If You Believe Your Denomination Is...

[Illuminator]

So once again, Scripture is the final arbiter of what is a true tradition.

A bass ackwards statement if I ever saw one. Here's why:

It is true that any proposed tradition which contradicts Apostolic Scripture is a false tradition and must be rejected, but this does not make Apostolic Tradition inferior to Scripture for that reason. It is also true that any proposed scripture which contradicts Apostolic Tradition is a false scripture and must be rejected.

This was, in fact, one of the ways in which the canon of the New Testament was selected. Any scriptures which contained doctrines which were contrary to the Traditions the apostles had handed down to the Church Fathers were rejected. Between the Gnostic gospels (like the Gospel of Thomas) or Marcion's edited version of Luke and Paul's epistles, there were a lot of heretical writings that different groups wanted to see in the New Testament. But the Fathers said, "No, this contradicts the faith that was handed down to us from the apostles. Thus it must be a forged writing."

So while tradition must be tested against Scripture to see if the tradition is apostolic, it is also true that scripture must be tested against Tradition to see if the scripture is apostolic. There is complementarity here, and one mode of teaching is not automatically inferior to the other.
INFO: The sources of theology

 

[Brakelite]

, it would demand that the Church violate her own teachings on religious freedom.

Considering those teachings are less than 100 years old and completely contradict her own behaviors for the previous 1500, it probably won't be that much of a sacrifice to ignore them.

 

[mjrhealth]

the religion of self is probably the hardest to leave...

All are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water


Peace!

For one to forget self one must leave religion, because religion is all about self, what you can do to earn your salvation, nothing.

 

[Illuminator]

Considering those teachings are less than 100 years old

Oh! You mean the ones you ignore? They are available on line for all to see. Some are long and complicated. Summaries are available that a grade 8 student could understand. You are locked into the same boring arguments that have been refuted a million times.

and completely contradict her own behaviors for the previous 1500

https://www.amazon.ca/Bearing-False-Witness-Debunking-Anti-Catholic/dp/1599474999
One cannot complain of doctrinal bias because the scholar who wrote this is not a Catholic. You can isolate "behaviors" all day, there are plenty to choose from. But historical context is never given. The world is constantly changing, throwing up new horrors worse than previous while you can't get your head out of the 16th century. Pontification is easy; research is hard.

it probably won't be that much of a sacrifice to ignore them.

No, it would be IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Brakelite]

Oh! You mean the ones you ignore? They are available on line for all to see. Some are long and complicated. Summaries are available that a grade 8 student could understand. You are locked into the same boring arguments that have been refuted a million times.

https://www.amazon.ca/Bearing-False-Witness-Debunking-Anti-Catholic/dp/1599474999
One cannot complain of doctrinal bias because the scholar who wrote this is not a Catholic. You can isolate "behaviors" all day, there are plenty to choose from. But historical context is never given. The world is constantly changing, throwing up new horrors worse than previous while you can't get your head out of the 16th century. Pontification is easy; research is hard.

No, it would be IMPOSSIBLE.

I only have to go back 130 odd years to Pope Pius and his syllabus of errors to confirm the mind and heart of Catholicism toward true religious liberty. Freedom to become Catholic, and a curse upon anyone who didn't, and an implied promise that laws would be enacted to prevent such a thing if Catholics had power. Catholic articles in Catholic publications repeated that for decades and least until Vatican II.

 

[Marymog]

Absolutely... Which you are fully aware of.

No, I am not fully aware of what denomination you belong to. That is why I asked.

 

[Marymog]

Catholicism, by your own admission, is a form of religion/faith based on what you call sacred tradition. Scripture is interpreted by the magisterium with tradition being the arbiter as to what scripture means, thus if one was to look upon this dispassionately, one could say the magisterium, and not scripture or tradition, is the final authority. Because it is they who make the final decision. You as much admit this yourself many times when you claim the CC is the final authority because, you say, the church is the foundation of truth.

Yes, tradition plays a big role in Catholicism. As it should in any Christian Church since scripture says “stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” Does your church follow Scripture?

We have the Magisterium, which is made up of church leaders. The magisterium see’s to it that no one takes us captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ (Colossians 2:8). Scripture says that it “commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.” The magisterium knows that “the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.” They prevent that from happening. You have your elders or church leaders. It’s the same thing just a different word. Are they doing the same as The Church magisterium? Who makes the authority to make the final decision in your denomination?

Scripture AND tradition are the final authority because we hold fast to tradition just like scripture says we should.

If The Church isn’t the foundation of truth, which denomination is?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Protestants however are different, again by your own admission, in that Protestants claim scripture alone as the final authority for faith and practice. To the Protestant, the church is still the pillar and foundation of truth, but to the Protestant, where two or three are gathered, there is the church.

I agree, they are different. All Protestant denominations claim that scripture alone is the final authority. They then come up with 2-3 different ways to interpret Scripture and all of them claim they got it right and everyone else got it wrong. Soooooo how is Scripture the final authority when it is MAN who interprets Scripture?

If 2-3 Catholics are gathered is that the church? Or is it when 2-3 Baptist’s are gathered, is that the church? Your interpretation of that passage is flawed.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

It is would appear that Origen and Clement of Alexandria adopted some Gnostic ideas and began to teach about Purgatory.

Maybe the Gnostic’s got some teachings right? Who decides if they did or didn’t? YOU?

 

[Marymog]

Oh! You mean the ones you ignore? They are available on line for all to see. Some are long and complicated. Summaries are available that a grade 8 student could understand. You are locked into the same boring arguments that have been refuted a million times.

https://www.amazon.ca/Bearing-False-Witness-Debunking-Anti-Catholic/dp/1599474999
One cannot complain of doctrinal bias because the scholar who wrote this is not a Catholic. You can isolate "behaviors" all day, there are plenty to choose from. But historical context is never given. The world is constantly changing, throwing up new horrors worse than previous while you can't get your head out of the 16th century. Pontification is easy; research is hard.

No, it would be IMPOSSIBLE.

I have that book! Loved it!!

 

[Brakelite]

No, I am not fully aware of what denomination you belong to. That is why I asked.

Oh sorry, you didn't receive the memo lol. I'm brakelite, but now under a new name...long story. So yep, you know me.

 

[Enoch111]

Maybe the Gnostic’s got some teachings right? Who decides if they did or didn’t? YOU?

If you really think the Gnostics got some teachings right, then you are in hot water. All their teachings were heresies. And Purgatory is another heresy derived from pure speculation.

 

[Illuminator]

I only have to go back 130 odd years to Pope Pius and his syllabus of errors to confirm the mind and heart of Catholicism toward true religious liberty. Freedom to become Catholic, and a curse upon anyone who didn't, and an implied promise that laws would be enacted to prevent such a thing if Catholics had power. Catholic articles in Catholic publications repeated that for decades and least until Vatican II.

and a curse upon anyone who didn't? Please document that hateful anti-Catholic lie with citations in context from Pope Pius. If you can't, or won't, please refrain from your arrogant bigotry. We claim the right to interpret our own teachings, you claim the right to misrepresent them. Don't spit on the olive branch Vatican II has handed you.

 

[Illuminator]

If you really think the Gnostics got some teachings right, then you are in hot water. All their teachings were heresies. And Purgatory is another heresy derived from pure speculation.

That's because you have severed Christianity from it's Jewish roots, and refuse to open your eyes.

 

[Marymog]

Oh sorry, you didn't receive the memo lol. I'm brakelite, but now under a new name...long story. So yep, you know me.

Oh...brakelite!! Lol....yup....I know you. I didn’t get the memo. How long ago did you change your name?

 

[Marymog]

If you really think the Gnostics got some teachings right, then you are in hot water. All their teachings were heresies. And Purgatory is another heresy derived from pure speculation.

Hi Enoch,

Lol....you didn’t even answer the question dodgeball. Soooo lets try again: Who decides if the Gnostics (OR any denomination) got some of their teachings right? YOU?

I am willing to bet that you think the Catholic Church got some teachings right. Does that put YOU in hot water?

 

[Brakelite]

and a curse upon anyone who didn't?

The word anathema ring a bell?

We claim the right to interpret our own teachings,

Fine. Interpret this....

• Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true... For roughly 1500 years this precept was not only conceptually acceptable but unapologetically practiced, with a vengeance. Starting possibly with the persecutions against the Aryans after the councils presided over by Constantine and continued down through the ages against every possible variant to Catholicism that her tentacles could reach to.

• In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship... This, in the latter part of the 19th century an affirmation of 1500 years of dogmatic intolerance...

• It has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship... This is interesting... In Catholic countries. Now it is supposed that Vatican II (your olive branch I suppose) by some, ( because there is still much debate in Catholic circles how to reconcile quantum quora with Vatican II) repudiates1500 years of papal teaching and practice. Except in Catholic countries. Like Spain for example. If Spain once again became a Catholic theocracy then it is assumed that intolerance would again apply correct?

So tell me please.

And please be honest. If the United States gained a Catholic majority in the Senate or the Congress, like it presently has in the USSC, or the present administration although ostensibly Protestant decided for some mad reason to give Rome some semblance of authority over the religious life of the nation, how long before the constitution is torn up and the intolerance advocated in the above exercised in the USA?

Don't spit on the olive branch Vatican II has handed you

I accept nothing from anybody unless I trust them. What evidence, apart from words, can you offer me to prove the Catholic Church is no longer the persecuting intolerant murderous entity it was for 1500 years? Oh, and don't sound away into Protestant intolerance. I don't trust Protestant Governments any more than Catholic ones, particularly ones that have Catholic judges deciding on constitutional matters. Now, right now, at this point in time, it isn't so much of an issue I grant you. But tomorrow... Tomorrow, under crisis of repeated disasters as foretold in scripture and churches who have the ear of government believe they only way to protect themselves from God's judgements is to have government legislate moral church born dogma... Catholic dogma...

 

[Brakelite]

Oh...brakelite!! Lol....yup....I know you. I didn’t get the memo. How long ago did you change your name?

Precisely 387 messages ago.

 

[Marymog]

Precisely 387 messages ago.

I guess I should have asked WHY?

 

[Brakelite]

I guess I should have asked WHY?

Lol. That's the long story.