If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

[Robert Gwin]

I told you right from the start that the majority of the Jews didn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, that only a minority of the Jews in Israel were exercising faith in Jesus Christ. The majority of the Jews in Israel agreed with the Pharisees. I also said that the nation of Israel as a whole were sacrificing animal sacrifices up to 70CE. I didn't say the true servants of God, who were the apostles and disciples of Jesus were sacrificing animal sacrifices.

That wasn't even the point anyway Barn, you failed to recognize our brothers and sisters at the time of Jesus, and evolved it to be after if you follow the conversation. Those who continued to reject the Law of the Christ and chose to remain under the Law covenant, were not fully rejected until 36CE, as Jehovah kept the covenant in force till the end of the week sir.
(Daniel 9:27) . . .“And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.. . .

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

That wasn't even the point anyway Barn, you failed to recognize our brothers and sisters at the time of Jesus, and evolved it to be after if you follow the conversation. Those who continued to reject the Law of the Christ and chose to remain under the Law covenant, were not fully rejected until 36CE, as Jehovah kept the covenant in force till the end of the week sir.
(Daniel 9:27) . . .“And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.. . .

The point I was trying to make is that the majority of the Jews as a nation didn't exercise faith that Jesus was the Messiah but kept observing the law covenant right up to 70 CE. So those Jews or those Israelites were not truly Gods people because they chose not to exercise faith in Jesus. When it comes to the true servants of God considering the history all the way back to Noah and beyond the true servants of God were not the majority of the people. There were many more unfaithful servants of God than faithful servants of God during the days of Enoch that the people wanted to killed Enoch. The majority of the people were unfaithful during the days that God destroyed the world of unrighteous mankind that only 8 people survived that destruction, Noah and his family. This is what I'm talking about Robert, that the true servants of God never represented the majority of mankind. There was always a remnant among mankind that were true servants of the true God, who.lived by faith, but the majority of mankind were unfaithful, not true servants of the true God. This is also true when God was dealing with the nation of Israel, the majority of the Jews were not true Jews because the majority of the Jews or Israelites were unfaithful. A true Jew or a true Israelite was a person who had the faith like Abraham. There was always a remnant of these faithful people during the history God has been dealing with Adam and Eve's offspring. This is true when God was dealing with Israel as a nation. The nation of Israel kept being unfaithful because the faithful servants didn't represent the majority of the nation but there was always a remnant of faithful servants of God in the nation. Just because a Jew or Israelite was a citizen of the nation of Israel didn't make that person a faithful or true Jew or a faithful servant of the true God, or didn't make that person a true Israelite. The citizen of Israel that lived by faith were the true Jews or the true Israelite. The majority of the Jews during the days of Jesus and his apostles and disciples were unfaithful so they continued after Jesus death and resurrection to observe the law covenant and the sacrifices up to when the city of Jerusalem and it's temple we're destroyed in 70CE.
Even when the apostles began preaching to the gentle nations in 36CE the true Christians were the true faithful servants of the true God that lived by faith as Abraham. They didn't represent the majority of the people in each gentle nation. So although the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ preached to the then known world only a remnant of mankind were true christians. This is true today. The true servants of the true God who are true Christians don't represent the majority of mankind. Toay there's over 8 billion people on this world but the true servants of the true God the true Christians are only a little over 8 million. A small remnant of mankind is faithful, are true Christians. So throughout the history of God dealing with the offspring of Adam and Eve there has always been a remnant that chose to exercise faith in the true God. The true servants of the true God have never represented the majority of mankind.

 

[ScottA]

May I ask you to define saved Scott

If one is saved they have been set free from sin and death by being born again of the spirit of God, and have become one with Him.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We certainly do not have alive today 250k of the 144k, that was silly to post sir. You may be correct that among those who attend the Christian passover that 250k may partake, so logically many of them are partaking unworthily (1 Corinthians 11:27) . . .whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord.

I guess the problem lies in understanding the two groups of sheep Ron.

No bob, if one believes the bible instead of men, we know the two groups of sheep are the gentiles! Paul made that clear when He said Jew and gentile are one in Christ.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus said we would be one fold, teh Watchtower makes two folds! they rob you . To quote Jesus

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The point I was trying to make is that the majority of the Jews as a nation didn't exercise faith that Jesus was the Messiah but kept observing the law covenant right up to 70 CE. So those Jews or those Israelites were not truly Gods people because they chose not to exercise faith in Jesus. When it comes to the true servants of God considering the history all the way back to Noah and beyond the true servants of God were not the majority of the people. There were many more unfaithful servants of God than faithful servants of God during the days of Enoch that the people wanted to killed Enoch. The majority of the people were unfaithful during the days that God destroyed the world of unrighteous mankind that only 8 people survived that destruction, Noah and his family. This is what I'm talking about Robert, that the true servants of God never represented the majority of mankind. There was always a remnant among mankind that were true servants of the true God, who.lived by faith, but the majority of mankind were unfaithful, not true servants of the true God. This is also true when God was dealing with the nation of Israel, the majority of the Jews were not true Jews because the majority of the Jews or Israelites were unfaithful. A true Jew or a true Israelite was a person who had the faith like Abraham. There was always a remnant of these faithful people during the history God has been dealing with Adam and Eve's offspring. This is true when God was dealing with Israel as a nation. The nation of Israel kept being unfaithful because the faithful servants didn't represent the majority of the nation but there was always a remnant of faithful servants of God in the nation. Just because a Jew or Israelite was a citizen of the nation of Israel didn't make that person a faithful or true Jew or a faithful servant of the true God, or didn't make that person a true Israelite. The citizen of Israel that lived by faith were the true Jews or the true Israelite. The majority of the Jews during the days of Jesus and his apostles and disciples were unfaithful so they continued after Jesus death and resurrection to observe the law covenant and the sacrifices up to when the city of Jerusalem and it's temple we're destroyed in 70CE.
Even when the apostles began preaching to the gentle nations in 36CE the true Christians were the true faithful servants of the true God that lived by faith as Abraham. They didn't represent the majority of the people in each gentle nation. So although the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ preached to the then known world only a remnant of mankind were true christians. This is true today. The true servants of the true God who are true Christians don't represent the majority of mankind. Toay there's over 8 billion people on this world but the true servants of the true God the true Christians are only a little over 8 million. A small remnant of mankind is faithful, are true Christians. So throughout the history of God dealing with the offspring of Adam and Eve there has always been a remnant that chose to exercise faith in the true God. The true servants of the true God have never represented the majority of mankind.

Again Barn, back to the context, those who rejected the Messiah as recorded in the Bible were God's covenanted people. You are saying that out of all of them, only a few were true people of God, but then you say today that all of God's people today are faithful, why so today and not then sir? The only thing I disagree with you on is that you have indicated that they were not God's people, those that rejected Jesus as the Messiah. My point was, would you have rejected the Messiah when he came, and by percentages dear brother most likely you and I would have.

 

[Robert Gwin]

If one is saved they have been set free from sin and death by being born again of the spirit of God, and have become one with Him.

Thank you Scott. My definition is different as I thought it may be. I define the term saved, the same as salvation. Perhaps you may as well. Salvation is receiving the gift of everlasting life, which none of us who are alive at this time has received yet. In fact for most of us it is at least a millennium away.

You mentioned those born again are saved, are you familiar with Heb 6:4-6 sir? After contemplating those verses, do you still contend they were saved?

 

[Robert Gwin]

No bob, if one believes the bible instead of men, we know the two groups of sheep are the gentiles! Paul made that clear when He said Jew and gentile are one in Christ.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus said we would be one fold, teh Watchtower makes two folds! they rob you . To quote Jesus

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Keep in mind Ron, Jesus said it and it was recorded in the Bible for us, therefore it has to be true. The "Watchtower" as you continue to refer to, did not invent those words, they came from God's anointed son. Labels are simply that Ron, I won't argue what you have chosen to call those two groups of sheep, and in all honesty you are not incorrect in labeling them that way, because there is an element of truth in it, but you have to know who are the anointed sheep the little flock, and the other sheep which you have called Gentiles.

The sheep of the fold Jesus referred to are in fact Israelites by title Gal 6:16. However they come from all tribes, nations, peoples, and tongues Rev 5:9,10. The other sheep can be called Gentiles since they are not actually the covenanted people of God, rather the citizens that make up those who will inherit the earth. They as well come from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues including descendants of Abraham. That is the two folds of sheep sir.

 

[Nancy]

Have you ever put yourself in the shoes of God's people who underwent a changeover to a new covenant? How hard it might be to accept. God had a nation, a covenanted people of Abrahams descendants for centuries, when a seeming criminal apostate put into force a new covenant, open to all peoples, with completely new laws. What is more, that individual was executed by the authorities, would you have believed he was God's son at the time?

Looking back, it is easy for us to see he was the Messiah, and we fully accept the new covenant, but God still only has one people, those who worship Him with spirit and truth. How about you, if you found out you were in the wrong faith, would you be willing to accept the faith that is identified by Scripture?

Hi Robert,
Yes, this I have done many times throughout life. It had to be very difficult to break old habits and beliefs yet, they had Christ right there with them performing all kinds of miracles, their eyes were opened newly to the OT scriptures concerning the Messiah.

I see a remnant of Christians from all denominations worshipping Him in Spirit and Truth. In the early 1990's, I purchased books on all of the major religions and just kept coming back to Christianity as it was the only one made sense to me. And the contrasts to the others was glaring so, I have been growing in Him as a CHRISTIAN...I do not subscribe to ANY denomination.
IF, I thought I did not have His truth then yes, I would be more than willing to change faiths but, that is NOT going to happen after 30 some years of finding more and more truth in His word and through His people.
Many blessings bro!

 

[ScottA]

Thank you Scott. My definition is different as I thought it may be. I define the term saved, the same as salvation. Perhaps you may as well. Salvation is receiving the gift of everlasting life, which none of us who are alive at this time has received yet. In fact for most of us it is at least a millennium away.

"Saved" and "salvation" are synonymous.

You mentioned those born again are saved, are you familiar with Heb 6:4-6 sir? After contemplating those verses, do you still contend they were saved?

The key word here is "Hebrews." Who, being of that ("this") generation of Christ, were on the cusp of salvation's coming, of whom Jesus said, "some standing here will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”...some, but not all. This is why Paul indicated the need of "rightly dividing the word of truth", because parts referred to "some" and not to others. Meaning, that if you take the whole passage and apply it to these times of the gentiles, you will be in error to "some" extent. Therefore, I am telling you those "some" are the "born again" which is eternal life; and that is the experience that Paul also described as those who are "alive and remain" (in the world, in the flesh--which means "to live is Christ", which they/we do until the passing of the flesh).

Which, if you have not already noticed...I am not just weighing in with my "opinion" or what I "believe", but rather what I know from God. Therefore, I am telling you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Keep in mind Ron, Jesus said it and it was recorded in the Bible for us, therefore it has to be true. The "Watchtower" as you continue to refer to, did not invent those words, they came from God's anointed son. Labels are simply that Ron, I won't argue what you have chosen to call those two groups of sheep, and in all honesty you are not incorrect in labeling them that way, because there is an element of truth in it, but you have to know who are the anointed sheep the little flock, and the other sheep which you have called Gentiles.

The sheep of the fold Jesus referred to are in fact Israelites by title Gal 6:16. However they come from all tribes, nations, peoples, and tongues Rev 5:9,10. The other sheep can be called Gentiles since they are not actually the covenanted people of God, rather the citizens that make up those who will inherit the earth. They as well come from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues including descendants of Abraham. That is the two folds of sheep sir.

Nice way to muddy simple definitions of words to muddy a conversation.

No the Watchtower di dnot make up the words. They just made up the deceitful definition they use to deny you the right to even see teh kingdom of god, when it descends to the earth.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Again Barn, back to the context, those who rejected the Mes those siah as recorded in the Bible were God's covenanted people. You are saying that out of all of them, only a few were true people of God, but then you say today that all of God's people today are faithful, why so today and not then sir? The only thing I disagree with you on is that you have indicated that they were not God's people, those that rejected Jesus as the Messiah. My point was, would you have rejected the Messiah when he came, and by percentages dear brother most likely you and I would have.

I know that the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with the true God. I just think you are forgetting the fact that right from the start God has always wanted people to love him so much they would exercise faith in him. This was true for the first man Adam right down through today. God wants people to love him so much that they will exercise faith that it is he alone who knows what is in the best interests of what he created(good) and what isn't in the best interests of what he created,(evil) and that the true God would never expect the impossible from humans, that he would never command them to do something that's impossible for them to do.
This of course would also be true for the nation of Israel. Yes God was in a covenant relationship with the nation of Israel, but that doesn't mean the nation as a whole exercised faith in the true God as he required. Those who were the true servants of God are those who exercise faith in him, and even though God was in a covenant relationship with Israel as a whole the nation was unfaithful. But there was a remnant or a minority of those people of the nation of Israel that were faithful. All throughout the history of the nation of Israel there were those who were exercising faith and sonremsined faithful even though the nation as a whole though was constantly unfaithful which is why God allowed the gentle nations to trample on Jerusalem and Israel. As a nation, Israel no longer represented God's kingdom on earth because of their constant unfaithfulness. Jesus when he was on the world with his apostles and disciples only represented a minority of the population of Israel and because of the nation of Israel constant unfathfulness as a whole the kingdom was taken from them and given to another nation, that nation is spiritual Israel.
The point I'm making is since there has always been a remnant, or a minority of the population of Israel that have been faithful, the nation as a whole could have been just as faithful, they just chose not to be.
In post #1 you said, "Have you ever put yourself in the shoes of God's people who underwent a changeover to a new covenant?
How hard it might be to accept. God had a nation, a covenanted people of Abrahams descendants for centuries, when a seeming criminal apostate put into force a new covenant, open to all peoples, with completely new laws. What is more, that individual was executed by the authorities, would you have believed he was God's son at the time?"
"Looking back, it is easy for us to see he was the Messiah, and we fully accept the new covenant, but God still only has one people, those who worship Him with spirit and truth. How about you, if you found out you were in the wrong faith, would you be willing to accept the faith that is identified by Scripture?"

Well there were a people who believed him to be the Christ, the son of the living God during that time. They were few, a minority, in comparison to the population of Israel yes, but just as they we're able to exercise that faith that Jesus was the son of God, the rest of the nation could have exercised that faith. Just because only a few exercised that faith doesn't make it hard to exercise that faith.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Hi Robert,
Yes, this I have done many times throughout life. It had to be very difficult to break old habits and beliefs yet, they had Christ right there with them performing all kinds of miracles, their eyes were opened newly to the OT scriptures concerning the Messiah.

I see a remnant of Christians from all denominations worshipping Him in Spirit and Truth. In the early 1990's, I purchased books on all of the major religions and just kept coming back to Christianity as it was the only one made sense to me. And the contrasts to the others was glaring so, I have been growing in Him as a CHRISTIAN...I do not subscribe to ANY denomination.
IF, I thought I did not have His truth then yes, I would be more than willing to change faiths but, that is NOT going to happen after 30 some years of finding more and more truth in His word and through His people.
Many blessings bro!

Hi Nancy, have you ever wondered where all the Christian denominations came from, and if God accepts them? You quoted Jn 4:24, and while I will openly admit all faiths have some truth, and none have absolute truth, I believe it is impossible for more than one denomination to fit that verse maam. I hope you are correct, but throughout Bible history, Jehovah only has one group of people.

 

[Robert Gwin]

"Saved" and "salvation" are synonymous.
The key word here is "Hebrews." Who, being of that ("this") generation of Christ, were on the cusp of salvation's coming, of whom Jesus said, "some standing here will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”...some, but not all. This is why Paul indicated the need of "rightly dividing the word of truth", because parts referred to "some" and not to others. Meaning, that if you take the whole passage and apply it to these times of the gentiles, you will be in error to "some" extent. Therefore, I am telling you those "some" are the "born again" which is eternal life; and that is the experience that Paul also described as those who are "alive and remain" (in the world, in the flesh--which means "to live is Christ", which they/we do until the passing of the flesh).

Which, if you have not already noticed...I am not just weighing in with my "opinion" or what I "believe", but rather what I know from God. Therefore, I am telling you.

I guess to aid in understanding I will give you our understanding on born again. There are many descriptive titles applied to those born again Scott, bride of Christ, 144k, anointed, holy ones, saints, etc but they are those that have been chosen to reside in heaven to be Kings and Priests along with King Jesus in ruling over the earth during the millennial reign of Christ. They are born again because they have been baptized by holy spirit. They are the little flock, the Israel of God. Luke 12:32; Gal 6:16

We do not choose to be born again, those individuals are selected by God sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Nice way to muddy simple definitions of words to muddy a conversation.

No the Watchtower di dnot make up the words. They just made up the deceitful definition they use to deny you the right to even see teh kingdom of god, when it descends to the earth.

believe it or not sir, time will reveal the truth of the matter

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy, have you ever wondered where all the Christian denominations came from, and if God accepts them? You quoted Jn 4:24, and while I will openly admit all faiths have some truth, and none have absolute truth, I believe it is impossible for more than one denomination to fit that verse maam. I hope you are correct, but throughout Bible history, Jehovah only has one group of people.

I understand what you are saying, it is still only one "group" of people just from different demons. I have no back up on this as they are only my thoughts. There are many Protestants who think all Catholics, are going to hell...I do not believe that. Same with all JW's or SDA's or Mormons, I don't think they are all going to hell anymore than any other Protestant denomination. As long as Jesus is the only way to the Father and one believes this, I am thinking God will only be looking at their heart then, because they are being honest about their salvation. JMHO BRO!

 

[Robert Gwin]

I know that the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with the true God. I just think you are forgetting the fact that right from the start God has always wanted people to love him so much they would exercise faith in him. This was true for the first man Adam right down through today. God wants people to love him so much that they will exercise faith that it is he alone who knows what is in the best interests of what he created(good) and what isn't in the best interests of what he created,(evil) and that the true God would never expect the impossible from humans, that he would never command them to do something that's impossible for them to do.
This of course would also be true for the nation of Israel. Yes God was in a covenant relationship with the nation of Israel, but that doesn't mean the nation as a whole exercised faith in the true God as he required. Those who were the true servants of God are those who exercise faith in him, and even though God was in a covenant relationship with Israel as a whole the nation was unfaithful. But there was a remnant or a minority of those people of the nation of Israel that were faithful. All throughout the history of the nation of Israel there were those who were exercising faith and sonremsined faithful even though the nation as a whole though was constantly unfaithful which is why God allowed the gentle nations to trample on Jerusalem and Israel. As a nation, Israel no longer represented God's kingdom on earth because of their constant unfaithfulness. Jesus when he was on the world with his apostles and disciples only represented a minority of the population of Israel and because of the nation of Israel constant unfathfulness as a whole the kingdom was taken from them and given to another nation, that nation is spiritual Israel.
The point I'm making is since there has always been a remnant, or a minority of the population of Israel that have been faithful, the nation as a whole could have been just as faithful, they just chose not to be.
In post #1 you said, "Have you ever put yourself in the shoes of God's people who underwent a changeover to a new covenant?
How hard it might be to accept. God had a nation, a covenanted people of Abrahams descendants for centuries, when a seeming criminal apostate put into force a new covenant, open to all peoples, with completely new laws. What is more, that individual was executed by the authorities, would you have believed he was God's son at the time?"
"Looking back, it is easy for us to see he was the Messiah, and we fully accept the new covenant, but God still only has one people, those who worship Him with spirit and truth. How about you, if you found out you were in the wrong faith, would you be willing to accept the faith that is identified by Scripture?"

Well there were a people who believed him to be the Christ, the son of the living God during that time. They were few, a minority, in comparison to the population of Israel yes, but just as they we're able to exercise that faith that Jesus was the son of God, the rest of the nation could have exercised that faith. Just because only a few exercised that faith doesn't make it hard to exercise that faith.

I am one of Jehovah's witnesses Barn, why on earth would you think that I would think that God does not want us to love Him sir? That makes absolutely no sense to me. You quoted my post in full, and like I asked, put yourself in their shoes, compare the scene with the way the Christian congregation is governed today if a complete changeup seemingly overnite happened. God even kept the covenant in force for another 3 and a half years as a buffer to the changeover, and yes many of us accepted the new covenant. Keep in mind, they were not fed like we are as well, you are absolutely correct, many knew the time for the Messiah was then, and many believed Jesus was the Christ, but a historic fact that we mention occasionally is that out of all the people of God, only 120 were present when God poured out His holy spirit sealing the new covenant on Pentecost of 33 CE.

I would like to think that all Jehovah's witnesses today are Jehovah's Witnesses, but what makes us any different than our pre-Christian brothers and sisters?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I understand what you are saying, it is still only one "group" of people just from different demons. I have no back up on this as they are only my thoughts. There are many Protestants who think all Catholics, are going to hell...I do not believe that. Same with all JW's or SDA's or Mormons, I don't think they are all going to hell anymore than any other Protestant denomination. As long as Jesus is the only way to the Father and one believes this, I am thinking God will only be looking at their heart then, because they are being honest about their salvation. JMHO BRO!

Agreed. Christ looks on the heart, not the label on the pew.

 

[Nancy]

Agreed. Christ looks on the heart, not the label on the pew.

Meant DENOMS. > NOT demons

 

[ScottA]

I guess to aid in understanding I will give you our understanding on born again. There are many descriptive titles applied to those born again Scott, bride of Christ, 144k, anointed, holy ones, saints, etc but they are those that have been chosen to reside in heaven to be Kings and Priests along with King Jesus in ruling over the earth during the millennial reign of Christ. They are born again because they have been baptized by holy spirit. They are the little flock, the Israel of God. Luke 12:32; Gal 6:16

We do not choose to be born again, those individuals are selected by God sir.

Jesus did not explain being born again in that way. But rather, that it is a necessity for all before entering into the kingdom of God. Verily, verily.

As for reigning with Christ, that has been occurring since Peter confirmed the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

I could say more...but these things must first be received and excepted.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

believe it or not sir, time will reveal the truth of the matter

And if you die still holding to the lie the Watchtower has indoctrinated you in, god will replay these written conversations before casting you into teh lake of fire to suffer forever. I say that not to condemn you but to plead with you to accept Gods Word instead of teh Watchtower.