If You Believe Your Denomination Is...

[Illuminator]

The word anathema ring a bell?
Fine. Interpret this....

• Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true... For roughly 1500 years this precept was not only conceptually acceptable but unapologetically practiced, with a vengeance. Starting possibly with the persecutions against the Aryans after the councils presided over by Constantine and continued down through the ages against every possible variant to Catholicism that her tentacles could reach to.

• In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship... This, in the latter part of the 19th century an affirmation of 1500 years of dogmatic intolerance...

• It has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship... This is interesting... In Catholic countries. Now it is supposed that Vatican II (your olive branch I suppose) by some, ( because there is still much debate in Catholic circles how to reconcile quantum quora with Vatican II) repudiates1500 years of papal teaching and practice. Except in Catholic countries. Like Spain for example. If Spain once again became a Catholic theocracy then it is assumed that intolerance would again apply correct?

So tell me please.

And please be honest.

You got caught in a lie about Pope Pius and are squirming your way out of it, here you regurgitate Seventh Day Adventist propaganda, a cult well known for it's hatred, and you say "please be honest".

If the United States gained a Catholic majority in the Senate or the Congress, like it presently has in the USSC, or the present administration although ostensibly Protestant decided for some mad reason to give Rome some semblance of authority over the religious life of the nation, how long before the constitution is torn up and the intolerance advocated in the above exercised in the USA?

That's a fantasy the SDA has dreamed up in the hopes it will fulfil its false prophecies.

I accept nothing from anybody unless I trust them. What evidence, apart from words, can you offer me to prove the Catholic Church is no longer the persecuting intolerant murderous entity it was for 1500 years?

Anyone with two functioning brain cells won't accept this absurd rant.

Oh, and don't sound away into Protestant intolerance. I don't trust Protestant Governments any more than Catholic ones, particularly ones that have Catholic judges deciding on constitutional matters. Now, right now, at this point in time, it isn't so much of an issue I grant you. But tomorrow... Tomorrow, under crisis of repeated disasters as foretold in scripture and churches who have the ear of government believe they only way to protect themselves from God's judgements is to have government legislate moral church born dogma... Catholic dogma...

Moral teachings are objective truths that apply to the human race that you are trying to demonize. Catechism of the Catholic Church - The morality of human acts
You trust no one but your false prophet Ellen G. White
that your own SDA scholars are pleading to upgrade.
SDA: Seventh Dilemma Adventism

 

[Brakelite]

Anyone with two functioning brain cells won't accept this absurd rant.

You are quite correct.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Do you believe God sends some to certain Church's for "a season"? Maybe for lessons we might not even realize until down the road.

And, maybe it is NOT God sending people to certain Church's...I'm sure He is not sending His children to erroneous Church's...and I bet all of them would say that God sent them there...?

Geographical location of where you were raised has alot to do with which church you attend.
When I was working in pipeline construction I traveled to many different states and in one state it was primarily Baptist churches, another Latter Day Saints, another Pentecostal....there would be other denominations but it usually was a small church compared to the dominant churches....
What has been happening in the last 2 decades is the rise of Megachurches that claim to be non-denominational so as to attract people of all faiths.
Denominations are losing their popularity....well the top 10 most popular ones anyway. People today don't want to associate with denominational churches because of their doctrines that they must agree with to become a member.

 

[Brakelite]

Denominations are losing their popularity....well the top 10 most popular ones anyway.

Ummmm, not all.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Ummmm, not all.

FactChecker: Are All Christian Denominations in Decline?
U.S. Church Membership Down Sharply in Past Two Decades

 

[Brakelite]

FactChecker: Are All Christian Denominations in Decline?
U.S. Church Membership Down Sharply in Past Two Decades

Not that I'm gloating or I could end up like Nebuchadnezzar. We know that the world population is increasing exponentially. Adventist membership has grown nearly 1,000 times as much as global population, the world’s population has grown since 1863 at around 537 percent, but Adventist membership has grown by 502,700 percent. The membership now is around 21 million.
If course not everyone of those members are fully functioning disciples... As in all churches there are tares. But we are growing particularly in Asia and Africa... Not so much in Europe North America or Australia... As likely is the case for most churches.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Not that I'm gloating or I could end up like Nebuchadnezzar. We know that the world population is increasing exponentially. Adventist membership has grown nearly 1,000 times as much as global population, the world’s population has grown since 1863 at around 537 percent, but Adventist membership has grown by 502,700 percent. The membership now is around 21 million.
If course not everyone of those members are fully functioning disciples... As in all churches there are tares. But we are growing particularly in Asia and Africa... Not so much in Europe North America or Australia... As likely is the case for most churches.

Adventist are not considered the main denominations in the stats.

 

[Taken]

If you believe your denomination is teaching something that is closer to the truth than others, does that necessarily mean you are narrow-minded or elitist or, worse yet, look down on those of other faiths?

Regardless of what denomination an individual adopts as their own...

IMO the matter hinges on the individuals responsibility to verify Scripturally what they hear.

It is well known some denominations...write, establish, promote, use...books, materials, etc. outside of Scripture ...
FOR "interpretations" and "explaining" OF Scripture.

Anyone can READ the Scriptures...but THEN... everyone "WANTS" to Understand WHAT is the meaning of the Scripture and how it relates (positively or negatively) TO THEM (specific).

A "sideline" Book/Materials of interpretations;
Is going to come with "BIAS" of men's opinions....intended to sway the listener to accepting "their" interpretation.

People want to argue their interpretation to sway another. A simple disagreeing, is sort of a let down for being unable to sway another... so name-calling- / accusations leveled at the other seems to be a self-satisfactory deflection, that they are right, the disagreeing person is wrong and the matter is settled in their mind...when the fact is all that really Occured is: a disagreement on interpretation...
Not a settling in terms of Right or Wrong.

Not sure it hinges on elitist or looking down on an other...but moreso...every Individual of course is going to Believe according to his own understanding...
Whether his understanding is of his own effort, an others Opinion, or Gods Gift of Gods Understanding...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Yes, tradition plays a big role in Catholicism.

Agree.

We have the Magisterium, which is made up of church leaders. The magisterium see’s to it that no one takes us captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ (Colossians 2:8).

Col 2:
[4] And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

A couple of questions.

1) question 1
Why is "your responsibility" to Beware, handed over to Your church leaders?

* The following was declared by one of Your church leaders of what your Church leaders in 1854 believed, and henceforth, what every member of your church should firmly and consistently believe...(only if you ARE faithful...otherwise the implication is you would not be faithful).

"We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.

Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, 1854

This appears as a NEW Tradition being "Introduced" and thus "Established", by men, to men.
( with the added inference...if you don't believe this...you are not faithful)


2) question 2
Where is "this (166 yr old) Doctrine", that (a woman named Mary, was naturally Born without sin) held IN Scriptural Doctrine?

Thanks,
Taken

 

[Marymog]

Agree.



Col 2:
[4] And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Thanks,
Taken

Hi Taken,

Are you “any man”?

 

[Marymog]

A couple of questions.

1) question 1
Why is "your responsibility" to Beware, handed over to Your church leaders?

Thanks,
Taken

Hi Taken,

I follow Scripture: Hebrews 13:17

 

[Marymog]

2) question 2
Where is "this (166 yr old) Doctrine", that (a woman named Mary, was naturally Born without sin) held IN Scriptural Doctrine?

Thanks,
Taken

Hi Taken,

The truth never changes. The Church may become more enlightened to the Truth over time and write it into doctrine when there are challenges to that Truth (think Gnosticism). The Church gives us doctrine (the truth) that is bound in heaven and on earth; just like scripture says. If we refuse to accept that doctrine from The Church we are to be treated as a pagan or tax collector; just like Scripture says.

The Church gave you 27 books to read. I assume you accept the Truth that the 27 books you quote from are inspired by God? Who gave you those 27 books? Answer: The Church. The same Church that gives you doctrine.

Mary

 

[Nancy]

Geographical location of where you were raised has alot to do with which church you attend.
When I was working in pipeline construction I traveled to many different states and in one state it was primarily Baptist churches, another Latter Day Saints, another Pentecostal....there would be other denominations but it usually was a small church compared to the dominant churches....
What has been happening in the last 2 decades is the rise of Megachurches that claim to be non-denominational so as to attract people of all faiths.
Denominations are losing their popularity....well the top 10 most popular ones anyway. People today don't want to associate with denominational churches because of their doctrines that they must agree with to become a member.

Yeah, geography I'm sure has much to do with where one goes. At least my city is larger...even though the South part of it (where I live) has either a Catholic Church or a bar on the corners! It IS the Irish center of Buffalo .... and my moms side of the family (Irish through and through) alcoholism ran rampant.
The mega church's yes indeed are growing fast and do attract many of the younger folks. Their "non-denom." titles I see as the start of the Ecumenical movement (which has actually already started) I remember being warned of this movement back in the early 1990's in a bible study.
I cannot say that my own church would ever go that way as, they are quite biblical but, if they did...I would stop going there...how can they trade truth for unity???

 

[Taken]

,...don't miss the point I am making when I say Catholicism is a different religion than the rest.
Why is it different?
Catholicism, by your own admission, is a form of religion/faith based on what you call sacred tradition.

Agree.
"Sacred Tradition", sounds holy...sounds like it is holding to a LONG history of "Traditions" Scripturally Established...
Doesn't sound "like a New Tradition" Established 166 years ago....

(Catholics) You as much admit this yourself many times when you claim the CC is the final authority because, you say, the church is the foundation of truth.

The Church Jesus identified in Scripture is:
Matt 16:
[17] ... Jesus ... said ...
[18] ... my church...

So it is futile for Protestants and Catholics to debate ... doctrine...

Because the Doctrines are Different...
Agree.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Hi Taken,

Are you “any man”?

Hi Taken,

Are you “any man”?

Mary - Seriously?
Are you unaware All Humans fall within the description of "ANY man"?

The point is to Beware of any man "WHO"...

beguiles you
with enticing words, philosophy, vain deceit, and traditions of men...

Wasn't what your pope (any man) who stated 166 yrs ago, the establishment of a Catholics new Tradition concerning Mary's natural birth?

 

[Taken]

Hi Taken,

I follow Scripture: Hebrews 13:17

Heb 13:
[17] Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Well sure...however We First have the Option to choose WHO or WHAT will rule over us.
In the US:
* We have Laws that provide WHAT Rules over us.
We don't have rulers, we have Servants, that enforce the rules.
If we do not like or agree with rules, we have options to petition the Servants, or move to another: household, city, county, state, country that we prefer the rules we will agree to obey.
* Same with Religious establishments, churches, meeting halls, whatever name they. choose...
Once you Choose to be joined...of course you are agreeing get to obey "their" rules.

So when your church "changes" it rules, (after you are ajoined), you never disagree? Always obey?

 

[Taken]

Hi Taken,

The truth never changes.

Agree.

The Church

Are you speaking catholic-eeze?
"The Church"...only "Catholic"?

may become more enlightened to the Truth over time and write it into doctrine when there are challenges to that Truth (think Gnosticism).

Huh?
Are you saying, When your Church (leaders) are "challenged", they have to Write a NEW Doctrine?

Is that why a new doctrine/tradition was established (by Catholic men) concerning Mary's supposed, being Naturally Born without sin?...because your church (leaders had no answer) how JESUS could be born without sin, out of the womb of a woman naturally born in sin?

The Church

What church?

gives us doctrine (the truth) that is bound in heaven and on earth; just like scripture says.

Pretty confidant that is speaking of Christ's Church and Christ's Doctrine, being binding in Heaven and on Earth.

If we refuse to accept that doctrine from The Church we are to be treated as a pagan or tax collector; just like Scripture says.

Yet again..."The Church"...
What Church?

The Church

Yet again.

gave you 27 books to read. I assume you accept the Truth that the 27 books you quote from are inspired by God? Who gave you those 27 books? Answer: The Church. The same Church that gives you doctrine.

You seem to know more about me, than me.
What is "The Church" you keep mentioning?
And what 27 books are you claiming "some church" gave me?

Because, a Church I am associated with is A Church "Jesus, speaking of Himself, possessively called His Church "my church"
(Matt 16:18).

It was Jesus who Spoke His Doctrine.
It was Jewish Scribes who wrote what Jesus said.
It was Jesus' Jewish Chosen Disciples who wrote according to them, Jesus' Doctrine and Teachings.
(And before that it was Hebrews who wrote, Copied and sent to Tribes)

How Gentiles got their hands on Jewish writings...(is questionable)...but surely you are not implying ... Your Gentile Catholic Church is claiming Credit for what Jewish Scribes wrote and Jewish Recorders inscribed on Jewish Scrolls....
And Catholic men, put into print on Paper, and Gave to me?

 

[farouk]

Geographical location of where you were raised has alot to do with which church you attend.

@Heart2Soul This may be a very true observation.

I do think a local church testimony's consistent truth content is very important.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I don't know how this became a debate over the Catholic Doctrines but it's time to wrap it up and try edifying one another instead.
These anti-catholic threads are becoming an obsession with many here.
From what I have researched the Catholic religion has split many times from the original Roman Catholic Church....and it is my humble opinion that much of what many members post concerning this denomination are in error of what they find on the internet. I am not Catholic but I have family and friends who are and they have beautiful souls....they know I don't agree with some of their doctrines but what matters most is that they believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. And we discuss scriptures together often with great joy.

 

[Illuminator]

Mary - Seriously?
Are you unaware All Humans fall within the description of "ANY man"?

The point is to Beware of any man "WHO"...

beguiles you
with enticing words, philosophy, vain deceit, and traditions of men...

Wasn't what your pope (any man) who stated 166 yrs ago, the establishment of a Catholics new Tradition concerning Mary's natural birth?

It is impossible for the Church to invent any new tradition or doctrine that contradicts Scripture. It is an insulting canard based on ignorance and prejudice. Ineffabilis Deus, The Immaculate Conception is explained in detail. There are several scripture citations in the footnotes. The term "Immaculate Conception" has the same meaning as what all the early reformers taught, that by God's intervention, Mary was conceived without original sin by the merits of the Cross. He didn't HAVE TO do it that way. He CHOSE TO. God can do that because He is God. The term is new, the essential unchanging truths have always been there.

Luke 1:28 is key and was accepted by all Protestants until a few of them did flip flops. That's why the church had to clarify 166 years ago what Luke 1:28 meant in accordance with what had always believed from the days of the Apostles, and developed with deeper understand. No new teachings were introduced if you have enough academic muscle to plow through the encyclical and see for yourself. On line summaries are available if you are not up to such rigorous study. Mary born a sinner is a NEW man made tradition that was started by Protestant liberals that contradicted all of Christianity. The Fundamentalist Movement was a reaction a few short years later due to "higher criticism" that denied half the Bible.

Mary born a sinner IMO is a doctrine of demons because it diminishes the uniqueness of the Incarnation.

From a Protestant questioner on the Coming Home Network board, with my replies:
*
It kind of bugs me. Why did the Church have to announce those dogmas in the 1800s anyway? I’ve read that previous clarifications are in response to heresy.

Exactly. The Church defined them at the highest dogmatic levels, because we Catholics believe that God is working in His Church, and that we can think and reflect upon things for centuries (development of doctrine) before making them absolutely binding on the faithful. It is deemed an “opportune” time to define, due to historical circumstances.

Example: The Trinity needed clarification due to the Arian heresy. Well, what kind of heresy was so prominent in the 1800s, anyway, that the Catholic church felt so obliged that it had to pronounce Mary as Immaculate and also her Assumption?

Well, theological liberalism was running rampant for a couple of generations. The Immaculate Conception (as with all Marian dogmas) safeguarded the deity of Christ, which was under attack. Jesus was so special that even His mother had to be given a special grace of sinlessness to bear Him.

Catholic convert Louis Bouyer gives another rationale:

If there is any Catholic belief that shows how much the Church believes in the sovereignty of grace, in its most gratuitous form, it is this one. It is remarkable that the Orthodox controversialists, contrary to the Protestants, reproach Catholics for admitting, in this one case of Our Lady, something analogous to what strict Calvinists admit for all the elect – a grace that saves us absolutely independently of us, not only without any merit of our own, but without any possibility of our cooperation, . . . whereas the Protestant view seems, not merely against reason, but completely absurd. To say that Mary is holy, with a super-eminent holiness, in virtue of a divine intervention previous to the first instant of her existence, is to affirm in her case as absolutely as possible that salvation is a grace, and purely a grace, of God.

read more here:
Immaculate Conception & Assumption: Why Defined So Late?