If you want to Choose to Reject the Rapture=Just stay here!

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Davy

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I have talked to God about this and said if any of my family, friends or loved ones are left behind and I was taken, then please let me stay to be a witness for Him to those left behind.

It's really not... a serious question, simply because our Lord Jesus told His faithful to wait for Him, and not allow any man to deceive us. He did not teach any such notion as 'left behind', so that is what makes it just a trick question by the devil himself speaking through the deceived.
 

Heart2Soul

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It's really not... a serious question, simply because our Lord Jesus told His faithful to wait for Him, and not allow any man to deceive us. He did not teach any such notion as 'left behind', so that is what makes it just a trick question by the devil himself speaking through the deceived.
I agree...I stopped believing rapture theory in 1990. I read scripture and the more I read the more I realized there is no pretrib rapture.
That prayer I mentioned was just before I got a revelation knowledge of His Word.
 
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Davy

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Apostle Paul made it simple. Christ is not coming to gather His Church until after the Antichrist is revealed sitting in a temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself to be God. Then after that Jesus will come and destroy that false one with the brightness of His coming, just as verse 8 does reveal as written. Therefore, the Church goes through... the great tribulation like God's Word shows.

2 Thess 2:1-8
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
KJV
 

justbyfaith

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I have considered that there may be more than one rapture...

For there appears to be a pre-trib rapture for the overcomers in Philadelphia. Revelation 3:10.

And also, Jesus exhorts us to pray that we ourselves will be caught up pre-trib in Luke 21:36.
 

Naomi25

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Jesus said himself, "he shall reward every man according to his works". While Paul said, "For by grace are ye saved through faith...Not of works". Now these are contradictions, do we as Christians call the Son of God a liar or do we call a simple man named Paul a liar?

Sadly,*Insert sarcasm* your conclusion here is untenable.
You are conflating salvation with rewards and that isn't supportable, either by scripture or logic.
When a person runs a race, they win by crossing the line first. That is the thing or event that 'wins' the race for them. The reward for it is often a medal, or money or acclaim.
Likewise, salvation, we are told, is when our souls are reunited to God, rescued from the dominion of darkness. And it is a race that is won for us by grace; by Christ's work alone. It is not us who crossed the finish line.
However, Paul tells us that while Christ imputes that victorious win to us, through grace, there are certain rewards coming to us if we walk in faith and righteousness. What might these be and how do we view them? These are things granted to us in heaven, or probably more accuately the new earth. The Parable of the Talents in Matt 25 is a good example; good and faithful servants of Christ will be granted rewards in the new age. Rewards that will likely involve stewardship over God's new creation. It is these things that we strive for in our Christian lives. To please our heavenly father and earn rewards that will satisfy us and glorify him.
However, there is absolutely nothing in scripture that tells us that these 'works' can earn us what grace freely gives. In fact the opposite is true. Paul tells us that should we attempt to earn salvation via works, we had better make sure ALL our works are 100% perfect, because those are the only works God will accept. That is WHY it had to be Christ and his work on the cross. That is why grace has to be free...because we can never earn it, our works are as filthy rags in his eyes. It's only 'in Christ' that his work becomes ours and we are saved.
That is the gospel and any other is preaching salvation by works and is a false one of heresy.
 

Naomi25

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There is a pre-tribulation rapture for those who are found worthy (overcomers in Philadelphia)...see Revelation 3:10.

If a person is in Christ Jesus, then they are found worthy. They are worthy because of Him, not because of themselves. That is the whole point of the gospel; of penal substitutionary atonement...we get the best of him, and he took the worst of us. When God looked at his Son on the cross, he saw us. When God looks at us now, he see his Son.
In that way, all who call on the name of Jesus, WILL be found worthy.
 
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justbyfaith

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If a person is in Christ Jesus, then they are found worthy. They are worthy because of Him, not because of themselves. That is the whole point of the gospel; of penal substitutionary atonement...we get the best of him, and he took the worst of us. When God looked at his Son on the cross, he saw us. When God looks at us now, he see his Son.
In that way, all who call on the name of Jesus, WILL be found worthy.
Of course, Jesus exhorts us to pray always that we will be found worthy...to escape those things that shall come upon the earth, and to stand before the Son of Man. Luke 21:36.
 

Giuliano

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That is why grace has to be free...because we can never earn it, our works are as filthy rags in his eyes.
Grace may be free, but let's not think we can take advantage.

If people have sins they haven't repented of, their "righteousness" is like a white robe with dirt on it. Such iniquities will carry them off the way a wind blows a leaf about.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Matthew 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
 
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justbyfaith

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If people have sins they haven't repented of, their "righteousness" is like a white robe with dirt on it.
This would indicate that total and complete surrender is necessary for salvation...

What are anyone's thoughts on this?
 

Naomi25

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Grace may be free, but let's not think we can take advantage.

If people have sins they haven't repented of, their "righteousness" is like a white robe with dirt on it. Such iniquities will carry them off the way a wind blows a leaf about.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Matthew 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Oh, I'm not touting sitting on our saved butts! Genuine regeneration leads one to want to grow, to produce fruit. It can be slow...frustratingly slow at times. But there is that want and need, within us, to put to death the old self and grow in the new. Because we recognize what was paid to purchase our freedom. It's a love and a gratitude as well as a new heart that propels us forward.
I think anyone who presumes upon grace in order to sin as they want needs to consider if they are, indeed, saved. They ought to love Christ more than that sin they are engaging in.
 
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Giuliano

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Oh, I'm not touting sitting on our saved butts! Genuine regeneration leads one to want to grow, to produce fruit. It can be slow...frustratingly slow at times. But there is that want and need, within us, to put to death the old self and grow in the new. Because we recognize what was paid to purchase our freedom. It's a love and a gratitude as well as a new heart that propels us forward.
I think anyone who presumes upon grace in order to sin as they want needs to consider if they are, indeed, saved. They ought to love Christ more than that sin they are engaging in.
Glad to hear you say so. Some people worry me. I had a sister with that attitude. A few years later, she had changed her mind; and I was so happy.
 
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Waiting on him

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Sadly,*Insert sarcasm* your conclusion here is untenable.
You are conflating salvation with rewards and that isn't supportable, either by scripture or logic.
When a person runs a race, they win by crossing the line first. That is the thing or event that 'wins' the race for them. The reward for it is often a medal, or money or acclaim.
Likewise, salvation, we are told, is when our souls are reunited to God, rescued from the dominion of darkness. And it is a race that is won for us by grace; by Christ's work alone. It is not us who crossed the finish line.
However, Paul tells us that while Christ imputes that victorious win to us, through grace, there are certain rewards coming to us if we walk in faith and righteousness. What might these be and how do we view them? These are things granted to us in heaven, or probably more accuately the new earth. The Parable of the Talents in Matt 25 is a good example; good and faithful servants of Christ will be granted rewards in the new age. Rewards that will likely involve stewardship over God's new creation. It is these things that we strive for in our Christian lives. To please our heavenly father and earn rewards that will satisfy us and glorify him.
However, there is absolutely nothing in scripture that tells us that these 'works' can earn us what grace freely gives. In fact the opposite is true. Paul tells us that should we attempt to earn salvation via works, we had better make sure ALL our works are 100% perfect, because those are the only works God will accept. That is WHY it had to be Christ and his work on the cross. That is why grace has to be free...because we can never earn it, our works are as filthy rags in his eyes. It's only 'in Christ' that his work becomes ours and we are saved.
That is the gospel and any other is preaching salvation by works and is a false one of heresy.
Interesting you use the talents in MATTHEW to illustrate our works in Christ. When the lord in the parable can’t possibly be him
The Parable of the Talents in Matt 25 is a good example; good and faithful servants of Christ will be granted rewards in the new age. Rewards that will likely involve stewardship over God's new creation. It is these things that we strive for in our Christian lives. To please our heavenly father and earn rewards that will satisfy us and glorify him.

The lord spoken of in the talents in Matthew can’t be Jesus
 

Naomi25

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Interesting you use the talents in MATTHEW to illustrate our works in Christ. When the lord in the parable can’t possibly be him

The lord spoken of in the talents in Matthew can’t be Jesus

I'd dearly love to know how you arrive at that conclusion.
The parable, in itself, can be related to Christ, indeed, I don't know who else you would relate it to or why. But if you must object, consider this: the parallels between this parable and the one told in Luke 19:12-27 are too many to convince anyone they are not meant to be the same parable. While told slightly differently, the key point of each 'servant' being given an 'amount' to use while their 'master' is away, and in each account two servants are faithful with what they have been given, while the last 'hides' it away for 'fear'.
And quite clearly in Luke's account, we can see that this IS Jesus.

He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. -Luke 19:12

But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. -Luke 19:14–15


And even coming back to Matthews passage, we see something that couldn't be claimed by anyother other than the Christ:

For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ -Matthew 25:29–30

He is weaving parable and reality together, painting a picture of what it is like now, and what will happen at his return...what he and only he has the right to proclaim, as the 'nobleman who received for himself a Kingdom'.
 
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Waiting on him

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I'd dearly love to know how you arrive at that conclusion.
The parable, in itself, can be related to Christ, indeed, I don't know who else you would relate it to or why. But if you must object, consider this: the parallels between this parable and the one told in Luke 19:12-27 are too many to convince anyone they are not meant to be the same parable. While told slightly differently, the key point of each 'servant' being given an 'amount' to use while their 'master' is away, and in each account two servants are faithful with what they have been given, while the last 'hides' it away for 'fear'.
And quite clearly in Luke's account, we can see that this IS Jesus.

He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. -Luke 19:12

But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. -Luke 19:14–15


And even coming back to Matthews passage, we see something that couldn't be claimed by anyother other than the Christ:

For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ -Matthew 25:29–30

He is weaving parable and reality together, painting a picture of what it is like now, and what will happen at his return...what he and only he has the right to proclaim, as the 'nobleman who received for himself a Kingdom'.
Sounds as if you have it all worked out,one of many problems I find with this being the Lord I know is would the Christ advise me to gain usury for what He’s given me

Deuteronomy 23:19 KJV
[19] Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:


Tecarta Bible
 

Giuliano

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Sounds as if you have it all worked out,one of many problems I find with this being the Lord I know is would the Christ advise me to gain usury for what He’s given me

Deuteronomy 23:19 KJV
[19] Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:


Tecarta Bible
Good question. . . .

I think there is a concealed message in that story about the salvation of Gentiles. The commandment in Deuteronomy forbids Jews lending money to other Jews at interest. They were allowed to lend at interest to other people.

It is okay to "take" from the powers of darkness if your intention is to help save them. Jesus' Jewish disciples would be allowed to "weaken" the power of pagan Gentiles by "lending money at interest."
 
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Waiting on him

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Good question. . . .

I think there is a concealed message in that story about the salvation of Gentiles. The commandment in Deuteronomy forbids Jews lending money to other Jews at interest. They were allowed to lend at interest to other people.

It is okay to "take" from the powers of darkness if your intention is to help save them. Jesus' Jewish disciples would be allowed to "weaken" the power of pagan Gentiles by "lending money at interest."
Wasn’t Jesus Jewish?
 

Waiting on him

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Good question. . . .

I think there is a concealed message in that story about the salvation of Gentiles. The commandment in Deuteronomy forbids Jews lending money to other Jews at interest. They were allowed to lend at interest to other people.

It is okay to "take" from the powers of darkness if your intention is to help save them. Jesus' Jewish disciples would be allowed to "weaken" the power of pagan Gentiles by "lending money at interest."
Need help understanding the scenario seems to be according to most that Jesus a Jewish man gives some money to some Jewish men the leaves them with the impression, I expect some interest on the money I gave you when I return, is this correct?
 

Waiting on him

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Need help understanding the scenario seems to be according to most that Jesus a Jewish man gives some money to some Jewish men the leaves them with the impression, I expect some interest on the money I gave you when I return, is this correct?

Then come the goats later in the chapter and say lord lord it’s me look what I’ve done in your name? And the sheep say when did we do these things?
 

Giuliano

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Wasn’t Jesus Jewish?
Yes, and of course so were all the disciples. I see Jesus as the master in that story who told one of his servants he should have gotten interest by lending to Gentiles.

In today's context, I think it still stands: The believer in Jesus should not be out to make a profit from his fellow Christians, either spiritually or materially. It is okay however to weaken the power of the Dark Side by taking from it. Sometimes that gets people in the darkness to agree with your terms -- the way Jacob got Esau to forfeit his birthright.
 
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Waiting on him

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Yes, and of course so were all the disciples. I see Jesus as the master in that story who told one of his servants he should have gotten interest by lending to Gentiles.

In today's context, I think it still stands: The believer in Jesus should not be out to make a profit from his fellow Christians, either spiritually or materially. It is okay however to weaken the power of the Dark Side by taking from it. Sometimes that gets people in the darkness to agree with your terms -- the way Jacob got Esau to forfeit his birthright.
And the Lord takes from those who have not and gives to those who have?