If the second coming happens before the thousand years?

[Marty fox]

How can the thousand years start 40 years prior to Armageddon?

Because your thinking what the thousand years is is wrong

we reign in life now over death and sin

 

[Marty fox]

Armageddon cannot have occurred yet as none of the surrounding events also mentioned in scripture occurred back in the late first century times. One big one is the second appearing of Christ. There is only ever a second time, not a third, fourth etc... appearing of Christ.

Yes there is only one second appearing of Jesus and it’s in the future I am referring to His coMing in judgement which isn’t an appearing

 

[Scott Downey]

But the Op is presenting an Amil argument. He believes in a future coming of Christ. Can you not address his argument?

I was not talking to the OP was I.

 

[Timtofly]

Armageddon is not even mentioned there. You force it into the text to support your error. This again shows us that Premils are not literalists, only when it suits their theology.

Really? You force a Second Coming into the text of Revelation 20 to suit your theology. In fact you claim this final battle of Armageddon is in Revelation 20 yourself, when not mentioned in the text. You claim this is the end in all your recaps, even when shown different circumstances and outcomes.

 

[Marty fox]

You are thinking of the 7th vial.

The 6th vial gathers all humanity to Armageddon to fight the Lamb.

The city does not move. Human armies move.

Once again in Revelation 17:12-14

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

These armies gather to fight the Lamb.

These kings don't attack Babylon. They watch her burn to the ground.

"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."

Satan's empire comes crashing down. Those kings still have to fight the Lamb. Where else, but in Revelation 19 is this battle? Is Jesus not the Lamb they fight?


"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Their empire was destroyed, and now Satan, the FP, and the beast with nothing left, come with what is left of humanity to Armageddon.

Of course no more humans are left alive. The sheep and the wheat are part of the Lamb's army, who now are given the earth as their inheritance. They have been waiting on the sea of glass in Revelation 15, until the 42 months were over. They are the remnant of all mankind who like Noah, after the Flood populate the earth, after the cleansing fire of the Second Coming. They are the final harvest gathered before Satan even sets up His AoD on earth for 42 months.

No one is saved post Revelation 13. They are gathered before the AoD even starts. Those who choose God in this 42 months are those beheaded people who are now physically dead. That is what happens when your head is chopped off. You physically die. That is not metaphor or symbolism. They literally are beheaded. They are resurrected and given permanent incorruptible physical bodies to live on earth for 1,000 years. They are not the church glorified. If that were the case they would have been raptured at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal back in Revelation 6.

Amil conflate a literal physical beheading and resurrection with the second birth via the Holy Spirit. They are so adamant that there cannot be a future 1,000 year reign of Christ, they cannot even get a physical beheading and physical resurrection correct in their interpretation of Scripture.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. It is to destroy humanity that was given a 42 month extension to choose God, thus have a chance to chop off their heads to make that choice. No one makes it to the end alive. They are all dead. Those who remain in the Lamb's book of life chopped their heads off. The rest were killed at Armageddon in Revelation 19.

There is a physical resurrection in Revelation 20:4. That is how those beheaded enter the Millennium. They are physically given a permanent incorruptible physical body. They reign with Christ on earth. They are saved as a firebrand snatched out of the fire. But certainly are not given the same reward and life as the glorified church.

If Amil deny all these points, they work themselves into an impossible situation. Even people who claim Revelation 19 is the Second Coming, are forced into making up explanations, instead of just normal interpretation of Scripture. Revelation 15:2 explains where the redeemed are during these last 42 months when Satan is in charge on the earth.

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

Is there a strong argument these are not who comes back with Jesus in Revelation 19?

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Does not an army occupy the land they take back from the enemy?

I’ll have to get back to this later but if you think that the beast and these kings destroy Babylon the great how about these verses?

Revelation 17:16-18
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes there is only one sec appearing of Jesus and it’s in the future I am referring to His com in judgement which isn’t an appearing

The reformed theology claiming Matthew 24:29-31 below is a "Symbolic" Judgemebt upon Israel is a joke, it represents a literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ after a "Future" Great Tribulation

Yes reformed theology changes the literal second coming seen to allow for their 70AD Jerusalem events, a farce

Reformed preterist eschatology can't have a 70AD Great Tribulation and a "Future" second coming, so they remove the second coming seen below with the magic wand of symbolic allegory "A Lie"!

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Timtofly]

Because your thinking what the thousand years is is wrong

we reign in life now over death and sin

No, you claim Armageddon was in 70AD, and the 1,000 years started in 30AD. It does not matter how you define 1,000.

Why is there a battle to defeat the Lamb, 40 years after the 1,000 years already started?

Is every battle in this 1,000 years an attack on the Lamb? Why are there battles throughout this time, when Scripture never claims there are battles? In fact Satan was bound so no battles would ever happen.

"to gather them together to battle"

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Does this not say the dragon had a spirit sent out? This is something that is not supposed to happen while Satan is bound. Yet you have Armageddon 40 years after the 1,000 years already started.

 

[Timtofly]

I’ll have to get back to this later but if you think that the beast and these kings destroy Babylon the great how about these verses?

Revelation 17:16-18
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

Because it is her religion they destroy.

Why are they upset in these verses:

"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."

 

[WPM]

Really? You force a Second Coming into the text of Revelation 20 to suit your theology. In fact you claim this final battle of Armageddon is in Revelation 20 yourself, when not mentioned in the text. You claim this is the end in all your recaps, even when shown different circumstances and outcomes.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

Jesus says “Heaven and earth shall pass away" you say "no, that will not happen Jesus, i know better."

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Peter says “the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved," you say "no, that will not happen Peter, I know better."

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

John says “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away," you say "no, that will not happen John, I know better."

Amils go with Jesus, Peter and John here rather than you.

 

[ScottA]

Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

If this was before the thousand years then who would be around for it if the flesh of all people were eaten by the birds?

And...when should it be said that birds began to eat the flesh of the dead?

 

[WPM]

And...when should it be said that birds began to eat the flesh of the dead?

When He returns at the end.

 

[ScottA]

When He returns at the end.

No birds have ever eaten men's flesh yet?

 

[WPM]

No birds have ever eaten men's flesh yet?

How about reading what I wrote. It is yet future!

 

[ScottA]

How about reading what I wrote. It is yet future!

So much for giving you a clue about the [actual] timing.

How about this one:

Revelation 19:17-18​

Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [a]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”​

​

Could "all" [actually] mean all (--like it actually says), or just "future" people?

 

[WPM]

So much for giving you a clue about the [actual] timing.

How about this one:

Revelation 19:17-18​

Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [a]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”​

​

Could "all" [actually] mean all (--like it actually says), or just "future" people?

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldnt wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world. Revelation 20 starts the 7th of 7 parallels.

 

[ewq1938]

Kind of yes But its not the antichrist it’s the beast as John describes the beast and their purposes different

The battle at Armageddon was Rome destroying Jerusalem in 70AD and the people were the Jews who realize that they rejected and killed their God and messiah

Arm is 66 miles away from Jerusalem. You are clearly very very badly interpreting that to force something there that does not belong.

 

[ewq1938]

The thousand years started at the cross

Impossible since the actual thousand years in Rev 20 doesn't even start until those who were murdered for refusing the mark of the beast are resurrected. The resurrection happens at the second coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

Jesus says “Heaven and earth shall pass away" you say "no, that will not happen Jesus, i know better."

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Peter says “the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved," you say "no, that will not happen Peter, I know better."

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

John says “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away," you say "no, that will not happen John, I know better."

Amils go with Jesus, Peter and John here rather than you.

God’s Word also claims Jesus reigns for 1,000 years before creation is handed back. I take God’s Word over your imagined opinion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

well makes no sense, it's been 2000 years and Christians worldwide are still being oppressed by the current evil age.

Keep in mind, Scott, that the people who invented the "1000 years equals the NT age" theory came up with that theory well before the 1st 1000 years of NT history were completed! Now that 1000 years have passed, not much more can be said for that theory except as a vague kind of symbolism, with the equation: 1000 years symbolically = 2000+ literal years! That's very suspect to me!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Just to be clear, the *literal view* of Rev 20 is that there will be a *literal* 1000 years of Christ's reign after the 2nd Coming of Jesus. It is at the end of that 1000 year period that Satan is released to regather people who are not committed to Christ for a final rebellion against Christ. One may, from his position, call this an "ultra-literal view." But he may *not* say it is a "non-literal view!"