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Heyzeus

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"outright pious Fraud" - what is this? What I find interesting is how people find sin and moral guilt is so difficult to face, nihilists deny it has any value except it is not a belief system, it is inbuilt into our dna and things we care about.

I read a guy who felt he had been brain washed into believing moral behaviour was good, and immoral behaviour was not, yet he no longer accepted this so he could not understand why his emotions and heart still refused to not respond. What he was unaware of we are totally integrated social beings and morality is about our biological sense of fairness. You can do experiments with children and they know what is fair and what is not and care deeply about it. Religion and morality reflect what we already are, which is why it occurs in all cultures and places people exist, rather than religion and morality is externally imposed. But this kind of world is hard to except if one wants a world with no meaning because then guilt should evaporate and disappear. The thing with behavioural biology is it is governed by what works not what is individually desired.

So I would say as Proverbs described evil people as fools with no understanding or strength are 100% correct and unfortunately for people who hate this reality, their hatred defines its reality against which they can do nothing. If it was not unmoveable the hatred would not be so strong.
The biggest lie is religion has created morality, so reject God and you will then be immoral. The opposite is true, accept our own personal morality and guilt and God will help us become fulfilled and find real meaning in His love and reality. God bless you

While an interesting story - but it had nothing to do with Pious Fraud .. one example is given in detail in my previous post- but there are many other examples one can find.. just in the Pious Fraud Category. How about the removal of entire books ... The "Word of God" one day .. not the word of God the next. ..

Then we have books which are still Canon - which were "Written by Paul - Peter and so on" but were not written by the Author that the work purports itself to be written by - known as Pseudepigrapha aka - Pious Fraud"

but never mind this .. Why would one even want to argue for a "The Bible is Gods Every Word" position.
 

FollowHim

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Well that was a nice cosmic perspective .. one I share but thanks for sharing.

Not sure what this has to do with the various issues with claiming the entire Bible is "God Breathed' - the first scientific question being.

Which one ? Which Bible ?

The answer to the question matters not - as regardless of what is chosen - I can put up another Bible that says something different - at which point we are faced with the dilema "which one is God's word" ?

Now that is comparing the exact same passage - never mind comparison of different passages.

For example - go to page 7 of this article and you will find Deut 32:43 - from 3 different Bibles. 2 are further back than 100 BC and the Masoretic Text which was done 700-900 AD http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/DT32BibSac.pdf

In the 2 older versions the Israelite beliefs in the Divine Pantheon are maintained - not in the MT. This is one of the more common edits .. cool that we have some older texts which maintain the original reading.

Then if you look at what the MT does maintain -

"Oh Nations, rejoice his people - (on the older versions "his people" turns out to be other Gods alongside angels)
for He'll avenge the blood of his servants
Wreck vengeance on his foes
and Cleanse his peoples land"

Then compare this to a modern translation --

Rejoice, you nations, with his people,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.

There will be no "Cleansing of the Land" in the modern world .. nor is it the peoples land .. it is not God's land..

What has been cleansed is any semblance of the original meaning out of this passage.

Interesting question. I will have to research this issue and what is being discussed.
Your description seems to be about a few words and the difference implications that can be drawn from its implications.
The problem with such discussions, is it is not taking the full context of the description, and implying a small variation denies the meaning of the whole. Now if a scribe at some time thought to add a emphasis here or there, or a scribal error occurred, different things crept into different translations and versions of scripture. What believers will focus on is the whole structure and its robustness, not various small differences.

Now I agree if you suggest each word must be consistent and exact, in every book, then such variations cause big issues.
If one steps back and sees intention and emphasis is the message, variations are personal expressions and show the humanity of the process.
It is why I am not a fundamentalist or literalist, but rather I hold to the living word living in my heart.

But I will research this subject further, and it does interest me what is the fascination with such points. God bless you
 

FollowHim

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While an interesting story - but it had nothing to do with Pious Fraud .. one example is given in detail in my previous post- but there are many other examples one can find.. just in the Pious Fraud Category. How about the removal of entire books ... The "Word of God" one day .. not the word of God the next. ..

Then we have books which are still Canon - which were "Written by Paul - Peter and so on" but were not written by the Author that the work purports itself to be written by - known as Pseudepigrapha aka - Pious Fraud"

but never mind this .. Why would one even want to argue for a "The Bible is Gods Every Word" position.

I am not arguing for the bible is Gods every word, because clearly you need to define what one means by the question.
Scripture is not a lecture by God to man, but rather recounting events, teaching, songs, philosophy, discussions, poetry, fiction, pictoral representation of emotional realities, along with Gods exact words.

So what I am arguing is scripture is very unique and unusual. If one wants to be cynical and critical there is lots of room for this.
On the subject of who is the author of each book etc. personally I do not care who the author is, just that this represents the thinking and experience of the people involved. There is a philosophy that wants a clarity over subjects where clarity is not the point, rather discovering tension and compromise. One problem with absolutism is the idea that facts define spiritual reality, where as Jesus described our hearts define spiritual reality.

So Jesus and live and die, be resurrected but these facts mean nothing if the heart is dark and lost. A formula solution to life when life is the heart, will always fail. God bless you
 

Heyzeus

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Interesting question. I will have to research this issue and what is being discussed.
Your description seems to be about a few words and the difference implications that can be drawn from its implications.
The problem with such discussions, is it is not taking the full context of the description, and implying a small variation denies the meaning of the whole. Now if a scribe at some time thought to add a emphasis here or there, or a scribal error occurred, different things crept into different translations and versions of scripture. What believers will focus on is the whole structure and its robustness, not various small differences.

Now I agree if you suggest each word must be consistent and exact, in every book, then such variations cause big issues.
If one steps back and sees intention and emphasis is the message, variations are personal expressions and show the humanity of the process.
It is why I am not a fundamentalist or literalist, but rather I hold to the living word living in my heart.

But I will research this subject further, and it does interest me what is the fascination with such points. God bless you

I didn't suggest any of what you are inferring .. These are not "Scribal Errors" - in this case we have 1) "Sin of Omission" - editing out other Deities - this being one of a number of examples - and we now know the history of the Israelite's and what their religious beliefs actually were .. which coincides with the text - text that was edited out of the MT 700-900 AD - intentionally .. to make the text better conform to the transformation to Strict Monotheism.

2) - Generally a modern Bible will at least be the same as the MT - what happened with the bastardization of the last and what little remaining meaning there was .. what can you say.. not good.

You can still hold the living word to your heart .... and the word is still alive if you choose to make it so. The problem as I see it for most folks is that Christianity has tended to focus far to much on Paul and far to little on Jesus.

The Sermon on the Mount and perhaps a few related passages from Matt and Mark - are as close as you are going to get to the Real Jesus
The Man's core teachings are in that Sermon - and these are the words on which to build one's faith. Paul is to me like the advocate - in the old sense ... not the new version.

Speaking of the new version .. and the advocate . how did Satan get transformed into someone who only does God's will - not stepping outside those boundaries .. a Son of God - on good terms with his Father - into this Nasty Fellow of Revelations.. Strange that one is.
 

GISMYS_7

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Isaiah 14:12–15

Satan==you are fallen from heaven,

O Day Star, son of Dawn!

How you are cut down to the ground,

you who laid the nations low!

Satan said==‘I will ascend to heaven;

above the stars of God

I will set my throne on high;

I will sit on the mount of assembly

in the far reaches of the north;3

But you are brought down to Sheol,

to the far reaches of the pit.
 

Heyzeus

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I am not arguing for the bible is Gods every word, because clearly you need to define what one means by the question.
Scripture is not a lecture by God to man, but rather recounting events, teaching, songs, philosophy, discussions, poetry, fiction, pictoral representation of emotional realities, along with Gods exact words.

So what I am arguing is scripture is very unique and unusual. If one wants to be cynical and critical there is lots of room for this.
On the subject of who is the author of each book etc. personally I do not care who the author is, just that this represents the thinking and experience of the people involved. There is a philosophy that wants a clarity over subjects where clarity is not the point, rather discovering tension and compromise. One problem with absolutism is the idea that facts define spiritual reality, where as Jesus described our hearts define spiritual reality.

So Jesus and live and die, be resurrected but these facts mean nothing if the heart is dark and lost. A formula solution to life when life is the heart, will always fail. God bless you

That is much of what I am arguing as well ... think we were on different pages - me thinking you were coming from a literalist perspective.
but nor am I coming from a place of being cynical - other than for concepts that do not make sense ... not talking some of the bigger more vauge concepts like "The mighty Trinity" - but - just the basics like Paul's comments on how women should be silent and how that was used to "Silence Women" - for 1500 years.

Or Paul's even more ridiculous comments about how Adolf Hitler is one of God's minions - doing God's work. This was Paul - trying to make Christianity more appealing to the Romans - a smart thing to do.

What this was not - was "Inspired"

Romans 13 : "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. ...... 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. ....They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."

Well OK then .. how about we relegate that little Pauline rant into the "Not inspired" bin... maybe please ? por favor !?
 

Heyzeus

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Isaiah 14:12–15

Satan==you are fallen from heaven,

Psssttt .. Matey ... over here .. every post you keep raging on about Satan Satan .. utterances of no relevance to the post you are responding to - do we need to perform an exorcism ?
 

FollowHim

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I didn't suggest any of what you are inferring .. These are not "Scribal Errors" - in this case we have 1) "Sin of Omission" - editing out other Deities - this being one of a number of examples - and we now know the history of the Israelite's and what their religious beliefs actually were .. which coincides with the text - text that was edited out of the MT 700-900 AD - intentionally .. to make the text better conform to the transformation to Strict Monotheism.

2) - Generally a modern Bible will at least be the same as the MT - what happened with the bastardization of the last and what little remaining meaning there was .. what can you say.. not good.

You can still hold the living word to your heart .... and the word is still alive if you choose to make it so. The problem as I see it for most folks is that Christianity has tended to focus far to much on Paul and far to little on Jesus.

The Sermon on the Mount and perhaps a few related passages from Matt and Mark - are as close as you are going to get to the Real Jesus
The Man's core teachings are in that Sermon - and these are the words on which to build one's faith. Paul is to me like the advocate - in the old sense ... not the new version.

Speaking of the new version .. and the advocate . how did Satan get transformed into someone who only does God's will - not stepping outside those boundaries .. a Son of God - on good terms with his Father - into this Nasty Fellow of Revelations.. Strange that one is.

Let me summarise my approach to criticism and its approach. The first assumption is the bible is a fake, a construction made to appear consistent but actually a product of a series of people or committees, with the aim to create a cultural identity to a tribal group living in Palestine.

So 99% of the text is set aside and hunting for small linguistical hints are looked for, like how God is named, the type of sentence structure, the coherence between books etc. Unbelief becomes the driving thread of it all, except one is actually dealing with the extraordinary, going backwards from the time of Moses. It is clear that for many centuries all that remained after the exile was the Torah and commentaries of one sort or another about the history of Israel. What has happened over the last 100 years is discovery after discovery of the historical accuracy of scripture and the people it mentions. Rather than a construction, it is records of witnesses passing through these points, with Kings and powers and really odd stand offs. One such odd situation is Hezekiah, Sennacherib King of Assyria, and Isaiah.

The King of Assyria conquers Israel and is determined to crush Hezekiah. A plague saves the day, Sennacherib withdraws. Like a lot of events in Israel, it was a nation about to be destroyed, but it survives. Other historical sources show this story, though it misses out why Jerusalem was not destroyed, which is not surprising, as the hand of God is not exactly something you advertise.

Another area for me is the history of the Hittites, who were discovered as a group who prospered for 500 years in turkey and come into biblical history. So many of the biblical critics claimed these things are just inventions, fairy stories, and their foundation for saying this is how names of God were used in texts. If anything modern times has given us, is scripture is historically foundational, and a wonder from ancient times, no matter the implications, it is not like any other document we have.

Now I am not a 7 day creationist, but knowing that things are not what they seem, it does not matter. The thrust of the stories is God is sovereign and I need to seek out my greatest friend and Father.

There are some profound questions about the garden of Eden and creation. God himself is the only witness, and He alone dictated these perspectives. Within these perspectives are two versions of the story. A talking snake, a symbolic personification of evil, of temptation, of doubt, of ambition and elevation, over boundaries, relationship and trust. Eden in Iraq, a very desert dry empty place. Things have changed greatly since this story took place. But also what is unusual is placing such a story in a geographic historical setting.

For me this underlines another thread of philosophical thought, what is life for, our independent, emotional and relationship focused existence. We live on a globe with a skin 30 miles high, and literally everywhere else we die. Our whole lives are flowering in a field, enjoying the best life offers and then we fade and go away. And we desire certainty, absolutes, security, meaning, idealism, the stopping of suffering, and yet in this struggle we as a civilisation have created unbelievable suffering and death. So we are a contradiction, and our certainty is just self pomposity, rather than admitting everything is a compromise and our hearts need to walk the path we truly desire, the walk of love. God bless you
 

GISMYS_7

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Psssttt .. Matey ... over here .. every post you keep raging on about Satan Satan .. utterances of no relevance to the post you are responding to - do we need to perform an exorcism ?

Pray for some wisdom and understanding!!!! Hurry!!!
 

Heyzeus

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Let me summarise my approach to criticism and its approach. The first assumption is the bible is a fake, a construction made to appear consistent but actually a product of a series of people or committees, with the aim to create a cultural identity to a tribal group living in Palestine.

So 99% of the text is set aside and hunting for small linguistical hints are looked for, like how God is named, the type of sentence structure, the coherence between books etc. Unbelief becomes the driving thread of it all, except one is actually dealing with the extraordinary, going backwards from the time of Moses. It is clear that for many centuries all that remained after the exile was the Torah and commentaries of one sort or another about the history of Israel. What has happened over the last 100 years is discovery after discovery of the historical accuracy of scripture and the people it mentions. Rather than a construction, it is records of witnesses passing through these points, with Kings and powers and really odd stand offs. One such odd situation is Hezekiah, Sennacherib King of Assyria, and Isaiah.

The King of Assyria conquers Israel and is determined to crush Hezekiah. A plague saves the day, Sennacherib withdraws. Like a lot of events in Israel, it was a nation about to be destroyed, but it survives. Other historical sources show this story, though it misses out why Jerusalem was not destroyed, which is not surprising, as the hand of God is not exactly something you advertise.

Another area for me is the history of the Hittites, who were discovered as a group who prospered for 500 years in turkey and come into biblical history. So many of the biblical critics claimed these things are just inventions, fairy stories, and their foundation for saying this is how names of God were used in texts. If anything modern times has given us, is scripture is historically foundational, and a wonder from ancient times, no matter the implications, it is not like any other document we have.

Now I am not a 7 day creationist, but knowing that things are not what they seem, it does not matter. The thrust of the stories is God is sovereign and I need to seek out my greatest friend and Father.

There are some profound questions about the garden of Eden and creation. God himself is the only witness, and He alone dictated these perspectives. Within these perspectives are two versions of the story. A talking snake, a symbolic personification of evil, of temptation, of doubt, of ambition and elevation, over boundaries, relationship and trust. Eden in Iraq, a very desert dry empty place. Things have changed greatly since this story took place. But also what is unusual is placing such a story in a geographic historical setting.

For me this underlines another thread of philosophical thought, what is life for, our independent, emotional and relationship focused existence. We live on a globe with a skin 30 miles high, and literally everywhere else we die. Our whole lives are flowering in a field, enjoying the best life offers and then we fade and go away. And we desire certainty, absolutes, security, meaning, idealism, the stopping of suffering, and yet in this struggle we as a civilisation have created unbelievable suffering and death. So we are a contradiction, and our certainty is just self pomposity, rather than admitting everything is a compromise and our hearts need to walk the path we truly desire, the walk of love. God bless you

Good post - even if I don't agree with everything - was a coherent expression of your thoughts .. something one can respond to .. which is often not the case ... so kudo's for that :)

I don't agree that all criticism starts with the premise "Everything is Fake" - and that was certainly not the direction of my walk - nor was it the direction of numerous others.

My walk started out in a very religious home - Lutheran - Church 3 times a week sometimes during Xmas and such... Confirmation classes - the whole gamut but as more of an insider as I have close relatives who are of the Cloth (not the use of the plural on the word "relative" )

Even when I was young I noticed things that were problematic - being an avid reader I had read the entire Bible at least once by a young age and certain sections I liked such as Genesis, Proverbs Ecclesiastes and so on .. numerous times. What I also noticed though was differences between "My religion" as per the Lutheran Perspective .. vs other Christian denominations .. in particular the Fundamentalist Evangelicals - Pentecostals .. and others of the same ilk. Some so strict they wouldn't let their children dance. Drinking alcohol was forbidden - and some Churches changed the sacred ritual by substituting grape juice for wine.

Lets just say I have been having this specific conversation for a long long time -as I am now past 50. Had a friend of mine abducted into what I would consider a "cult" in my early 20's .. was my best friend actually .. was a Christian Group ... but was strange ..

Anyway - my relatives attended the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod Seminary - this is serious business - 8 years - learning Latin, Greek and Hebrew. These are Learned men - unlike some of the Online "Become a Preacher in one year" variety.

Nothing I have said would shock or even surprise these men - they are well aware of these things - taught some of the things I have related - are well aware that 2 Timothy is Pseudepigrapha - penned by the some author under the name of Paul - roughly `140-170 AD .. or that "Christ Shedding Tears of Blood" was a later addition by an overzealous scribe wanting Christ to appear more human.

Catholic -Orthodox Seminary - Same thing.

So this covers a rather wide swath of Christianity --- the founding Protestant Church - Catholic and Orthodox - along with the rest of Biblical Scholarship in general.

One group within Christianity dissents - the aforementioned group... fundamentalists in general "Evangelical Fundamentalists" being the most respected of the group .. ... to the other end of the spectrum Pentecostals - who are considered heretics by the mainstream - and for good reason IMO. There was this one Church - a Lutheran Church that went Pentecostal .. a church I have been to on a number of occasions.. Some of the more prominent ones "Speaking in Tongues" = asking God a question and the Holy Spirit Giving you the answer - which comes via some "interpreter" who apparently can understand the gibberish being blabbled - Youtube can provide you with thousands of examples of what "Gibberish being blabbled" refers to.

In any case - two interpreters came up with contradictory answers to the same question .. " Ouch" - and the Church split along lines and was divided and fighting. One of my relatives had to go in and resolve the issue. A number of years later that Church was out of the Missouri Synod. Dat be heresy being practiced.. usurping the position of the Logos if you want the technical term.

To have to believe that there was a flood that covered the whole planet - killing every land creature - sans Noah and kin - around 2100-2400BC - in order to be a Christian ... does a disservice to the Faith - IMO.
 

jaybird

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If you don't Believe and like Prosperity you won't like Heaven. No single wide trailers there. God won't give you what you refuse to receive. Your power in in your saying and believing and God loves to bless His family!

jesse duplantis smh where do i even begin. i love it when him and copeland get together and try to justify these lavish multi million dollar private jets they have. first of all, whats wrong with the churches in these places they are flying to? did Jesus, John the baptist, st Paul and the 12 have private jets?
private jets, mansions, luxury cars and money, money, money CHA CHING! are things of this world, i hope heaven is above all that.
 
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jaybird

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3rd world countries, the most poorest countries in the world, lack material possessions, yet they are the richest - why? Because they get to SEE and KNOW Jehovah Jireh! Their faith would put many of ours to shame, they rely on God to provide for food, water, we just buy at a store. Can you imagine their thankfulness when God provides these people with the basics of life?

We should desire what they have! It's a treasure worthy of storing. He is building their character, transforming them so Christ is manifested in them! WOW! That is something to pursue, am I right?

Praise God He puts on His people's hearts to pursue Him, pursue His Kingdom and His righteousness and not material possessions! I will take YOU God, over great wealth! He alone is worthy of all praise!

IMO you dont have to go to a third world country for this, but i get what you are saying, you can go visit five poor families here in the US, then go visit five rich families. talk about Jesus with all of them and see which ones are closer to Jesus.
 

GISMYS_7

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Your choice!!! Live in the blessings and prosperity of God or live poor and sick!!!
 

jaybird

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Your choice!!! Live in the blessings and prosperity of God or live poor and sick!!!
Those wall street banks must be so blessed by the Lord since they have so much money. How many lives have they destroyed to get all that money?
 

Davy

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jesse duplantis smh where do i even begin. i love it when him and copeland get together and try to justify these lavish multi million dollar private jets they have. first of all, whats wrong with the churches in these places they are flying to? did Jesus, John the baptist, st Paul and the 12 have private jets?
private jets, mansions, luxury cars and money, money, money CHA CHING! are things of this world, i hope heaven is above all that.

Heaven is above all that, which is why the unlearned should be asking themselves just why... God allows those fakes to exist and fool so many of His people.

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
KJV


Oh, I forgot, Dispensationalists and those on a false Pre-trib Rapture theory are taught Christ's Olivet discourse there is not for the Church! So don't... read and heed what Lord Jesus warned there!
 
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jaybird

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Heaven is above all that, which is why the unlearned should be asking themselves just why... God allows those fakes to exist and fool so many of His people.

Matt 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
KJV


Oh, I forgot, Dispensationalists and those on a false Pre-trib Rapture theory are taught Christ's Olivet discourse there is not for the Church! So don't... read and heed what Lord Jesus warned there!
Dispensationalist is where you believe the way of today is different than the way Jesus and the 12 did things? Hard to keep up with all the "isms".
 

jaybird

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this is a good video of copeland and duplantis trying to justify their luxury jets. i love it when copeland says he cant ride in a plane among the common people because they are all on dope, demon possessed and worse yet, they might bother him with prayer request.