If OSAS is false, then what?

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PinSeeker

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Did you see to whom I was responding? Aunty Jane mistakenly believes that there will be a Paradise on earth for Christians. She does not know that Paradise is in the New Jerusalem in Heaven and will remain there. And the New Jerusalem is the eternal abode of the children of God.
The New Jerusalem comes down to us, Enoch. Jesus brings it to us in His return (after the final Judgment). Revelation 21 is very clear on that:

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." (Revelation 21:1-4)​

Heaven and earth will finally be one again, and there will be no more separation. Well, except for those remaining dead in their sin; they will depart. And... oh, yes, it will be Paradise. Paradise restored. All things will be made new, as God says in the very next verse (Revelation 21:5).

Grace and peace to all.
 

Lambano

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Im still just as confused now as at the beginning. If OSAS isnt true, then how do you know you are saved one day from the next?? So if im saved right now, could i not be saved 10 mins from now???
If OSAS isnt true, then i feel like all of 1 john would be made into a lie. Theres no way to have assurance without OSAS. 1 john was written so that we may know we are saved and have assurance.
Option 1: Worry about not being elect and thus being completely unsaveable since the beginning of time.

Option 2: Worry about losing your salvation every 10 minutes.

Damn, religion can sure make a person neurotic.

:rolleyes:
 
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Lifelong_sinner

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Did you see to whom I was responding? Aunty Jane mistakenly believes that there will be a Paradise on earth for Christians. She does not know that Paradise is in the New Jerusalem in Heaven and will remain there. And the New Jerusalem is the eternal abode of the children of God.

oh, no wonder i didnt know what you were talking about. I have her and other JWs on ignore.
 

bbyrd009

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ah yes Paul, being "crystal clear"
lol
best o'luck to you guys k
Option 1: Worry about not being elect and thus being completely unsaveable since the beginning of time.

Option 2: Worry about losing your salvation every 10 minutes.

Damn, religion can sure make a person neurotic.

:rolleyes:
gee, i wonder why Jesus had nothing but dis for the religious, while praising the atheist and the pagan :)
 

ScottA

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“The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20-22) No OSAS there.
That is because salvation had not yet come:

But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7:39​
 

Lambano

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gee, i wonder why Jesus had nothing but dis for the religious, while praising the atheist and the pagan :)
Luke 7:9
Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, “I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith.”
 
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Enoch111

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The New Jerusalem comes down to us, Enoch.
It comes down to us AS A HEAVENLY BODY. How do so many people miss this? It is a city which is 1500 cubic miles in dimension. It will replace the sun, and the light of God and Christ will provide light to the earth. And the saints will dwell therein. Unless it is a heavenly body, how will it give light to the whole earth? And unless it descends from the third heaven (God's Heaven) to the first heaven (the atmospheric heaven) how will it give light to the while earth? And since the Tree of Life is within the Paradise of God, we know that there will be no Paradise on earth.

THE NEW JERUSALEM DESCENDS "OUT OF" HEAVEN
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

THE NEW JERUSALEM REPLACES THE SUN
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it...

GOD'S SERVANTS WILL BE WITHIN IT AND SEE HIS FACE
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

GOD'S LIGHT LIGHTS UP THE NEW JERUSALEM AND THE EARTH
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev 21:10,22-24; 22:3-5)

This passage itself proves the eternal security of the believer, and that the children of God will be eternal kings and priests, and reign with Christ forever.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Did you see to whom I was responding? Aunty Jane mistakenly believes that there will be a Paradise on earth for Christians. She does not know that Paradise is in the New Jerusalem in Heaven and will remain there. And the New Jerusalem is the eternal abode of the children of God.
What if it’s you who is mistaken?
It bemuses me to hear that many of those who identify as “Christians” imagine that you are all going to heaven......where does it say that paradise is heaven? The word “paradise” means ‘a park-like garden’ So is that where you imagine your ‘afterlife’ to be?

Where was the first paradise? And if we were ever supposed to go to heaven, why would God put us here on earth as material creatures? God has a family of spirit beings in heaven who never needed to “train” for heaven because God put them there before he even created the material universe.

What did God tell the first humans to do? And where do we find death mentioned as a natural occurrence for the end of their earthly life? Was Adam ever told that death would lead to either “heaven or hell”?
Death was only mentioned as a consequence of disobedience.....humans have no ‘program’ for death because it was never meant to happen. It is something we fight, like ageing and sickness....these are the product of sin. Living forever on this earth was God’s first purpose.....he gave the first humans a blueprint in the garden of Eden for what he wanted the rest of the planet to look like. There was no need to go to heaven.....our everlasting paradise was to be enjoyed right here, with all the other creatures that were created to share life with us......forever. Adam and his wife ruined that for all their children.....Jesus came to get it back to us because it was never in God’s plan for human beings to die. “The tree of life” was there in the garden to guarantee that physical life would not end......when sin entered into the world, God denied access to the “tree of life”, which would eventually lead to their death. The “trees of life” are not mentioned again until Revelation. We will have access to them again.

When the criminal who was hung alongside Jesus asked to be remembered when he got into his Kingdom, Jesus’ reply was “truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.” What was Jesus promising this man? Was it heaven? Only the “elect” (chosen ones, also called “holy ones”) were promised heaven and the roles they will play there......that of “kings and priests” (Revelation 20:6) This man did not qualify for heaven because he had no record of a faithful course prior to his death.

Revelation 21:1-4 indicates where humankind will live once the Kingdom “comes” and God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”.....what did Jesus say?.....”the meek shall inherit the earth” not heaven. He also said that “the pure in heart will see God”....these would be the elect for those who understand what Jesus and his apostles taught.

There are two distinct groups that are “saved”....the “elect” who were to be transformed (born again) as spirit beings, who will join Jesus in heaven as our heavenly government.....and those who will live on earth will be their subjects.
Paul made reference to these two groups in 1 Corinthians 1:2.....Jesus was the “Lord” of both groups.

You are all labouring under a false hope IMO.....there is no heaven for the majority of us and that is OK. I have no objection whatsoever to living forever in paradise on earth....do you?

It is God who chooses his elect, and we have no say in that. Wherever God wants his faithful ones to be, is going to be our reward for our faithfulness in this life. Death cannot separate us from that hope, (whether earthly or heavenly) because Jesus will be the one appointed to resurrect those of us who die either faithful or unfaithful. (John 5:28-29) He will call them from their graves, because the dead are all still in them. This is what resurrection is....a return to life, not a continuation of it. There is no immortal soul.

As to the OP, OSAS has no bearing on any of what Jesus taught. If we want what God is offering us, we will be mindful of the standards that God puts forward in his word and strive to keep them. We have to adhere to the Bible’s teachings if we want to experience what God has promised......but first of all we have to know what that promise is...
 

Renniks

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if OSAS is false, how do you have any assurance? Ever?
If OSAS is false, are you saying that sin no longer matters?
What is the average amount of times in a day do you have to get saved?
I don't understand the question. Why would sin not matter if OSAS if false? You don't get saved over and over every day. You are saved unless you deliberately walk away from faith.
 

Lifelong_sinner

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I don't understand the question. Why would sin not matter if OSAS if false? You don't get saved over and over every day. You are saved unless you deliberately walk away from faith.

do you understand the doctrine of OSAS?? You arminians say we can lose our salvation. Sin would be the only thing that could cause this. If a person walks away from the faith, they were never saved to begin with. To deny OSAS, is to say that 1 john is a lie, and its also nothing but easy believism.
 

kcnalp

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That kind of remark is not only insulting to God, but it is completely false. It is one thing to say that you believe that salvation can be lost. It is quite another thing to make an incendiary remark like that, which has no basis in truth.
Since paradise is now in Heaven, your theory has no basis in Bible fact. Paradise will not be returning to earth.
Satan LOVES OSAS! He wants our company in Hell, "forever and ever".
 
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Lambano

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do you understand the doctrine of OSAS?? You arminians say we can lose our salvation. Sin would be the only thing that could cause this. If a person walks away from the faith, they were never saved to begin with. To deny OSAS, is to say that 1 john is a lie, and its also nothing but easy believism.
Let me explain Reformation Arminian theology again. You need to know what Arminians really believe. Justification is by faith. Salvation is by grace through faith. Sola Fide, the motto of the Reformation. You should know this. You cannot lose your salvation by sin; if you lose it, it is by abandoning faith in Christ. And make no mistake about it; people can and do abandon the faith. One of the main purposes of Hebrews is to warn believers of that danger. And do not interpret abandonment as “they were never saved to begin with”; that is imposing Calvinist theology onto Arminian theology.

Pay attention; this will be on the pop quiz.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Hello all. No doubt, the question of OSAS has been a huge debate around here as of late. And for the most part, i feel like we know who is for and against it.

so what i’d like to know, if OSAS isnt true, then what is true? I’ve never gotten an honest answer from those on this forum as to this question. And my main thoughts on this are, 1. If OSAS isnt true, then what is the requirement to get to Heaven? 2. Since sin no longer matters, are we free to just live however we want?
1. The requirement of salvation is giving one's heart/mind/might/soul to God. Accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior & following Him.
2. Sin matters! Our Lord commands us to forsake it & repent. Which is a continual process.

This biggest difference between OAS and non-OSASA views is that I (a non-OSAS person) do believe a person still has a choice in the matter -- I'm not being help captive. Discipleship is a lifetime+ journey. Not just a "recite this 'I believe document' and then you can never fall!" (which, in all fairness I find most OSAS people don't believe either). I don't live in fear of damnation at all, frankly the entire topic isn't even on my mind.
 
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Brakelite

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if OSAS is false, how do you have any assurance? Ever?

The Pearl
Matthew 13:45, 46.
The blessings of redeeming love our Saviour compared to a precious pearl. He illustrated His lesson by the parable of the merchantman seeking goodly pearls “who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.” Christ Himself is the pearl of great price.
In the parable the pearl is not represented as a gift. The merchantman bought it at the price of all that he had. Many question the meaning of this, since Christ is represented in the Scriptures as a gift. He is a gift, but only to those who give themselves, soul, body, and spirit, to Him without reserve. We are to give ourselves to Christ, to live a life of willing obedience to all His requirements. All that we are, all the talents and capabilities we possess, are the Lord's, to be consecrated to His service. When we thus give ourselves wholly to Him, Christ, with all the treasures of heaven, gives Himself to us. We obtain the pearl of great price.

Salvation is a free gift, and yet it is to be bought and sold. In the market of which divine mercy has the management, the precious pearl is represented as being bought without money and without price. In this market all may obtain the goods of heaven. The treasury of the jewels of truth is open to all. “Behold, I have set before thee an open door,” the Lord declares, “and no man can shut it.” No sword guards the way through this door. Voices from within and at the door say, Come. The Saviour's voice earnestly and lovingly invites us: “I counsel thee to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich.” Revelation 3:8, 18.

The gospel of Christ is a blessing that all may possess. The poorest are as well able as the richest to purchase salvation; for no amount of worldly wealth can secure it. It is obtained by willing obedience, by giving ourselves to Christ as His own purchased possession. Education, even of the highest class, cannot of itself bring a man nearer to God. The Pharisees were favored with every temporal and every spiritual advantage, and they said with boastful pride, We are “rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing”; yet they were “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.” Revelation 3:17. Christ offered them the pearl of great price; but they disdained to accept it, and He said to them, “The publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.” Matthew 21:31.

We cannot earn salvation, but we are to seek for it with as much interest and perseverance as though we would abandon everything in the world for it.
We are to seek for the pearl of great price, but not in worldly marts or in worldly ways. The price we are required to pay is not gold or silver, for this belongs to God. Abandon the idea that temporal or spiritual advantages will win for you salvation. God calls for your willing obedience. He asks you to give up your sins. “To him that overcometh,” Christ declares, “will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne.” Revelation 3:21.

There are some who seem to be always seeking for the heavenly pearl. But they do not make an entire surrender of their wrong habits. They do not die to self that Christ may live in them. Therefore they do not find the precious pearl. They have not overcome unholy ambition and their love for worldly attractions. They do not take up the cross and follow Christ in the path of self-denial and sacrifice. Almost Christians, yet not fully Christians, they seem near the kingdom of heaven, but they cannot enter there. Almost but not wholly saved, means to be not almost but wholly lost.

The parable of the merchantman seeking goodly pearls has a double significance: it applies not only to men as seeking the kingdom of heaven, but to Christ as seeking His lost inheritance. Christ, the heavenly merchantman seeking goodly pearls, saw in lost humanity the pearl of price. In man, defiled and ruined by sin, He saw the possibilities of redemption. Hearts that have been the battleground of the conflict with Satan, and that have been rescued by the power of love, are more precious to the Redeemer than are those who have never fallen. God looked upon humanity, not as vile and worthless; He looked upon it in Christ, saw it as it might become through redeeming love. He collected all the riches of the universe, and laid them down in order to buy the pearl. And Jesus, having found it, resets it in His own diadem. “For they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon His land.” Zechariah 9:16. “They shall be Mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up My jewels.” Malachi 3:17
But Christ as the precious pearl, and our privilege of possessing this heavenly treasure, is the theme on which we most need to dwell. It is the Holy Spirit that reveals to men the preciousness of the goodly pearl. The time of the Holy Spirit's power is the time when in a special sense the heavenly gift is sought and found. In Christ's day many heard the gospel, but their minds were darkened by false teaching, and they did not recognize in the humble Teacher of Galilee the Sent of God. But after Christ's ascension His enthronement in His mediatorial kingdom was signalized by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. On the day of Pentecost the Spirit was given. Christ's witnesses proclaimed the power of the risen Saviour. The light of heaven penetrated the darkened minds of those who had been deceived by the enemies of Christ. They now saw Him exalted to be “a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.” Acts 5:31. They saw Him encircled with the glory of heaven, with infinite treasures in His hands to bestow upon all who would turn from their rebellion. As the apostles set forth the glory of the Only-Begotten of the Father, three thousand souls were convicted. They were made to see themselves as they were, sinful and polluted, and Christ as their friend and Redeemer. Christ was lifted up, Christ was glorified, through the power of the Holy Spirit resting upon men. By faith these believers saw Him as the One who had borne humiliation, suffering, and death that they might not perish but have everlasting life. The revelation of Christ by the Spirit brought to them a realizing sense of His power and majesty, and they stretched forth their hands to Him by faith, saying, “I believe.”

Then the glad tidings of a risen Saviour were carried to the uttermost bounds of the inhabited world. The church beheld converts flocking to her from all directions. Believers were reconverted. Sinners united with Christians in seeking the pearl of great price. The prophecy was fulfilled, The weak shall be “as David,” and the house of David “as the angel of the Lord.” Zechariah 12:8. Every Christian saw in his brother the divine similitude of benevolence and love. One interest prevailed. One object swallowed up all others. All hearts beat in harmony. The only ambition of the believers was to reveal the likeness of Christ's character, and to labor for the enlargement of His kingdom. “The multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul.... With great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus; and great grace was upon them all.” Acts 4:32, 33. “And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” Acts 2:47. The Spirit of Christ animated the whole congregation; for they had found the pearl of great price.

These scenes are to be repeated, and with greater power. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost was the former rain, but the latter rain will be more abundant. The Spirit awaits our demand and reception. Christ is again to be revealed in His fulness by the Holy Spirit's power. Men will discern the value of the precious pearl, and with the apostle Paul they will say, “What things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord.” Philippians 3:7, 8.
Christ's Object Lessons
 

Lambano

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To deny OSAS, is to say that 1 john is a lie,…
I don’t see where you’re getting that. 1 John 5:13 is exhorting his readers to continue on in the faith, not guaranteeing that they will.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 
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Renniks

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do you understand the doctrine of OSAS?? You arminians say we can lose our salvation. Sin would be the only thing that could cause this. If a person walks away from the faith, they were never saved to begin with. To deny OSAS, is to say that 1 john is a lie, and its also nothing but easy believism.
That is a strange conclusion. Actually lots of people would say that OSAS is easy believism. If you can't lose your salvation no matter what why try not to sin?
Unbelief is what causes you to lose your salvation. It's the only sin that can't be forgiven. We are saved by faith and only losing faith can lead to loss of salvation.
Actually for Calvinism, it's "perseverance of the Saints," not OSAS.
 

kcnalp

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Option 1: Worry about not being elect and thus being completely unsaveable since the beginning of time.

Option 2: Worry about losing your salvation every 10 minutes.

Damn, religion can sure make a person neurotic.

:rolleyes:
All of your concerns are answered in the Bible.
 

Lifelong_sinner

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Ok. I think i’m seeing where yall arminians are coming from. And its a bit scary to me. From what yall have said, i would be considered saved. :eek::eek::eek::eek:
I could never be arminian, yall see things as being much easier, simpler, and more joyful than i do. Yall must see God much more differently than i do as well. No wonder yall dont worry about judgement day. If i was armenian, i wouldnt either. Wow, i honestly never realized how different calvinism is from armenianism. But i’ll always be calvinist.