People are not saved automatically, and never were, obedience to God is a requirement for life. My question to you was, do you think God would require something from you and not instruct you on how to do it?
If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?
- Thread starter Robert Gwin
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People are not saved automatically, and never were, obedience to God is a requirement for life. My question to you was, do you think God would require something from you and not instruct you on how to do it?
You do understand that "this" religious organization was our religious organization correct Barn? I know it is not talked about much, other than their unfaithfulness. The covenant was even kept in force till 36CE likely to ease the changeover.
No sir, not even the same names, they actually make up the Israel of God Gal 6:16, and are bought out from all tribes, nations, peoples and tongues Rev 5:9,10. That is what the Bible really teaches Ron
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
That organization, who were the Pharisees that Jesus said to them, Satan was their Father, were Jews who lived by the law covenant. I don't know about you, but I have never belonged to a religious organization that taught me to live or that I must live by the law covenant. These Jews who were the Pharisees, who were the religious leaders of the Jews they kept the nation of Israel observing the law covenant and the animal sacrifices, right up until 70CE when the Romans came in and destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the Temple. It was the apostles and disciples of Jesus who stopped observing the law covenant and animal sacrifices. The nation as a whole kept observing the law covenant and animal sacrifices until Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed in 70CE
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No bob: That is what teh watchtower command syou to believe what teh Bible teaches.
But the bible teaches that the 144,000 are 12,000 from twelve tribes of Israel! That is all. All the rest is made up nonsense from a false Christian orgasnization seeking to decieve people from doing the one thing that will let them enter the kingdom of heaven.
bTW the number in rev. 5 is 24
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
And the REv. 5 people are in heaven while the 144,000 are on earth. That is what the Bible teaches Bob.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Of course God has instructed us...however, it gets really simple when you consider the thief on the cross, who simply believed and then died.
I kind of think that 70 CE is a tad bit after 36 bro. They were Jehovah's witnesses until the Law covenant was no more, at that point if you want to get technical they apostatized, why? Because they refused to accept the new covenant that went into force on Pentecost of 33. That organization was made up of our pre-Christian brothers and sisters Barn. I fail to understand why you are arguing about our history, what's up? You are one of Jehovah's witnesses correct?
Time will tell sir. those who sing the "new song" are the 144k sir, and they are the ones that leave the earth Rev 14:3 I guess we are at exactly opposite ends on this point Ron.
I hope you are not saying that is all that is required Scott. You are correct, that man will see paradise, but would he have seen paradise if they let him down and he survived and continued on in his crime? There is a point where an individual comes in line for salvation, but all Christians sign on for an eternity sir, a continuous growth to perfection, and then maintaining that perfection.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
I should think that since Jesus was conclusive, that the matter was conclusive also, and that the thief was changed that very moment.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Well you can believe that the majority of the Jews believed Jesus Christ and his apostles and disciples. That isn't true however, the nation of Israel as a whole didn't recognize Jesus as being the Messiah. They continued sacrificing animal sacrifices until the temple was destroyed in 70CE. The true Christians in the nation of Israel were a minority of the people of Israel.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes we are at opposit ends, as we are inmost points.
But remember this Bob, Jesus said if you even want to see teh kingdom of god- you must be born again! The watchtower is keeping you from that necceesity by their twisitng of teh Scriptures to their own destruction, and the destruction of all those who follow their pernicious and evil ways.
I agree! But of course that was not my point Scott, are you a believer in once saved always saved sir?
The problem I think Ron is that you do not quite understand what the term means sir. And I mean no disrespect in saying that. You are quite correct in what you say, but I think you do not realize that is referring to the heavenly Kingdom of God. I can state quite simply that only those born again will see the heavenly Kingdom, that they have been redeemed from the earth for a reason, and that they are the only ones who the new covenant governs sir. I think you misunderstand the two groups of sheep of Jn 10:16
If you would like we could reason further on it.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
It is an absurd question, even defying the very meaning of the word--it is against the character of God as being "good." But yes, saved is saved, or it is not.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well you deliberately forget bob, that teh kingdom of heaven comes down to the new earth. You will not even get to see thgat kingdom because you believe the lie the Watchtower tewlls you that you cannot be born again!
Jesus says you must- the Watchtower forbids you!
But they have had well over 250,000 of the 144,000 to keep them alive until armegeddon. Quite nice they get to play god and posthumously remove people from that false faithful and discreet slave class or whatever term the 144,000 are called.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I told you right from the start that the majority of the Jews didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, that only a minority of the Jews in Israel were exercising faith in Jesus Christ. The majority of the Jews in Israel agreed with the Pharisees. I also said that the nation of Israel as a whole were sacrificing animal sacrifices up to 70CE. I didn't say the true servants of God, who were the apostles and disciples of Jesus were sacrificing animal sacrifices.
We certainly do not have alive today 250k of the 144k, that was silly to post sir. You may be correct that among those who attend the Christian passover that 250k may partake, so logically many of them are partaking unworthily (1 Corinthians 11:27) . . .whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord.
I guess the problem lies in understanding the two groups of sheep Ron.
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