If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I am one of Jehovah's witnesses Barn, why on earth would you think that I would think that God does not want us to love Him sir? That makes absolutely no sense to me. You quoted my post in full, and like I asked, put yourself in their shoes, compare the scene with the way the Christian congregation is governed today if a complete changeup seemingly overnite happened. God even kept the covenant in force for another 3 and a half years as a buffer to the changeover, and yes many of us accepted the new covenant. Keep in mind, they were not fed like we are as well, you are absolutely correct, many knew the time for the Messiah was then, and many believed Jesus was the Christ, but a historic fact that we mention occasionally is that out of all the people of God, only 120 were present when God poured out His holy spirit sealing the new covenant on Pentecost of 33 CE.

I would like to think that all Jehovah's witnesses today are Jehovah's Witnesses, but what makes us any different than our pre-Christian brothers and sisters?

I understand that you said you're a Jehovah's Witness, but what you said in post #1 the way you texted it, makes me think you're trying to say that the people back then may have thought it unreasonable to believe Jesus was the son of God, that it couldn't be true. Why, because the fact that Jesus was said to be a criminal apostate and that he was executed by the authorities as an criminal apostate. Then you tell me to put myself in their shoes and think what Robert, that it was reasonable that I too wouldn't believe he was God's son. Do you honestly believe it was reasonable for the majority of the Jews to believe that it was unreasonable for any Jew to believe that Jesus was the son of God for the reasons you texted in post #1. Because I don't. I think I would believe Jesus to be the son of God. Why, because of the things he did Robert. He healed everyone who came to him to be healed. He cleaned everyone that had a demonic spirit that was brought to him, and he raised the dead, one who had been dead for three days. I think that those things that Jesus did, should have been considered by the majority of Jews back then, but they really didn't. So what it's reasonable for those Jews to think it unreasonable to believe Jesus to be the son of God, in spite of the fact all those miracles he did. I don't think I would ever be able to ignore those powerful miracles that Jesus did and I wouldn't care what the majority of the Jews thought about Jesus because those miracles he did couldn't have been done unless he had God on his side. He certainly couldn't do those things if he were a demon, especially raising the dead. So if I put myself in the Jews shoes back then I think I would agree with the apostles that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

One CAN NOT be in the WRONG FAITH.
One cannot believe ALL the word of God and hope God excuses them.............he won't!

There is one FAITH and that is being obedient and following ALL that God says, commands, promises and is backed by his word.

Now there are many demoninations, organizations, corporations and cults abounding without God.

I do pray that ALL would come out from among them and stand with God and his word!

 

[Robert Gwin]

I understand what you are saying, it is still only one "group" of people just from different demons. I have no back up on this as they are only my thoughts. There are many Protestants who think all Catholics, are going to hell...I do not believe that. Same with all JW's or SDA's or Mormons, I don't think they are all going to hell anymore than any other Protestant denomination. As long as Jesus is the only way to the Father and one believes this, I am thinking God will only be looking at their heart then, because they are being honest about their salvation. JMHO BRO!

Would you like to discuss where all the denominations came from Maam?

 

[Brakelite]

They were looking for the Messiah to come...but with different expectations.

Let that sink in.

I wonder if any are up to comparing Israel's expectations experience (and the outcome), with that of our own time of looking for Him to come again...and our expectations. Anyone see a comparison?

Yes. Israel were looking for a Lion, and they got a Lamb, slain. People today think the Christ is still that Lamb... They won't be expecting a Lion.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Agreed. Christ looks on the heart, not the label on the pew.

Would you consider those who refuse to assemble with God's people to have good hearts Jane Heb 10:24,25 is a commandment maam.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Would you consider those who refuse to assemble with God's people to have good hearts Jane Heb 10:24,25 is a commandment maam.

God is the Judge, not me. I just urge people to follow Him the best I can.

And anyways my comment was more speaking against the position that I see so commonly that “X denomination is damned” or”you must believe as I do or you are damned”.

 

[ChristisGod]

Would you like to discuss where all the denominations came from Maam?

yours came from somewhere lol, I guess no one was saved until the WTS came on the scene right ?

I mean they teach one cannot be saved unless you are in the organization.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus did not explain being born again in that way. But rather, that it is a necessity for all before entering into the kingdom of God. Verily, verily.

As for reigning with Christ, that has been occurring since Peter confirmed the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

I could say more...but these things must first be received and excepted.

It is actually your perception Scott, as well as mine. I gave you our understanding of what born again means, and since you disagree, would you be so kind as to give your take on what it means to be born again.

 

[Robert Gwin]

And if you die still holding to the lie the Watchtower has indoctrinated you in, god will replay these written conversations before casting you into teh lake of fire to suffer forever. I say that not to condemn you but to plead with you to accept Gods Word instead of teh Watchtower.

What lie sir? I believe I have asked this in the past and you were unable to come up with any. State anything you feel we fall short on, and I will be glad to give you the Scriptural reason on why we do it that way.

You just maligned God with being a torturous evil god in this post. God does not torture people in the lake of fire forever, in fact He chose to include the definition of it for people like you who reproach Him by stating openly the lake of fire is the SECOND DEATH. What part of that do you fail to understand sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I understand that you said you're a Jehovah's Witness, but what you said in post #1 the way you texted it, makes me think you're trying to say that the people back then may have thought it unreasonable to believe Jesus was the son of God, that it couldn't be true. Why, because the fact that Jesus was said to be a criminal apostate and that he was executed by the authorities as an criminal apostate. Then you tell me to put myself in their shoes and think what Robert, that it was reasonable that I too wouldn't believe he was God's son. Do you honestly believe it was reasonable for the majority of the Jews to believe that it was unreasonable for any Jew to believe that Jesus was the son of God for the reasons you texted in post #1. Because I don't. I think I would believe Jesus to be the son of God. Why, because of the things he did Robert. He healed everyone who came to him to be healed. He cleaned everyone that had a demonic spirit that was brought to him, and he raised the dead, one who had been dead for three days. I think that those things that Jesus did, should have been considered by the majority of Jews back then, but they really didn't. So what it's reasonable for those Jews to think it unreasonable to believe Jesus to be the son of God, in spite of the fact all those miracles he did. I don't think I would ever be able to ignore those powerful miracles that Jesus did and I wouldn't care what the majority of the Jews thought about Jesus because those miracles he did couldn't have been done unless he had God on his side. He certainly couldn't do those things if he were a demon, especially raising the dead. So if I put myself in the Jews shoes back then I think I would agree with the apostles that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God.

Interestingly in todays Watchtower lesson today the conductor stated as we were going through the congregations that if our congregation would have been there during the first century, we might have been among those who are lukewarm. I think he forgot that those congregations of Revelation basically represent ours today and in the future as it was written for those in the Lord's day, our period right now.

My exact point is, do not put too much faith in man so as to reject the Bible Barn. In Jesus' day the most of us rejected him because of our leaders, that is a historical fact, and we need to be careful to make sure of all things and hold fast to what is fine. We know what is required, and we know that not all those taking the lead are Christian, so like Jesus said of the leaders of his day, obey them, but not if what they tell you is in conflict with God's Word.

I would hope you are right that you would buck the elders of the faith, including the governing body and accept Jesus was the Messiah, and would have followed him. I said I seriously doubt I would have, but it is a very valuable lesson for us as our deliverance is so very near and it is dependent upon our obedience to the gospel of Christ 2 Thes 1:8

 

[ScottA]

Yes. Israel were looking for a Lion, and they got a Lamb, slain. People today think the Christ is still that Lamb... They won't be expecting a Lion.

I would even go one further and suggest that we considered just what "a Lion" actually would look like in the context of God being the Author and source of His coming. In other words, if we just think that Jesus' return is what Israel expected, which was a conquering king...we are likely to be equally wrong. Only, since their part was the size of one nation, and ours the size of many nations--what we should expect is undoubtedly on a much grander scale.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What lie sir? I believe I have asked this in the past and you were unable to come up with any. State anything you feel we fall short on, and I will be glad to give you the Scriptural reason on why we do it that way.

You just maligned God with being a torturous evil god in this post. God does not torture people in the lake of fire forever, in fact He chose to include the definition of it for people like you who reproach Him by stating openly the lake of fire is the SECOND DEATH. What part of that do you fail to understand sir.

I have given you many answerrs to the lies the watchtower has indoctrinated you in.

1. (most important) that Jesus did not rise physically from teh dead in the body He died in.
2. Only 144,000 can be born again when Jesus placed no such number.
3. YOu can lose your salvation
4. all the peripheral garbage about holidays and blood and holiday decorations.

They are keeping you from entering the kingdom and rejoice over that fact!

 

[ScottA]

It is actually your perception Scott, as well as mine. I gave you our understanding of what born again means, and since you disagree, would you be so kind as to give your take on what it means to be born again.

Indeed, our perceptions mean nothing unless they agree with God.

As for the definition of what being "born again" means, Jesus gave the definition:

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
​

"God is spirit" Jesus said, and therefore in addition to being born of flesh and blood, we must also be "born [again] of the spirit of God." Which, biblically is not just a change in our old self, but literally "a new creation". As Paul clarified, saying, "Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain."

Thus, in that moment when Jesus knocks on that inner door of our heart, and we open to Him, He comes into us--which is that new birth, which because it is the birth of the spirit of God in us, it is even said, not to be us, but that "it is now longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us." Which, retaining our faculties, makes us reborn of the spirit of God and One with Him. After which Paul elaborates the experience of "being alive and remaining" was experienced by him as "for me, to live is Christ"...literally to share, yes even to reign with Christ in resurrected life by the power of God until He gives up His last in you, just as He showed in His own body--for we are His body. "Over such the second death has no power."

 

[Nancy]

Would you like to discuss where all the denominations came from Maam?

Not especially brother, I know where the divisions come from ultimately. Thanks for the offer tho.

 

[Robert Gwin]

God is the Judge, not me. I just urge people to follow Him the best I can.

And anyways my comment was more speaking against the position that I see so commonly that “X denomination is damned” or”you must believe as I do or you are damned”.

Biblical good people obey God maam, when the Bible refers to a good heart, it is speaking about one of God's people. Those who choose not to gather at His house that was established in these last days, do not have good hearts Biblically speaking anyway. Many people do good things for various reasons, some really devote much to help others, yet they do not do it Jehovah's way, like those of Mat 7:21-23. God gave us the Bible, and He identifies His people and we are expected to go with them Jane Zech 8:23

 

[Robert Gwin]

yours came from somewhere lol, I guess no one was saved until the WTS came on the scene right ?

I mean they teach one cannot be saved unless you are in the organization.

The Watchtower Society was formed as a legal organization more recently and really has nothing to do with salvation Chris. Salvation is dependent upon Knowing Jehovah, Jesus, and obeying the regulations set forth in the Greek Scriptures, unless of course you are incapable. Jn 17:3; 1 Jn 5:3

Personally I do not think God unjust because He has requirements, do you sir? Have you ever in the history of mankind that man has not had rules to live by, especially since recorded history? The Bible teaches that all believe they are righteous Pro 21:2, so why would they believe that?

Let me ask you an honest question, do you believe that God would choose to save anyone who refuses to obey Him and serve another god Chris? If you were in His shoes, would you?

 

[Robert Gwin]

I would even go one further and suggest that we considered just what "a Lion" actually would look like in the context of God being the Author and source of His coming. In other words, if we just think that Jesus' return is what Israel expected, which was a conquering king...we are likely to be equally wrong. Only, since their part was the size of one nation, and ours the size of many nations--what we should expect is undoubtedly on a much grander scale.

Jesus will not be returning to Israel Scott, however he is King, even now as the signs he gave indicate he has already been seated on the throne. He is the King of God's Kingdom, not any earthly Kingdom, in fact, when he returns to establish the earthly part of the Kingdom, Israel and every other nation will be gone sir Dan 2:44; Rev 16:14-16

 

[Robert Gwin]

I have given you many answerrs to the lies the watchtower has indoctrinated you in.

1. (most important) that Jesus did not rise physically from teh dead in the body He died in.
2. Only 144,000 can be born again when Jesus placed no such number.
3. YOu can lose your salvation
4. all the peripheral garbage about holidays and blood and holiday decorations.

They are keeping you from entering the kingdom and rejoice over that fact!

I am fully willing to discuss each of those with you Ron. So lets take one at a time. You and I would agree I believe that Jesus gave his flesh and blood in sacrifice so that our relationship with God can be restored, correct? You and I will agree that all who gain salvation is through that sacrifice correct?
And we are both aware that he gave his life. So, with that being said, he gave his human life. Why? Because Adam, a perfect man lost life for all humans, Jesus a perfect man, an equal sacrifice satisfied God's law of soul for soul thereby restoring life for humans in the future. Adam lost his life, Jesus lost his life, God's son whom was sent from heaven did not lose his life Ron. Jesus returned to heaven in the form he was prior to coming to earth. All beings who reside in heaven are spirit beings, the Bible is quite clear on that sir.

The Bible point blank states Jesus was resurrected a spirit 1 Pet 3:18 and Paul when talking about the anointed solidified that fact 1 Cor 15:44-50.

No one is naive enough to believe that every intimate associate of Jesus would forget what he looked like in less than 3 days sir, yet not one individual recognized Jesus physically. Was he a physical person, he sure was, but certainly not in his body which he gave in our behalf. Why was he physical, because humans for the most part are incapable of seeing spirit beings. In every example of angels being sent to humans, all materialized in human bodies. They have the capability to do so as seen at Gen chap 6 when many of them took on human wives, forsaking their proper dwelling place.

The Bible tells us as well that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, but God's purpose was to fill the earth with humans, and His purpose will be fulfilled, so what was meant by that statement is the heavenly Kingdom of God, does that make sense? When Jesus returned to heaven, and all angels who were sent prior to him, they went back to their spirit form.

So you see sir, we promote Jesus as a spirit being as he was prior to coming to earth for the sacrifice, and the scriptural basis for it.

There is also another thing to consider, if Jesus came back in his original body, what was the sacrifice? Less than 3 days of death, to be exalted to the number 2 position in heaven? Since Adam lost his life eternally, and the corresponding ransom less than 3 days, where is the soul for soul redemption? It would be far from satisfying that law. I am just an ignorant country boy, but I am able to see that. God's laws are just, equal, and unchangeable sir.

I have reasoned with you, given you scriptural evidence, and most likely it will make no difference whatsoever, but either I am correct or not and only time will reveal the accuracy of what either of us say on the matter, so at least I have justified why those of my faith believe Jesus was resurrected a spirit being.

When we come to an agreement or an impasse on this I will move on to your next point.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Indeed, our perceptions mean nothing unless they agree with God.

As for the definition of what being "born again" means, Jesus gave the definition:

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
​

"God is spirit" Jesus said, and therefore in addition to being born of flesh and blood, we must also be "born [again] of the spirit of God." Which, biblically is not just a change in our old self, but literally "a new creation". As Paul clarified, saying, "Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain."

Thus, in that moment when Jesus knocks on that inner door of our heart, and we open to Him, He comes into us--which is that new birth, which because it is the birth of the spirit of God in us, it is even said, not to be us, but that "it is now longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us." Which, retaining our faculties, makes us reborn of the spirit of God and One with Him. After which Paul elaborates the experience of "being alive and remaining" was experienced by him as "for me, to live is Christ"...literally to share, yes even to reign with Christ in resurrected life by the power of God until He gives up His last in you, just as He showed in His own body--for we are His body. "Over such the second death has no power."

That is simply common sense Scott. I guess I will define it and you tell me if you agree with my definition.

A born again Christian is Christ's brothers, they are those Jesus made a covenant with on the last day of his earthly life, and would eventually be fully gathered and sealed by the time of his next return in which those alive will meet him in the air 1 Thes 4:17. They are part of the first resurrection Rev 20:6, and since the second death has no authority over them, then they have been given immortality. They will reside in heaven and are numbered 144,000 Rev 14:1-3 They have been anointed by holy spirit Rom 6:3-5; 1 Cor 12:13. They were selected from among mankind to be Kings and Priests with Jesus Rev 5:9,10 and are referred to as the Israel of God Gal 6:16

Do you agree this describes those that are born again sir?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Not especially brother, I know where the divisions come from ultimately. Thanks for the offer tho.

Ok, so you do recognize divisions as indicated by your answer. What scriptures of evidence can you present that proves God's acceptance of these divisions Maam?