I'm Pretty Sure That Jesus Wasn't Talking About This

[Brakelite]

@Grailhunter not only do you have a grave misapprehension of God's character with regards His so called violent behavior, you also are now proposing that He is willing to transgress His own principles in order to advance His church.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, only in Rome and immediate areas. Christianity was thriving without Rome in either of it's forms, and in places neither could reach.

You need to check out were Christianity was...where the Roman Empire was not at the time.
No Christians on the North Pole.

Christ brought His own church into apostasy and spiritual adultery in order to survive? That's the best He could do? You forget that it was the persecutions that gave life to the church.

Persecutions brought life to the Church...of course no one now can imagine the horrors that lasted so long.
It is all am matter of opinion.

So Christ can bring pagan Rome into collaboration with His church in order to protect His church, but can't take His church, or grow His church in a place He has designated as a protectorate?

Not sure what you are referring to here...Christianity grew under the protection of the Roman Empire.

 

[Grailhunter]

@Grailhunter not only do you have a grave misapprehension of God's character with regards His so called violent behavior, you also are now proposing that He is willing to transgress His own principles in order to advance His church.

As I said before the Bible defines God Character...not you or I.
And most of my post was not a proposal....but rather Questions. Count the question marks...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When He was talking about letting people slap us and just stand there and take it, I don't think He meant for us literally to become punching bags,.. so if that's why you guys don't believe in self-defense then that's just crazy in my mind.

only read a few post on the first couple of pages so hopefully I understood what this thread is about. Read mentioned about Jesus whom in his mouth was no guile, but when reviled, he reviled not. When threatened, he threatened not. That I don’t get. If it would have been me they were spitting one, smiting, cursing, mocking in telling him to prove He is the chosen one by coming down off the cross and saving himself...I would have been defending myself and threatening “wait till my Father gets hold on you”. But He didn’t threaten but asked the Father instead to forgive them for they were blind in what they did to him. Even when they kept accusing him as saying he would tear down the temple and build “raise” up another ...he told them when you tear down this temple, I will Lift it up. When they mocked for Him to prove He is the chosen One...did He not prove it in: being cursed He cursed not, in being reviled He reviled not again, in being threatened He threatened not? That there was no guile in His mouth? We go on and on about Biden and Harris but I was reading an article the other day about the remains of two hundred some children found, their being of children taken from their parents and placed in schools ran by Christians who raped and beat them for speaking in their native tongue. Abused by so called Christians claiming the actions of rape and torture to be in the name of Jesus. Some ugly stuff being said to be done in His name when He said it pretty plain: if you hate your brother then you hate God, if you curse your brother then you curse God, if you hate then you walk in darkness still and not in the Light, that you walk not in Him. Realize that is a lot of opinion but I’ve been thinking a lot about what truly makes one partakers with adulterers if not the acting identical (kin) and behaving the exact same(kin), as the one we are accusing?

Psalm 50:18-20 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers. [19] Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit. [20] Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son.


Ephesians 5:5-8 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. [6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. [7] Be not ye therefore partakers with them. [8] For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

to me that says be partakers not of darkness but of light. What Light did He bring forth?

 

[Brakelite]

You need to check out were Christianity was...where the Roman Empire was not at the time.
No Christians on the North Pole.

Not sure what you are referring to here...Christianity grew under the protection of the Roman Empire.

It was the fall of the empire that gave rise to Catholicism. If pagan Rome protected anything, it was apostasy. "And the dragon (pagan Rome) that gave the beast (Papal Rome) its throne, its power and authority". Revelation 13.
Christianity had spread to throughout the empire it is true, well before the rise of the Papacy. It is also true that pagan Rome was opposed to this new religion which refused to bow down to the emperor and acknowledge him as their god. But despite this opposition, the church grew exponentially. but not only in the empire. In those early centuries the church became established in the east. From Assyria up to Afghanistan, across the old silk road as far as China, and as far south as Persia, India, and even to the Philippines. When the empire began to crumble in the 4th century, and Europe become over-run by Germanic tribes from the north, even these had accepted Christianity. When the Catholic church came to civil power in Rome in the 6th century, those Arian tribes were immediately marked as enemies of the state, and obliterated. (The 3 horns uprooted...Daniel 7)
You said no prophecy had foretold of those Papal persecutions. I disagree.
Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast (Pagan Rome), which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head,(ten Barbarian tribes) and of the other (Papacy) which came up, and before whom three fell (Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths); even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn (Papacy) made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him (Papacy) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Yet to be seen, but quickly coming to pass today).
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship (surrender to his authority) him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman (the church of God...Christians) fled into the wilderness, (everywhere other than that territory under the aegis of either pagan or later, Papal Rome).where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (Prophetic time...1260 years ...from 538 ad (the time Belisarius took Rome from the Ostrogoths and gave the bishop of Rome the freedom to execute civil authority...declare the death sentence upon heretics as granted him officially 5 years earlier by Justinian) to 1798 when General Berthier of Napoleon's Revolutionary army entered Rome and took the Pope captive ending that period of Papal civil authority).
That period refers directly to the church's escape from persecution and God's providence in protecting her.

This same period, is here referring to those persecutions from a different perspective, whereby the power to persecute is granted the gentiles for a particular period, during which time God's witnesses, the old and new testaments (witnesses) would be with-held from the people.
Revelation 10:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 ¶ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

We see it again here...in reference to papal power over the saints,
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

And again here in reference to Gods protection...
Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

[Grailhunter]

It was the fall of the empire that gave rise to Catholicism.

That would be incorrect.

Christianity had spread to throughout the empire it is true, well before the rise of the Papacy. It is also true that pagan Rome was opposed to this new religion which refused to bow down to the emperor and acknowledge him as their god. But despite this opposition, the church grew exponentially. but not only in the empire. In those early centuries the church became established in the east. From Assyria up to Afghanistan, across the old silk road as far as China, and as far south as Persia, India, and even to the Philippines. When the empire began to crumble in the 4th century, and Europe become over-run by Germanic tribes from the north, even these had accepted Christianity. When the Catholic church came to civil power in Rome in the 6th century, those Arian tribes were immediately marked as enemies of the state, and obliterated.

I think you have your own personal history going on here. But I will lend an ear. What you are saying is history...so I am looking for history. The first Christian church building in Assyria up to Afghanistan, across the old silk road as far as China, and as far south as Persia, India, and even to the Philippines. I have a sense of humor, just do not step on it.

We see it again here...in reference to papal power over the saints,

First off the Hebrew language does not have a word for saints...They lent New Testament words and definitions to the Old Testament.

Secondly, personal interpretations of Daniel and Revelation, there is no agreement. But then I respect those personal interpretations, but I do not get into debates about them.
What I am looking for is a prophecy that described the Messiah being killed and His church being persecuted for a long time.
This is not going to work...And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
This can mean so many things...
The Jews in the Old Testament understood the messiah to be a human warlord king...a warlord...not the Lord. They were not looking for him to establish a church. He would establish a kingdom that would stand forever and take down their adversaries. Not looking for him to die right away.

 

[April_Rose]

to me that says be partakers not of darkness but of light. What Light did He bring forth?

I don't know.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

only read a few post on the first couple of pages so hopefully I understood what this thread is about. Read mentioned about Jesus whom in his mouth was no guile, but when reviled, he reviled not. When threatened, he threatened not. That I don’t get. If it would have been me they were spitting one, smiting, cursing, mocking in telling him to prove He is the chosen one by coming down off the cross and saving himself...I would have been defending myself and threatening “wait till my Father gets hold on you”. But He didn’t threaten but asked the Father instead to forgive them for they were blind in what they did to him. Even when they kept accusing him as saying he would tear down the temple and build “raise” up another ...he told them when you tear down this temple, I will Lift it up. When they mocked for Him to prove He is the chosen One...did He not prove it in: being cursed He cursed not, in being reviled He reviled not again, in being threatened He threatened not? That there was no guile in His mouth? We go on and on about Biden and Harris but I was reading an article the other day about the remains of two hundred some children found, their being of children taken from their parents and placed in schools ran by Christians who raped and beat them for speaking in their native tongue. Abused by so called Christians claiming the actions of rape and torture to be in the name of Jesus. Some ugly stuff being said to be done in His name when He said it pretty plain: if you hate your brother then you hate God, if you curse your brother then you curse God, if you hate then you walk in darkness still and not in the Light, that you walk not in Him. Realize that is a lot of opinion but I’ve been thinking a lot about what truly makes one partakers with adulterers if not the acting identical (kin) and behaving the exact same(kin), as the one we are accusing?

Psalm 50:18-20 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers. [19] Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit. [20] Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son.


Ephesians 5:5-8 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. [6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. [7] Be not ye therefore partakers with them. [8] For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

to me that says be partakers not of darkness but of light. What Light did He bring forth?

The light of the truth. To walk in the light is to be truthful and honest, even if that honesty is to say, I'm nothing like my Lord, please forgive me, a sinner.

Walking in the light, walking in truth, is to be honest.

 

[DPMartin]

When He was talking about letting people slap us and just stand there and take it, I don't think He meant for us literally to become punching bags,.. so if that's why you guys don't believe in self-defense then that's just crazy in my mind.

you're ok there April_Rose

the problem is, and I've seen it on sites like this one many think its their sworn duty to be persecuted for the gospel message. so they will get on sites and start agitating others with Jesus this and Jesus that to those that have no real interest and express they have no real interest and the supposed messenger will still persist

basically creating their own drama.

and as far as God's people defending themselves physically, Israel is still God's people and they have no qualms about defending themselves.


but in the Christian context, if one should suffer for the name of Christ it will not be a circumstance of their own making.

like when Chairman Moa chased out the churches and suppressed religious expression. in our case that would be a form of persecution for belief, hence Christ. and the reason for "the other cheek" is simply to show the authority that feels threatened by your beliefs in Christ is of no threat to them and their own influences. hence trying to establish a peaceful coexistence of Christianity in the world until Jesus come.

the mission isn't to take over the world, its to find the faithful in the world.

 

[Grailhunter]

you're ok there April_Rose

the problem is, and I've seen it on sites like this one many think its their sworn duty to be persecuted for the gospel message. so they will get on sites and start agitating others with Jesus this and Jesus that to those that have no real interest and express they have no real interest and the supposed messenger will still persist

basically creating their own drama.

and as far as God's people defending themselves physically, Israel is still God's people and they have no qualms about defending themselves.


but in the Christian context, if one should suffer for the name of Christ it will not be a circumstance of their own making.

like when Chairman Moa chased out the churches and suppressed religious expression. in our case that would be a form of persecution for belief, hence Christ. and the reason for "the other cheek" is simply to show the authority that feels threatened by your beliefs in Christ is of no threat to them and their own influences. hence trying to establish a peaceful coexistence of Christianity in the world until Jesus come.

the mission isn't to take over the world, its to find the faithful in the world.

LOL

 

[amigo de christo]

Sometimes I think we are waiting for some massive deception to come when it is already here...

Oh its here all right . Growing larger than ever . And if we have any part of it we are in dire trouble .
The harlot is now calling all children home to her , all faiths and all other religoins . Branding it under the title
the all inclusive love unity we are one . Let no man , woman or child have any lott or part in this delusion .
It is gathering the world to be as one . She calls from on her high places
and says to the simple , come ye we are one , let us unify as one . But the children who do enter her
know not they have made a covenant with death and that all who do enter her chambers shall find the second death
at their end . Stand firm , cause many are now buying this lie . And we must stand on the one and only original gospel .

 

[quietthinker]

Sally?
As far as the charter of God, I think the Bible does a good job of defining that. Some cherry pick the good and some cherry pick the bad...You can not paint God what you want Him to be.
But pacifism....
Still the question is why? Why pacifism? The whole Old and New Testament was in a very volatile era.
Rome was about to snuff Christianity out.
Christ moved to bring Rome and the Christians together.
Was that a bad thing? Protestants are not going to believe that it was Christ that did that or believe it was a bad thing.
Pacifism, what was the plan? The Roman persecutions lasted 275 years...horrid period...generations of Christians lived under the threat of horror. Was it a punishment? No prophecies described that type of persecutions.
Was the plan to kill all the Christians and then with no Christians on earth, God could wipe everyone out and that would be the "end of time?" The concept of non-resistance...martyrdom...except what you get as the will of God. Is that possible? I don't think so.
Sure the Catholic Church was anything but pacifistic. We could spend weeks talking about the corruption and atrocities of the Catholic Church.
But then we are back to, if it was not an initiative of God to merge with the Romans...what was the alternative? The Romans would have wiped out the Christians, they had turned killing Christians into a sport.
And it is not like the Protestant came in and saved the day. They were anything but peaceful and they fractured the church into thousands of denominations.
Of course some subscribe to the "Church of ones" but this has little impact on the world and again you are back to millions of different beliefs that can lead others astray.
It does not matter if it was the ancient world or modern day, Pacifists cannot survive on their own. The have to live in a country that is willing to defend itself. If a country does not defend itself, it will be conquered by evil. The pacifists could live in an evil country, but they are back to living in a country that will defend its borders. Without defenders, pacifists are sheep in a world full of wolves.
The only way that pacifism would have worked for Christianity was if Christ would have returned within the first century.

You confuse non violence with pacifism. Redemption was not about being passive. Considering it as, in your words, powder puff football is a far cry from understanding the character of God.....and if it has slipped your awareness, it is the nature of the character of God that the whole universal conflict centres around.

 

[Grailhunter]

You confuse non violence with pacifism.

Not confused at all.
There is a difference between being loving and non combatant.
And being the the type that don't fist fight or join the Army.
And the guy that would say God Bless you after having his wife slapped down.

Redemption was not about being passive.

Redemption...the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil....has nothing to do with this topic...nor anything to do with powder puff football...LOL...I said that Armageddon would not be like powder puff football...because Christ is not non violent.
As far as understanding God's character...all you have to do is read the Bible.

and if it has slipped your awareness, it is the nature of the character of God that the whole universal conflict centres around.

Has this something to do with basketball? Like Harlem Globe Trotters.

 

[Grailhunter]

Ok, lets sum this up a little bit.

@April_Rose starts out this thread making the statement I'm Pretty Sure That Jesus Wasn't Talking About This…referring to verse that tells us not to resist evil and to turn the other cheek.

And then she says…

When He was talking about letting people slap us and just stand there and take it, I don't think He meant for us literally to become punching bags,.. so if that's why you guys don't believe in self-defense then that's just crazy in my mind.

Although I see her point, that is in fact how most of the Apostles and early Christians took it. No resistance and no defense and no violence. Now is that what Christ intended? That is where the debates start.

The topic is not simple. There are few beliefs that merge here…some continue to this day.

The belief of non-violence…the belief that nothing in this world matters…and because Christ suffered so much for us, some think He wants us to suffer too. Or some believe that we should suffer for Christ. And the belief you should die for Christianity if pressed to. And then all the beliefs in between.

Martyrdom…
This develops into a religious doctrine of its own. The belief that, if challenged, one should suffer or die for their beliefs….martyrdom.
Martyrdom had four categories….
1.Those that were captured and martyred.
2.Those that offered themselves up for martyrdom, actually called voluntary or spontaneous martyrs.
3.Those that gave up their faith under the threat of martyrdom, but later recanted
and desired to rejoin the faith…they were called lapses.
4.And those that gave up their faith under the threat of martyrdom and never returned.

Non resistance to evil...so this carries over...
So then if a thief beats you and wants what you have…you should not resist and hand over your belongings. If He kills your family, you should pray for them.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

1st Peter 2:20-21 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Why did Christ and the Apostles teach this? That is the question. Some say it is because nothing in this life matters. Our lives and the lives of our family does not matter, our property does not matter and suffering is the life of Christians. Even today, there are people that embrace suffering and there are those that feel that it brings some sort of satisfaction to Christ. Proves our Love and devotion? That is something that people can debate. But you cannot blame Fundamentalists for believing this, because this is, basically, what was taught in the biblical era and continued on until Christianity and the Romans merged.

Now the other question is; Why would Christ tell Christians to be non-violent when God has never been non- violent? Again this is a debatable question. But what is not debatable is that God is violent…He always was and always will be.

In post #102 I give a very small number of available scriptures to prove this. If you want more, I can post a lot more direct statements and actions to prove the truth.

Some people have reacted like I am insulting God. What I and the scriptures are only offending...is false beliefs. God is not insulted by the scriptures, God is not afraid of the scriptures…that is where truth is.

I see it so many times, people that come to the Bible to cherry pick scriptures to support what they believe. They do not read the Bible to learn…they are going there to try to superimpose their beliefs on the Bible. In this case some people have a concept of good, a concept of what is a Godly character defined in their heads, and they do not like that bubble popped. There are aspects of the 613 Mosaic Laws that completely shock them and put them in denial.

Number one, we cannot judge God, for one we do not know or understand “the Big Picture.” When God made the Mosaic Law regarding war and the acquisition of land, God was not sinning or doing wrong. And there were a lot of Laws and statements in the Old Testament that are not inline with Christian beliefs….that does not make them wrong.

Christ was not sinning when He took a rope referred to as a scourge and ran the money changers out of the Temple.

Christ was not sinning when he warned people of the punishment of hell.

In the future Christ will not be wrong or sinning when He takes out a large portions of the populace on earth during the events of Revelation.

Why do people think that violence is sinful or wrong? And why do they not want to accept that God is violent?

I have already explained this; Violence in itself is not wrong or sinful. That is determined by the purpose, reason, intent, or what caused the violence. God did not sin or do wrong when He caused the flood that killed most everyone. God did not sin or do wrong when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. God made a lot of gruesome threats in the Old Testament, but that was not God sinning. As God said…vengeance is mine...in the context that He would order Israelites to kill all that breath.

So facing the facts, is knowing the truth. Strange as it may seem, there are Christians that do not like truth. On this particular topic they create the character of God in their own mind and try to superimpose it on Christianity. It is a false and incorrect belief, but it is a religious freedom. You can have Christ playing “Tiptoe through the tulips” as far as I am concerned, that is your right.

So God is not non-violent…in fact He is rather violent when necessary. So what does that mean for us?
Should we be pacifists or not?
Does it mean that as a country we should not resist communism?
Does it mean that as individuals we should strive to be loving, kind, slow to anger, non confrontations?
Does it mean that it is a sin to defend yourself or your family…or even others?

Overall with Christianity…Catholics nor Protestants have demonstrated the belief of non-violence. There were several lengthy and serious wars between the Catholics and Protestants…so they fight! They serve as armed police and military.

Does that make it right? Should we not resist evil? Should we not defend ourselves?
This is a legitimate debate.

As far in our society…true pacifists exist in a parasitical social arrangement, they live in a society with various forms of security and protections….armed police, and military members die protecting them, but they do not take any responsibility themselves.

 

[Brakelite]

I think it's great, and important, that these questions are being asked.
I am a pacifist by nature. I have never, ever been a fighter as such. I'm 68 years old and have punched just two people in my life... One in defense of my wife. I simply do not get into situations, or exacerbate situations to such an extent where violence is seen as they only solution. Twice I have been punched by others. Both times by persons more experienced, more determined, bigger and more skilled in the art of fighting than I. The 'fight' for want of a better word, obviously went no further.
I do however firmly believe in defending your country against aggressors, and your family and home against intruders and attackers. I would never stand by and say "God bless you" while a group or an individual is raping my daughter. Of someone is robbing me, I'm in no position to do anything much about it. They can have my money. It's not a hill worth dying for.
The above however is a very different context to being abused, or assaulted because of ones faith. In such a situation I am convinced that we ought to take patiently whatever is dished out to us. I think we all, to a lesser or greater degree can go along with the above. And I'm willing to be convinced of another way or to be convinced of being wrong on this.
What I cannot be convinced of is...

God is violent…He always was

Yes. God can use violence in order to defend His people or accomplish His purposes. Whether He personally inflicts this violence is another debate, but certainly violence is a necessary evil in some circumstances. There have been wars even over disagreements on theology. The Hussites wars is a good example. Despite being greatly outnumbered, the Hussites withstood papal armies for years. What makes this different from religious persecution? It was largely political. There are nuances in such circumstances that are difficult to defend in a short post such as this... And I admit far more wiser minds than mine. But God has always been violent? No. This i am adamant is incorrect. The scriptures speak of the "final eradication" of sin and sinners which is destruction. Necessarily a violent event... But the scriptures add that it is a strange act to the nature of God. It is outside of His normal modis operandi so to speak. It's uncharacteristic. It is something He never intended, never desired, and deplores is necessity. God is love. To destroy those He loves will be painful, agonizing, heartbreaking. And He has done everything He can to avoid it. Even to inflict violence and grief upon Himself instead. Until the satanic rebellion in heaven, any violence in the entire creation was unknown and a foreign concept. And praise God, it shall be again... Once sin and sinners are no more.

 

[quietthinker]

I think it's great, and important, that these questions are being asked.
I am a pacifist by nature. I have never, ever been a fighter as such. I'm 68 years old and have punched just two people in my life... One in defense of my wife. I simply do not get into situations, or exacerbate situations to such an extent where violence is seen as they only solution. Twice I have been punched by others. Both times by persons more experienced, more determined, bigger and more skilled in the art of fighting than I. The 'fight' for want of a better word, obviously went no further.
I do however firmly believe in defending your country against aggressors, and your family and home against intruders and attackers. I would never stand by and say "God bless you" while a group or an individual is raping my daughter. Of someone is robbing me, I'm in no position to do anything much about it. They can have my money. It's not a hill worth dying for.
The above however is a very different context to being abused, or assaulted because of ones faith. In such a situation I am convinced that we ought to take patiently whatever is dished out to us. I think we all, to a lesser or greater degree can go along with the above. And I'm willing to be convinced of another way or to be convinced of being wrong on this.
What I cannot be convinced of is...

Yes. God can use violence in order to defend His people or accomplish His purposes. Whether He personally inflicts this violence is another debate, but certainly violence is a necessary evil in some circumstances. There have been wars even over disagreements on theology. The Hussites wars is a good example. Despite being greatly outnumbered, the Hussites withstood papal armies for years. What makes this different from religious persecution? It was largely political. There are nuances in such circumstances that are difficult to defend in a short post such as this... And I admit far more wiser minds than mine. But God has always been violent? No. This i am adamant is incorrect. The scriptures speak of the "final eradication" of sin and sinners which is destruction. Necessarily a violent event... But the scriptures add that it is a strange act to the nature of God. It is outside of His normal modis operandi so to speak. It's uncharacteristic. It is something He never intended, never desired, and deplores is necessity. God is love. To destroy those He loves will be painful, agonizing, heartbreaking. And He has done everything He can to avoid it. Even to inflict violence and grief upon Himself instead. Until the satanic rebellion in heaven, any violence in the entire creation was unknown and a foreign concept. And praise God, it shall be again... Once sin and sinners are no more.

I would revisit the idea that God will destroy sinners.....why, because it's inconsistent with his character. Sounds odd? considering there are so many passages which speak in those terms?....hmmmm, I suspect men will destroy themselves....how? maybe with the use of advanced nuclear weapons when they attack the New Jerusalem?

Something else to consider....why would he resurrect the wicked for the purpose of destroying them again....they are dead, why not leave them dead?.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s not of any practical help to me personally to talk about huge and theoretical things that have never happened to me. That might help others, but for me, in a practical way in my everyday situations, that’s what truly helps me.

So when I consider defending myself, it’s the little everyday situations. Like...when someone cuts me off in traffic or cuts a line in the grocery store. Or when a family member takes from me.

For instance, my situation is that I have no money or retirement saved, have no house of my own, had to lose a tooth because my Obamacare doesn’t pay for a root canal and I haven’t the $2000 or more to pay for it, and often have to figure out how to get enough food to last me for 2 or 3 weeks on like...50.00. I buy my clothing at thrift stores. So a week ago, my sister saw a t shirt I was wearing and wanted me to give it to her daughter and said she would love it because it said Outer Banks on it and her daughter loved a show called Outer Banks. Now, my sister has a home. Why would she ask for my shirt when she knows my financial situation?

Here’s another situation. I have a small shop. I found some rings at 4 or 5.00 each that I knew I could ask $30 apiece for. My mother asked for one, a friend asked for one, and someone else asked for one. They all know my situation, and the debt I went into to start my shop, so why would they do that?

I do a lot of restored and shabby chic furniture for sale in my shop. They want to have pieces Ive done for only what it cost me. Yet they have homes and retirement accounts and I don’t. Recently, my sisters oldest daughter bought a home. She and my mother came in and out of my shop for over a week and took whatever they wanted and kept saying they would keep track of what they owed me. They decorated an entire 2 story house with furniture, paintings, prints, mirrors, dishware, pillows, carpets and rugs, 3 tables, 2 nightstands, 13 chairs in total (except for beds and a couch, which I don’t sell) and a few weeks later gave me a $500 check. They decorated an entire house for $500. I was surprised to even get that. My cost for all they took was probably...2500’ish and what I had it all priced at was probably...9,000 or 10,000...I purposely didn’t keep track. And they’ve also decorated both of their own homes, though more slowly, and I only once received a $300 check, although I’m always promised money, it’s always forgotten.

Somehow, they feel I owe them all this, so I let them take what they want. And despite the constant bleed, God takes care of me. Probably half the Christians in here would call me a fool and probably half would say I do right to let them take and not defend my possessions from their looting. But I can see God has given me much more than I’ve allowed them to take from me, albeit not financially so much as...well, better than financially. And it is great rest to not be constantly defending myself and my possessions as I used to but instead letting God take care of and see to me.

 

[quietthinker]

It’s not of any practical help to me personally to talk about huge and theoretical things that have never happened to me. That might help others, but for me, in a practical way in my everyday situations, that’s what truly helps me.

So when I consider defending myself, it’s the little everyday situations. Like...when someone cuts me off in traffic or cuts a line in the grocery store. Or when a family member takes from me.

For instance, my situation is that I have no money or retirement saved, have no house of my own, had to lose a tooth because my Obamacare doesn’t pay for a root canal and I haven’t the $2000 or more to pay for it, and often have to figure out how to get enough food to last me for 2 or 3 weeks on like...50.00. I buy my clothing at thrift stores. So a week ago, my sister saw a t shirt I was wearing and wanted me to give it to her daughter and said she would love it because it said Outer Banks on it and her daughter loved a show called Outer Banks. Now, my sister has a home. Why would she ask for my shirt when she knows my financial situation?

Here’s another situation. I have a small shop. I found some rings at 4 or 5.00 each that I knew I could ask $30 apiece for. My mother asked for one, my sister asked for one and a friend asked for one. They all know my situation, and the debt I went into to start my shop, so why would they do that?

I do a lot of restored and shabby chic furniture for sale in my shop. They want to have pieces Ive done for only what it cost me. Yet they have homes and retirement accounts and I don’t. Recently, my sisters oldest daughter bought a home. She and my mother came in and out of my shop for over a week and took whatever they wanted and kept saying they would keep track of what they owed me. They decorated an entire 2 story house with furniture, paintings, prints, mirrors, dishware, pillows, carpets and rugs, 3 tables, 2 nightstands, 13 chairs in total (except for beds and a couch, which I don’t sell) and a few weeks later gave me a $500 check. They decorated an entire house for $500. I was surprised to even get that. My cost for all they took was probably...2500’ish and what I had it all priced at was probably...9,000 or 10,000...I purposely didn’t keep track. And they’ve also decorated both of their own homes, though more slowly, and I only once received a $300 check, although I’m always promised money, it’s always forgotten.

Somehow, they feel I owe them all this, so I let them take what they want. And despite the constant bleed, God takes care of me. Probably half the Christians in here would call me a fool and probably half would say I do right to let them take and not defend my possessions from their looting. But I can see God has given me much more than I’ve allowed them to take from me, albeit not financially so much as...well, better than financially. And it is great rest to not be constantly defending myself and my possessions as I used to but instead letting God take care of and see to me.

My heart is touched sbg

 

[Brakelite]

It’s not of any practical help to me personally to talk about huge and theoretical things that have never happened to me. That might help others, but for me, in a practical way in my everyday situations, that’s what truly helps me.

So when I consider defending myself, it’s the little everyday situations. Like...when someone cuts me off in traffic or cuts a line in the grocery store. Or when a family member takes from me.

For instance, my situation is that I have no money or retirement saved, have no house of my own, had to lose a tooth because my Obamacare doesn’t pay for a root canal and I haven’t the $2000 or more to pay for it, and often have to figure out how to get enough food to last me for 2 or 3 weeks on like...50.00. I buy my clothing at thrift stores. So a week ago, my sister saw a t shirt I was wearing and wanted me to give it to her daughter and said she would love it because it said Outer Banks on it and her daughter loved a show called Outer Banks. Now, my sister has a home. Why would she ask for my shirt when she knows my financial situation?

Here’s another situation. I have a small shop. I found some rings at 4 or 5.00 each that I knew I could ask $30 apiece for. My mother asked for one, my sister asked for one and a friend asked for one. They all know my situation, and the debt I went into to start my shop, so why would they do that?

I do a lot of restored and shabby chic furniture for sale in my shop. They want to have pieces Ive done for only what it cost me. Yet they have homes and retirement accounts and I don’t. Recently, my sisters oldest daughter bought a home. She and my mother came in and out of my shop for over a week and took whatever they wanted and kept saying they would keep track of what they owed me. They decorated an entire 2 story house with furniture, paintings, prints, mirrors, dishware, pillows, carpets and rugs, 3 tables, 2 nightstands, 13 chairs in total (except for beds and a couch, which I don’t sell) and a few weeks later gave me a $500 check. They decorated an entire house for $500. I was surprised to even get that. My cost for all they took was probably...2500’ish and what I had it all priced at was probably...9,000 or 10,000...I purposely didn’t keep track. And they’ve also decorated both of their own homes, though more slowly, and I only once received a $300 check, although I’m always promised money, it’s always forgotten.

Somehow, they feel I owe them all this, so I let them take what they want. And despite the constant bleed, God takes care of me. Probably half the Christians in here would call me a fool and probably half would say I do right to let them take and not defend my possessions from their looting. But I can see God has given me much more than I’ve allowed them to take from me, albeit not financially so much as...well, better than financially. And it is great rest to not be constantly defending myself and my possessions as I used to but instead letting God take care of and see to me.

My mind is going skew wiff right now. I'm not going to criticize you. Your patience is astonishing. And you are right. It's great to theorize but when the rubber meets the road... Will the wheels fall off???

 

[stunnedbygrace]

My mind is going skew wiff right now. I'm not going to criticize you. Your patience is astonishing. And you are right. It's great to theorize but when the rubber meets the road... Will the wheels fall off???

It depends on what or who you’re trusting in to take care of you.Since I know everything I have comes from God, I don’t look at any of my possessions as if they will take care of me and I do not fight or war when someone takes them. It was many years of constant struggle to begin to trust God that He knows what I need and will see to me. I went by what my eyes saw rather than what He had promised. I didn’t practice the obedience of trust. And it’s almost like...when I was almost there, when I’d almost gone full in, satan said, oh yeah, well, take her tooth and then she will go back to not trusting You and will fight for her possessions again. But he didn’t win. God has made my forehead very strong. He has trained my hands for war. The war is over my trust. Even if I lose every tooth in my head I will trust Him.