. Which is clearly quite literally forever and ever with no possibility of confusing it with an age. It agrees with how aion/aionios has been translated in the NT concerning God's final judgment, on individual souls and on the world.

sister i aint scholar or greek . but it dont take one to see what st stevens been up to all along .
On the Day of all mighty GOD and of the Lamb
many gonna wish they had not done what they done . Lest ye become as children you shall in no wise
enter into the KINGDOM .
child like faith . Just simply BELEIVE .
Now strap the battle boots on my dear sister . To the trenches to defend and contend for simplicity in CHRIST .

 

[St. SteVen]

Edom was a literal kingdom, however it is also allegorical for what Rev. 14 is talking about. It's destruction as a literal kingdom is/was forever....since it has never risen again as a kingdom. As also the destruction of those who worship the beast will be forever. The word "forever" in Hebrew is olam, which literally means perpetual, everlasting, always. No reference to a finite "age".

A quality, not a quantity.
The exaggerated language is a literary device.