If you found you were in the wrong faith, would you change?

[Jane_Doe22]

Biblical good people obey God maam, when the Bible refers to a good heart, it is speaking about one of God's people. Those who choose not to gather at His house that was established in these last days, do not have good hearts Biblically speaking anyway. Many people do good things for various reasons, some really devote much to help others, yet they do not do it Jehovah's way, like those of Mat 7:21-23. God gave us the Bible, and He identifies His people and we are expected to go with them Jane Zech 8:23

@Robert Gwin , I appreciated the self-honesty you displayed earlier. That's a big thing. I'll return honesty directly here.

I've studied dozens of different faiths, Christian and non. It's not because I'm searching for God (I got to scripture & prayer for that), but to better understand and love my neighbor. Almost always I come out having had a positive experience and gained new persecutive. The reason I have to say "almost" is because of my experience studying with JW. I acknowledge that you consider the Watchtower Society to be a discreet slave of Jehovah, but for me I see an extreme abuser whom routinely uses things such as death threats to control its members. Even your post I'm responding to her is such an example-- it's SO engrained. God is love, not death threats or shunning or avoiding "bad association". I've never been so repulsed by any faith, and it remains my single totally negative experience.

I acknowledge your right to believe as you do, regardless of what I think or find to be True. I acknowledge that there many indeed be people whom truly love God in those pews and do the best to follow Him-- and I celebrate that love and devotion. I celebrate your honesty. But to my investigation the Jehovah Witness faith is not that of the Bible and I give it a hard pass.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus will not be returning to Israel Scott, however he is King, even now as the signs he gave indicate he has already been seated on the throne. He is the King of God's Kingdom, not any earthly Kingdom, in fact, when he returns to establish the earthly part of the Kingdom, Israel and every other nation will be gone sir Dan 2:44; Rev 16:14-16

That's not really what I was saying or referring to. But rather that just as Israel got it all wrong about the first appearing of Messiah, we too are looking at His return all wrong as well.

Most have imagined visions of the flesh and blood man Jesus touching down on the mount of olives on a winged white horse with an actual sword in his hand to do battle on the plains of Megiddo...which, in that way they imagine, could not be more wrong.

 

[Nancy]

Ok, so you do recognize divisions as indicated by your answer. What scriptures of evidence can you present that proves God's acceptance of these divisions Maam?

My answer was pertaining to Satan and how he has divided Christians so very badly since day one. Manipulation, propaganda, false teachings, false doctrine, teachers on and on. It would take me forever to pick out all those specific verses Sir.
Satan kills our joy, steals our assurance and destroys folks faith if he cannot get them to false teachings. I am hip to Satan's wiles for the most part.

 

[ScottA]

That is simply common sense Scott. I guess I will define it and you tell me if you agree with my definition.

A born again Christian is Christ's brothers, they are those Jesus made a covenant with on the last day of his earthly life, and would eventually be fully gathered and sealed by the time of his next return in which those alive will meet him in the air 1 Thes 4:17. They are part of the first resurrection Rev 20:6, and since the second death has no authority over them, then they have been given immortality. They will reside in heaven and are numbered 144,000 Rev 14:1-3 They have been anointed by holy spirit Rom 6:3-5; 1 Cor 12:13. They were selected from among mankind to be Kings and Priests with Jesus Rev 5:9,10 and are referred to as the Israel of God Gal 6:16

Do you agree this describes those that are born again sir?

Well, the words are correct enough according to the scriptures...but lack complete spiritual discernment.

The 144,000 is not unlike the use of "a thousand years" in referring rather to "the fullness of time." In this case it means, the fullness of every tribe, Israel being the basis of foreshadowing. The commencement of which began at Pentecost, and proceeds from that time as Paul indicated, as "each one in his own order." Which is indeed the Israel of God, wherein is the new Jerusalem, the Israel of old, that city upon a hill.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am fully willing to discuss each of those with you Ron. So lets take one at a time. You and I would agree I believe that Jesus gave his flesh and blood in sacrifice so that our relationship with God can be restored, correct? You and I will agree that all who gain salvation is through that sacrifice correct?
And we are both aware that he gave his life. So, with that being said, he gave his human life. Why? Because Adam, a perfect man lost life for all humans, Jesus a perfect man, an equal sacrifice satisfied God's law of soul for soul thereby restoring life for humans in the future. Adam lost his life, Jesus lost his life, God's son whom was sent from heaven did not lose his life Ron. Jesus returned to heaven in the form he was prior to coming to earth. All beings who reside in heaven are spirit beings, the Bible is quite clear on that sir.

And you ignore the MEANNING OF TH EWORD RESURRECTION. YOU ALSO IGNORE THAT JESUS SAID HE HAD AUTHORITY TO LAY DOWN HIS LIFE AND TO TAKE IT BACK AGAIN!

yOU ALSO IGNORE THAT JESUS APPEARED IN HIS OWN BODY MANY TIMES AFTER HE STOOD UP AGAIN. SOMETHING HAS TO LIE DOWN TO STAND UP AGAIN.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No one is naive enough to believe that every intimate associate of Jesus would forget what he looked like in less than 3 days sir, yet not one individual recognized Jesus physically. Was he a physical person, he sure was, but certainly not in his body which he gave in our behalf. Why was he physical, because humans for the most part are incapable of seeing spirit beings. In every example of angels being sent to humans, all materialized in human bodies. They have the capability to do so as seen at Gen chap 6 when many of them took on human wives, forsaking their proper dwelling place.

aND YOU WILLINGLY IGNORE TEH WORDS OF sCRIPTURE WHERE IIT WAS SAID SOM EWERE KEPT FROM RECOGNIZING HIM, AND MARY THOUGHT IT WAS THE GARDENER BECAUSE SHE WAS THERE NOT TO SEE A RESURRECTED LORD BUT ANOINT THE BODY.

THE APOSTLES RECOGNIZED HIM WHEN HE WALKED THROUGH THE WALL. C'MON BOB, YOU ARE NOT THAT IGNORANT.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There is also another thing to consider, if Jesus came back in his original body, what was the sacrifice? Less than 3 days of death, to be exalted to the number 2 position in heaven? Since Adam lost his life eternally, and the corresponding ransom less than 3 days, where is the soul for soul redemption? It would be far from satisfying that law. I am just an ignorant country boy, but I am able to see that. God's laws are just, equal, and unchangeable sir.

As Scriptures say in numerous places- it is the blood that is for remission of sins. Jesus said He would lay His liofe down and take it back again!

Also in JOhn He said His body was flesh and bone, not the normal universal idion flesh and blood. Why? Because He poured His blood on teh mercy seat of heaven as the great High Priest.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have reasoned with you, given you scriptural evidence, and most likely it will make no difference whatsoever, but either I am correct or not and only time will reveal the accuracy of what either of us say on the matter, so at least I have justified why those of my faith believe Jesus was resurrected a spirit being.

When we come to an agreement or an impasse on this I will move on to your next point.

And the only way you can justofy that belief is by placing the reasonings of teh Watchtower as the definitions instead of teh normal usual definitions.

Once again, the Watchtower is guilty of this:

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And by defending and promu8lgating their lies- you are as guilty as C.T. Russell and all thatr came after him, of pushing this destructive lie.

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


Why don't you believe th esimple easy to understand Words of Jesus instead of teh twisted complicated lies of the Watchtower? Your eternity is hanging in the balance.

 

[Robert Gwin]

@Robert Gwin , I appreciated the self-honesty you displayed earlier. That's a big thing. I'll return honesty directly here.

I've studied dozens of different faiths, Christian and non. It's not because I'm searching for God (I got to scripture & prayer for that), but to better understand and love my neighbor. Almost always I come out having had a positive experience and gained new persecutive. The reason I have to say "almost" is because of my experience studying with JW. I acknowledge that you consider the Watchtower Society to be a discreet slave of Jehovah, but for me I see an extreme abuser whom routinely uses things such as death threats to control its members. Even your post I'm responding to her is such an example-- it's SO engrained. God is love, not death threats or shunning or avoiding "bad association". I've never been so repulsed by any faith, and it remains my single totally negative experience.

I acknowledge your right to believe as you do, regardless of what I think or find to be True. I acknowledge that there many indeed be people whom truly love God in those pews and do the best to follow Him-- and I celebrate that love and devotion. I celebrate your honesty. But to my investigation the Jehovah Witness faith is not that of the Bible and I give it a hard pass.

Thank you Jane for your honesty maam, it is truly appreciated. God expects people to be honest, and it is honest people who are drawn to Him. So let me ask you, and I assure you I am not angered, but always open for improvement, what did I say that spurned you to think that I was "engrained".

I believe that as an honest person, and speaking about God being love you are most likely a loving person as well, to what length would you go to save someone's life? So now comes the most important question, most likely you are familiar that majority of people on the planet will be destroyed when Jesus returns correct? Mat 7:13,14; 2 Thes 1:6-9. Jesus even compared it to the flood, and what was the biggest sin of those taken in the flood? They simply took no note until the flood came and swept them away Mat 24:38,39. You see maam, these are the last days and most believe Jesus could come at any time, now is the time to realize that Isa 2:2-4 is being fulfilled. Jehovah trains His people and expects them to walk in His paths maam. With your love and your honesty, and knowing what is really taking place, would you be willing to help others to come to know Jehovah, and be obedient to the laws set forth to Christians? I think you would. So if you would, no doubt you believe that God tells us what He expects of us in the Bible, so we need to discuss what He requires for salvation, and how to identify His people. The Bible does identify His people beyond any doubt Jane, in fact that scripture in Isa narrows it down considerably if you think about what it says. Which religious group of people on the earth worship and serve Jehovah exclusively and have beat their swords into plowshears? You have just narrowed it down to be able to count them on one hand.

But then again you may not believe that, so if that is the case I am willing to listen, do you have any Scriptural evidence that God accepts people from more than one faith?

Please do not consider me as rude, argumentative, or uncaring, as it is my goal to help others to know God and His requirements to get them on the road to life. I have accepted the assignment given to all Christians, disciples of Christ recorded for us at Mat 28:19,20. That too is an identifier Jane, which among those handful of faiths you have narrowed it down to actually go to the extent of going house to house and in public places with the Kingdom message Acts 20:20, and are willing to sit down with you regularly to teach you to observe all the things Jesus commanded? Consider honestly why we do that, remember we are people too, and virtually all of us have said we would never go door to door, frankly the thought scared me to death, but because of our love for God we are obedient 1 Jn 5:3 and because of our love of neighbor, even though we know that they may not treat us well, we want them to have the chance to come to know God and belong to Him.

With just a little study maam, you will see that there are requirements for salvation, Jesus stated very clearly that we must do the will of God, but you have to know what that will is Mat 7:21-23

 

[Robert Gwin]

That's not really what I was saying or referring to. But rather that just as Israel got it all wrong about the first appearing of Messiah, we too are looking at His return all wrong as well.

Most have imagined visions of the flesh and blood man Jesus touching down on the mount of olives on a winged white horse with an actual sword in his hand to do battle on the plains of Megiddo...which, in that way they imagine, could not be more wrong.

Aah! Thanks for clarifying that Scott, and I apologize for not understanding that. I agree, but I will say this, when he does return all people will know it, but sadly for most it will be too late as they choose not to take the warning that his disciples and he himself gave. People like in the days of the flood simply go on about their everyday lives taking no note. Mat 24:38,39. Now is the time to get on God's figurative ark of Salvation.

 

[Robert Gwin]

My answer was pertaining to Satan and how he has divided Christians so very badly since day one. Manipulation, propaganda, false teachings, false doctrine, teachers on and on. It would take me forever to pick out all those specific verses Sir.
Satan kills our joy, steals our assurance and destroys folks faith if he cannot get them to false teachings. I am hip to Satan's wiles for the most part.

Fantastic Nancy! You already know it was satan (and of course those who follow him) who caused division in the Christian faith. So then isn't it logical to assume that if one followed one of these false Christs that they would be judged as one of them maam? We have the prime example of Adam and Eve who left Jehovah, did he accept their newfound faith of being their own god?

And believe me, you would have to search hard to find the verses God gave us that shows His approval of those multiple faiths, as quite frankly none exist, that is why I knew you wouldn't be able to. But I am so happy that you recognize why they exist, that is no doubt the biggest step that could motivate one to search further to identify God's people. Knowing satan's ploys is fantastic as well, because this greatly helps you to identify a faith by their fruits.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well, the words are correct enough according to the scriptures...but lack complete spiritual discernment.

The 144,000 is not unlike the use of "a thousand years" in referring rather to "the fullness of time." In this case it means, the fullness of every tribe, Israel being the basis of foreshadowing. The commencement of which began at Pentecost, and proceeds from that time as Paul indicated, as "each one in his own order." Which is indeed the Israel of God, wherein is the new Jerusalem, the Israel of old, that city upon a hill.

Do you know why they were purchased from among mankind sir?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Thank you Jane for your honesty maam, it is truly appreciated. God expects people to be honest, and it is honest people who are drawn to Him. So let me ask you, and I assure you I am not angered, but always open for improvement, what did I say that spurned you to think that I was "engrained".

I believe that as an honest person, and speaking about God being love you are most likely a loving person as well, to what length would you go to save someone's life? So now comes the most important question, most likely you are familiar that majority of people on the planet will be destroyed when Jesus returns correct? Mat 7:13,14; 2 Thes 1:6-9. Jesus even compared it to the flood, and what was the biggest sin of those taken in the flood? They simply took no note until the flood came and swept them away Mat 24:38,39. You see maam, these are the last days and most believe Jesus could come at any time, now is the time to realize that Isa 2:2-4 is being fulfilled. Jehovah trains His people and expects them to walk in His paths maam. With your love and your honesty, and knowing what is really taking place, would you be willing to help others to come to know Jehovah, and be obedient to the laws set forth to Christians? I think you would. So if you would, no doubt you believe that God tells us what He expects of us in the Bible, so we need to discuss what He requires for salvation, and how to identify His people. The Bible does identify His people beyond any doubt Jane, in fact that scripture in Isa narrows it down considerably if you think about what it says. Which religious group of people on the earth worship and serve Jehovah exclusively and have beat their swords into plowshears? You have just narrowed it down to be able to count them on one hand.

But then again you may not believe that, so if that is the case I am willing to listen, do you have any Scriptural evidence that God accepts people from more than one faith?

Please do not consider me as rude, argumentative, or uncaring, as it is my goal to help others to know God and His requirements to get them on the road to life. I have accepted the assignment given to all Christians, disciples of Christ recorded for us at Mat 28:19,20. That too is an identifier Jane, which among those handful of faiths you have narrowed it down to actually go to the extent of going house to house and in public places with the Kingdom message Acts 20:20, and are willing to sit down with you regularly to teach you to observe all the things Jesus commanded? Consider honestly why we do that, remember we are people too, and virtually all of us have said we would never go door to door, frankly the thought scared me to death, but because of our love for God we are obedient 1 Jn 5:3 and because of our love of neighbor, even though we know that they may not treat us well, we want them to have the chance to come to know God and belong to Him.

With just a little study maam, you will see that there are requirements for salvation, Jesus stated very clearly that we must do the will of God, but you have to know what that will is Mat 7:21-23

I don’t think you’re being rude at all- in fact I totally acknowledge that your actions are motivated out of wanting to save me- the fear of my death. That’s very clear.

However, I believe that obedience to God should be done out of love, not fear. Obedience prompted by fear is product of an abusive relationship and bad fruit. Likewise with preaching and searching for truth: thaws should be motivated by love. Not death threats.

 

[Nancy]

Fantastic Nancy! You already know it was satan (and of course those who follow him) who caused division in the Christian faith. So then isn't it logical to assume that if one followed one of these false Christs that they would be judged as one of them maam? We have the prime example of Adam and Eve who left Jehovah, did he accept their newfound faith of being their own god?

And believe me, you would have to search hard to find the verses God gave us that shows His approval of those multiple faiths, as quite frankly none exist, that is why I knew you wouldn't be able to. But I am so happy that you recognize why they exist, that is no doubt the biggest step that could motivate one to search further to identify God's people. Knowing satan's ploys is fantastic as well, because this greatly helps you to identify a faith by their fruits.

Amen brother, the best book I have read by C.S. Lewis is Screwtape letters, I'm on my 3rd or 4th read of it now. Truly shows how Satan screws with us.
God be with you!

 

[Robert Gwin]

And you ignore the MEANNING OF TH EWORD RESURRECTION. YOU ALSO IGNORE THAT JESUS SAID HE HAD AUTHORITY TO LAY DOWN HIS LIFE AND TO TAKE IT BACK AGAIN!

yOU ALSO IGNORE THAT JESUS APPEARED IN HIS OWN BODY MANY TIMES AFTER HE STOOD UP AGAIN. SOMETHING HAS TO LIE DOWN TO STAND UP AGAIN.

Jesus did not appear in his own body ever sir, in fact likely not the same body he did appear in, because every single time he appeared not one of his intimate associates recognized him. And if the sacrifice was taken back, which never happened in our history before, what hope do we have?

Best believe Jesus did in fact give his flesh and blood in our behalf, I certainly do.

Resurrection literally means to stand up sir. Biblical resurrection means the dead that are in the grave are brought back to life. Believe it or not Ron.

 

[Robert Gwin]

aND YOU WILLINGLY IGNORE TEH WORDS OF sCRIPTURE WHERE IIT WAS SAID SOM EWERE KEPT FROM RECOGNIZING HIM, AND MARY THOUGHT IT WAS THE GARDENER BECAUSE SHE WAS THERE NOT TO SEE A RESURRECTED LORD BUT ANOINT THE BODY.

THE APOSTLES RECOGNIZED HIM WHEN HE WALKED THROUGH THE WALL. C'MON BOB, YOU ARE NOT THAT IGNORANT.

I disagree Ron, here is the account:
(John 20:19-29) . . .9 When it was late that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 20 After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again: “May you have peace. Just as the Father has sent me, I also am sending you.” 22 After saying this he blew on them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained.” 24 But Thomas, one of the Twelve, who was called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.” 26 Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said: “May you have peace.” 27 Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting but believe.” 28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe.”

Jesus gave them what they needed to recognize him and strengthen them.

 

[Robert Gwin]

As Scriptures say in numerous places- it is the blood that is for remission of sins. Jesus said He would lay His liofe down and take it back again!

Also in JOhn He said His body was flesh and bone, not the normal universal idion flesh and blood. Why? Because He poured His blood on teh mercy seat of heaven as the great High Priest.

Jesus did lay down his life sir, and he was resurrected, on this we agree. Where we disagree is you said he took back his flesh and blood, whereas I say he returned to the spirit being he was prior to coming to earth, that life was not sacrificed Ron. His human life, his flesh and blood was the corresponding ransom that redeemed what Adam lost.

 

[Robert Gwin]

And the only way you can justofy that belief is by placing the reasonings of teh Watchtower as the definitions instead of teh normal usual definitions.

Once again, the Watchtower is guilty of this:

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

And by defending and promu8lgating their lies- you are as guilty as C.T. Russell and all thatr came after him, of pushing this destructive lie.

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


Why don't you believe th esimple easy to understand Words of Jesus instead of teh twisted complicated lies of the Watchtower? Your eternity is hanging in the balance.

Why? Because the Bible does not contradict sir, only misinterpretations cause it to seem so. Since Jesus body was sacrificed, and your verse says it would be resurrected what was meant by that? The Bible has to harmonize, or it would basically nullify God right? Who could put trust in a God that contradicts Himself?

 

[ScottA]

Aah! Thanks for clarifying that Scott, and I apologize for not understanding that. I agree, but I will say this, when he does return all people will know it, but sadly for most it will be too late as they choose not to take the warning that his disciples and he himself gave. People like in the days of the flood simply go on about their everyday lives taking no note. Mat 24:38,39. Now is the time to get on God's figurative ark of Salvation.

Yes...and a little insight about "all people" knowing "when he returns": As an event of God rather than of men and of the world, it is a spiritual event, meaning "each one in his own order" but more importantly, by the terms of God and therefore, timeless. Meaning that each one leaves in his own order--some raised "to everlasting life, some to everlasting contempt", but all arrive together...where "every eye shall see."

 

[ScottA]

Do you know why they were purchased from among mankind sir?

Yes, to reign with Christ for the preaching of the gospel to every nation until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.