If you don't Believe and like Prosperity you won't like Heaven.

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bbyrd009

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We become members of God's family when we choose to believe,confess and repent of our sins and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior!!
and Christ, meh, He can just make do with our def of Him eh

"there was a line,
there was a formula;
sharp as a knife
facts cut a hole in us"

you dont have to die worshipping yourself if you dont want to Gis
a cardinal tho, lol
could be terminal
 
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Heyzeus

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the gates are always open huh :)

ntmy btw, im mark

Open to everyone who does "The Will of the Father" - and "Only" those that do the Will of the Father. Matt 7

This of course begs the question what is the will of the Father - according to Jesus - in his most famous Sermon on the Mount Matt 5-7?

The Sermon is full of things that are the will of the Father - much of which can be summed up with the Golden Rule - do unto others Matt 7:12
"The rule that Sums up the Law and the Prophets"

Perhaps we should pay more attention to that one. Unfortunately for the Sola Fide adherents - not a word mentioned about Faith being a requirement. All the requirements are related to deeds in one way shape or form.

The Sermon is quite legalistic in many ways - introduces the concept of Severity of Sin - not all sin is equal. The bar is that one's righteousness should exceed that of the Pharisees and the Lawgivers.

Fortunately for us regular folk - that bar is quite low as Jesus did not think much of those folks - and I suppose that folks today should view religious leaders with equal suspicion - at least some... the "Wolves in Sheeps Clothing" referred to in Matt 7.
 

GISMYS_7

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and Christ, meh, He can just make do with our def of Him eh

"there was a line,
there was a formula;
sharp as a knife
facts cut a hole in us"

you dont have to die worshipping yourself if you dont want to Gis
a cardinal tho, lol
could be terminal

How to be saved (born again) and join the family of God!

Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13 GOD SAYS=

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto Salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be Saved.....
 

FollowHim

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The title of this thread is interesting. It suggests heaven is about possessions and doing well.
One observation I have made about people who drive flash cars is they drive them not because they know much about cars but because of the looks they think they will get from others.

Now if you live in a world where everyone else has exactly what you have got are you happy or sad?
Does superiority drive your motivation and direction in life?

I get that feeling from the statement about prosperity and heaven. God shares everything with those He loves.
Ownership is not an issue because missuse is not a risk. I hate to use the term fool, but a fool would talk about prosperity and God. God owns everything and can do what He wills and desires. So for Him prosperity is not a phrase that registers at all. Spiritual poverty, emptiness and darkness is what concerns Him and how empty and dark are souls who see possessions and call them prosperity and wealth.

Imagine a guy with 1 billion dollars. There is not time or physical ability to experience such a massive amount of wealth and what it could be used to achieve. It is like saying can I listen to all the videos on YouTube? What the truth becomes is what does one personally really value. And once you begin to see what we value and how we then respond, wealth is just a means to amplify this or detract from it.

So to express value to another, to reach our and touch someone in a deep way and help change their path, now that has true significant value. To bring joy and fulfilment, to bring security and a base from which to operate, that is a support that has eternal consequences. Jesus did not need a home, or a place to reside, because He spent His time doing what needed to be done.

What is also fascinating is what is called prosperity in each civilisation changes, depending on the culture and value systems at work. And what is our common social feeling, "I will show them", "They will regret writing me off", "I will be something that will surprise them".

But the problem is, we are who we are and that is enough. It is valuing people in their situation and opportunities that is life and its power, not this illusion of who can get the greatest acclaim or otherwise. Only a rich wealthy society with overly self indulgent people who want to be reassured their gluttony and greed is not sin would be pampered with a prosperity gospel. What they do not realise they have already found their heaven, and they really do not want God to take it away, but for them, heaven will be a place of emptiness and poverty, where they will never find a place.

God bless you
 
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Heyzeus

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How to be saved (born again) and join the family of God!

Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13 GOD SAYS=

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto Salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be Saved...................

Paul Contradicts Jesus - unless of course your understanding of Paul is flawed and the term "Saved" meant something different to Paul than what you are inferring. Either way - this conflicts with the teachings of Jesus - as in "The Teachings of Jesus" - as opposed to the teachings of some fellow that never met the man ... and was not even a follower until years after the death of our lord.

(born again) In order to be "born again" you first have to die .. this is the promise of the resurrection.

Just to be clear on the definition of "Saved" - that we are on the same page - this means passage through the pearly gates ...correct ?
 

GISMYS_7

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Paul Contradicts Jesus - unless of course your understanding of Paul is flawed and the term "Saved" meant something different to Paul than what you are inferring. Either way - this conflicts with the teachings of Jesus - as in "The Teachings of Jesus" - as opposed to the teachings of some fellow that never met the man ... and was not even a follower until years after the death of our lord.

(born again) In order to be "born again" you first have to die .. this is the promise of the resurrection.

Just to be clear on the definition of "Saved" - that we are on the same page - this means passage through the pearly gates ...correct ?

Pray for some wisdom and understanding!!! There are NO contradictions in the eternal living Word of God!
 

Heyzeus

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Pray for some wisdom and understanding!!! There are NO contradictions in the eternal living Word of God!

I agree with you. The Eternal Living Word of God should contain no contradictions.

Just because the Bible contains contradictions does not mean that parts of the Bible are not the eternal living word of God though. This may perhaps be the source of your error - and the answer to your prayers.
 

FollowHim

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Paul Contradicts Jesus - unless of course your understanding of Paul is flawed and the term "Saved" meant something different to Paul than what you are inferring. Either way - this conflicts with the teachings of Jesus - as in "The Teachings of Jesus" - as opposed to the teachings of some fellow that never met the man ... and was not even a follower until years after the death of our lord.

(born again) In order to be "born again" you first have to die .. this is the promise of the resurrection.

Just to be clear on the definition of "Saved" - that we are on the same page - this means passage through the pearly gates ...correct ?
A belief that contradicts the sources or authority, then the understanding is wrong not the sources. In a sense truth is always a summary as is every word we use, but the listener can always project the wrong summary. So where is the error, in the summary or the projection.

Life is always bounded by our summaries. In Jesus it is His truth that transforms us, our loyalties, our grace our love. We know we have failed when those with God's blessing appear to contradict each other. God bless you
 

GISMYS_7

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Simple=easy to understand=How to be saved (born again) and join the family of God!

Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13 GOD SAYS=

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in your heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto Salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be Saved......
 

Heyzeus

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A belief that contradicts the sources or authority, then the understanding is wrong not the sources. In a sense truth is always a summary as is every word we use, but the listener can always project the wrong summary. So where is the error, in the summary or the projection.

Life is always bounded by our summaries. In Jesus it is His truth that transforms us, our loyalties, our grace our love. We know we have failed when those with God's blessing appear to contradict each other. God bless you



When one's belief conflicts with an "Authority" one's belief is not necessarily wrong.. so you have made a logical error.

How does this relate to the differing perspectives held by Jesus and Paul w/r to salvation ?

One thing I might say in Paul's Defense though is that I am not convinced that even Paul would accept the doctrine "Sola Fide"
 

FollowHim

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When one's belief conflicts with an "Authority" one's belief is not necessarily wrong.. so you have made a logical error.

How does this relate to the differing perspectives held by Jesus and Paul w/r to salvation ?

One thing I might say in Paul's Defense though is that I am not convinced that even Paul would accept the doctrine "Sola Fide"

You are right to say the "authority" is not the definer of truth. But in spiritual things there are perspectives that are difficult to grasp.
The example is in the phrase "you know everything".

We all know it is impossible to be able to define and know everything. So that meaning, unless spoken in a sarcastic manner means you know things that others do not, and are the definer of meaningful knowledge. A lot of our language and idioms are defined in these cultural ways and discussions around what is possible and what is not, what a community knows and is focused on, and what is irrelevant and what is to the point.

Scripture by the nature of how God expresses himself is full of these focused points of emphasis and meaning. So the Father is "I am", the ever present and existent one, the ultimate reference point for everything. The Lord lays down levels of respect and authority, starting with Himself. His emphasis is on approach, not knowledge or content, but approach. Emotionally so many of our failures come from getting these issues wrong.

A for instance is sexual attraction. Two people connect, and are strongly attracted to each other. As they discover who each is, they realise this is a physical reaction and as people they are the opposite of who they would be with or want to be with, and have zero future together. Now how do we avoid such split perspectives? Or family loyalty over morality and truth. Jesus said we should hate such loyalty when in conflict with things of God. So on every scale love of God and His ways stands preeminent above everything else.

These are emotional perspectives and how we live them out, rather than "facts" or "truth". Now to see God, to know His will, Jesus put as the foundational stone purity, being clean, standing apart, seeing things as a whole, being objective and knowing the beginning and its consequences.
Once you begin to see this is the foundation, a lot of what one sees as contradictions become nuances on the interaction between different approaches and situations. One begins to see that murder is defined on the individual scale of rights of an individual over another, but as a community fighting for existence to the death is acceptable. So justice and love are two different perspectives of the same reality, but often lead to different behaviours and reactions, depending upon the role one is playing.

It is easy in the moment to see a rebellious teenager asserting their independence and someone who needs to be loved and given space. Finding a way through, being able to know how things will develop and limiting damage and words, to a time when the reality of bonds and investment can be better reflected. I have lived these very realities, and after seeing the person behind the words, changed how I responded, and the push back I gave.

So I have seen Jesus and Paul as different people preaching a contradictory emphasis and now see a coherent whole, with different ministries at different times in the life of the Kingdom. God bless you
 

Heyzeus

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You are right to say the "authority" is not the definer of truth. But in spiritual things there are perspectives that are difficult to grasp.
The example is in the phrase "you know everything".

We all know it is impossible to be able to define and know everything. So that meaning, unless spoken in a sarcastic manner means you know things that others do not, and are the definer of meaningful knowledge. A lot of our language and idioms are defined in these cultural ways and discussions around what is possible and what is not, what a community knows and is focused on, and what is irrelevant and what is to the point.

Scripture by the nature of how God expresses himself is full of these focused points of emphasis and meaning. So the Father is "I am", the ever present and existent one, the ultimate reference point for everything. The Lord lays down levels of respect and authority, starting with Himself. His emphasis is on approach, not knowledge or content, but approach. Emotionally so many of our failures come from getting these issues wrong.

A for instance is sexual attraction. Two people connect, and are strongly attracted to each other. As they discover who each is, they realise this is a physical reaction and as people they are the opposite of who they would be with or want to be with, and have zero future together. Now how do we avoid such split perspectives? Or family loyalty over morality and truth. Jesus said we should hate such loyalty when in conflict with things of God. So on every scale love of God and His ways stands preeminent above everything else.

These are emotional perspectives and how we live them out, rather than "facts" or "truth". Now to see God, to know His will, Jesus put as the foundational stone purity, being clean, standing apart, seeing things as a whole, being objective and knowing the beginning and its consequences.
Once you begin to see this is the foundation, a lot of what one sees as contradictions become nuances on the interaction between different approaches and situations. One begins to see that murder is defined on the individual scale of rights of an individual over another, but as a community fighting for existence to the death is acceptable. So justice and love are two different perspectives of the same reality, but often lead to different behaviours and reactions, depending upon the role one is playing.

It is easy in the moment to see a rebellious teenager asserting their independence and someone who needs to be loved and given space. Finding a way through, being able to know how things will develop and limiting damage and words, to a time when the reality of bonds and investment can be better reflected. I have lived these very realities, and after seeing the person behind the words, changed how I responded, and the push back I gave.

So I have seen Jesus and Paul as different people preaching a contradictory emphasis and now see a coherent whole, with different ministries at different times in the life of the Kingdom. God bless you

There are many nuances in places but - there are many "Real" contradictions in many places in the Bible. The idea that the Bible is 100% Gods word is extremely problematic and thus this stance has been abandoned by the Church at Large - and for good reason

Then we have the problem of interpretation such that even if one could legitimately claim 100% God's word - we still don't know what Gods word is due to differing interpretations. Then there are Black vs White Paradigm issues .. when you stand on such a tall platform "100God's word" - you better have a solid foundation ... but any chink to the armor of this one topples the whole structure.

I approach it from a different perspective. It is much better IMO - to look at "parts" of the Bible as "Inspired" - and after all .. who can claim otherwise ? .. This allows us to then take the best parts and incorporate them into our life. Take the parts that speak to you is what I say .. we can all find some good in there .. just don't go around trying to force your personal perspective on the legalistic parts of the Bible on others. This is what Jesus taught - Secularism.

Some want to say "This is What Paul Taught" - I say - OK - if that speaks to you then go ahead.. I will however go with what Jesus Taught - to the best of my reckoning.
 

GISMYS_7

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Beware!!! Planting seeds of doubt about the words of God was satan's very first deception==="""Did God really say??""
(Genesis 3:1). We learn a lot from observing how the serpent, Adam, and Eve, each handled the word of God.
 
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Grams

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8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is faith !!!!!!!! But also belief !!!!!!!!!!!

Believe in GOD and JESUS of course......................!
 

Heyzeus

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Beware!!! Planting seeds of doubt about the words of God was satan's very first deception==="""Did God really say??""
(Genesis 3:1). We learn a lot from observing how the serpent, Adam, and Eve, each handled the word of God.

You claim to know what the word of God yet but, can not answer a simple question.

A) Children should be killed for the sins of their parents
B) Children should not be killed/punished for the sins of their parent
 

GISMYS_7

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You claim to know what the word of God yet but, can not answer a simple question.

A) Children should be killed for the sins of their parents
B) Children should not be killed/punished for the sins of their parent

Post chapter and verse!!!
 

GISMYS_7

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The rich person will not be in Heaven! The Bible is very clear about this. Unless, he give all his belongings away and follow Jesus. Try to spin things to your favor; try to ignore clear statements by Jesus; try to justify your attachment to this world. Do not deceive yourself - it is unlikely that many rich people will be in Heaven.

What a silly idea!!! God made King Solomon the richest man ever on earth.
 

FollowHim

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There are many nuances in places but - there are many "Real" contradictions in many places in the Bible. The idea that the Bible is 100% Gods word is extremely problematic and thus this stance has been abandoned by the Church at Large - and for good reason

Then we have the problem of interpretation such that even if one could legitimately claim 100% God's word - we still don't know what Gods word is due to differing interpretations. Then there are Black vs White Paradigm issues .. when you stand on such a tall platform "100God's word" - you better have a solid foundation ... but any chink to the armor of this one topples the whole structure.

I approach it from a different perspective. It is much better IMO - to look at "parts" of the Bible as "Inspired" - and after all .. who can claim otherwise ? .. This allows us to then take the best parts and incorporate them into our life. Take the parts that speak to you is what I say .. we can all find some good in there .. just don't go around trying to force your personal perspective on the legalistic parts of the Bible on others. This is what Jesus taught - Secularism.

Some want to say "This is What Paul Taught" - I say - OK - if that speaks to you then go ahead.. I will however go with what Jesus Taught - to the best of my reckoning.
You appear to excuse filtering out what you like from what you do not like. There are other perspectives than rewriting scripture.

What you call contradiction I would call emphasis. Take cursing the fig tree. Did it wither straight away or over 24 hours? Depends on who you listen to and it can be both. One saw a change straight away the other the next day. This is very common among witnesses, but the message is it withered.

Now where is the invention and where the reality. Scripture is very much perspectives, and varies from writer to writer. What is miss leading is the claim things cannot be as described or is false. If you want to claim this back it up else it is just your view, no more.

Biblical critics fail to see meaning and expression are two different things. God's word is alive in His people today and finds its unique expression in each. The implications are infinite so declaring only one view conflicts with another is just delusion from a closed heart. God bless you
 
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GISMYS_7

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I find that those that try to deny parts of the Bible Truth do so because the scripture is exposing their pet sins!!
 

Heyzeus

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You appear to excuse filtering out what you like from what you do not like. There are other perspectives than rewriting scripture.

What you call contradiction I would call emphasis. Take cursing the fig tree. Did it wither straight away or over 24 hours? Depends on who you listen to and it can be both. One saw a change straight away the other the next day. This is very common among witnesses, but the message is it withered.

Now where is the invention and where the reality. Scripture is very much perspectives, and varies from writer to writer. What is miss leading is the claim things cannot be as described or is false. If you want to claim this back it up else it is just your view, no more.

Biblical critics fail to see meaning and expression are two different things. God's word is alive in His people today and finds its unique expression in each. The implications are infinite so declaring only one view conflicts with another is just delusion from a closed heart. God bless you

1) Don't project your "Excuse Filtering" onto me :) and what a nonsense term... Excuse for what. You are the one trying to excuse blatant contradictions - interpolation, "sin of omission" and outright pious Fraud ... via conflating my suggestion of going with what one likes on a personal level - as some kind of refutation to the above Fact.

2) What else is what to do other than select what one likes. What are you suggesting here .. that one adopt a literal "The whole Bible is Gods Word" approach ?

3) Yes - there are places in scripture that are not clear cut - subject to interpretation.. many many many .. But many many are not.

How many examples would you like ?