Imputation is based on the Old Testament

[Episkopos]

I'm not sure and am mentioning it just in case, but is it possible that different people here have different understandings of what imputed means? If so, it might be helpful to define what that word means.

It's amazing that words take on whatever meaning that supports a self-interest...as opposed to wanting to know the will of God. Where is the fear of the Lord?

To impute means to attribute.

if a baby is crying then the crying is imputed (attributed) to the child.

The heresy is in appropriating God's righteousness for oneself as a coverup for sin. No one could conjure a more damnable heresy. It is the great delusion that has spread among those who love the lie more than the truth.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm not sure and am mentioning it just in case, but is it possible that different people here have different understandings of what imputed means? If so, it might be helpful to define what that word means.

Hmm…I’m not sure. Mostly, I hear it described as Christ’s righteousness sort of…transferred to. But I don’t see that in the verses they use to get that.

4 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God?2 If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way.3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”[a]

4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

I see it as God just saying when a man begins to trust Him, that man has done what is right in Gods eyes.

And there is a verse that supports that - make no mistake, a righteous man does what is right.

 

[Episkopos]

make no mistake, a righteous man does what is right....

...but only God can justify!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

...but only God can justify!

To me, “just” means the same thing as righteous/having done right.
I think it’s okay, and actually a good thing, for a man to understand that God accepts a man who puts his trust in Him. It’s okay to know God has accepted your trust in Him as the good and right thing to do. It makes a man grateful. It makes him praise God and thank God.
Its good for a man to know that God justifies sinners who place their trust in Him.
To know this does not equal arrogance or lack of humility.

I think it actually makes the man look at any lack of trust he is given to see in himself with alarm.It’s a good thing to be alarmed at that.

 

[Lizbeth]

It's amazing that words take on whatever meaning that supports a self-interest...as opposed to wanting to know the will of God. Where is the fear of the Lord?

To impute means to attribute.

if a baby is crying then the crying is imputed (attributed) to the child.

The heresy is in appropriating God's righteousness for oneself as a coverup for sin. No one could conjure a more damnable heresy. It is the great delusion that has spread among those who love the lie more than the truth.

Ah, I think this is where some of the confusion is coming from, if I'm not mistaken. I think everyone isn't on the same page as to the definition of imputation. Maybe that does need to be ironed out then, the meaning of imputation and whether the Lord can impute something to us that is not really there (yet).

No we are not to use God's precious grace as a license to sin, that is for sure. He is not mocked. The bible is clear that there is no more sacrifice for sins if we keep on wilfully sinning.

 

[Episkopos]

Ah, I think this is where some of the confusion is coming from, if I'm not mistaken. I think everyone isn't on the same page as to the definition of imputation. Maybe that does need to be ironed out then, the meaning of imputation and whether the Lord can impute something to us that is not really there (yet).

No we are not to use God's precious grace as a license to sin, that is for sure. He is not mocked. The bible is clear that there is no more sacrifice for sins if we keep on wilfully sinning.

The imputation doctrine is based on covering sin...not destroying sin. Luther's position was that he was a terrible sinner....covered by grace. Like a fresh covering of snow that covers a dunghill. I have posted a poll that I think most reformation types will be too shy to post what they believe. Light exposes darkness.

 

[Lizbeth]

Hmm…I’m not sure. Mostly, I hear it described as Christ’s righteousness sort of…transferred to. But I don’t see that in the verses they use to get that.

4 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God?2 If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way.3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”[a]

4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

I see it as God just saying when a man begins to trust Him, that man has done what is right in Gods eyes.

And there is a verse that supports that - make no mistake, a righteous man does what is right.

ok sis, this is where I'm having trouble getting my head around things, and my aging brain is not helping matters, Lord help me. I might not be able to delve into this too much. We've been made the righteousness of Christ.....to my understanding that is what has been imputed to us. Even though most of us are not walking in that perfectly yet. It has been done in heaven....the Lord declares us to be the righteousness of Christ and in heaven this is the truth, even though the facts on earth don't always bear it out because we do not yet see it wholly manifested. All things have been put under His feet, even though we do not yet see it. In the meantime it is only being graciously imputed to us...through God's sheer mercy and grace in Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

ok sis, this is where I'm having trouble getting my head around things, and my aging brain is not helping matters, Lord help me. I might not be able to delve into this too much. We've been made the righteousness of Christ.....to my understanding that is what has been imputed to us. Even though most of us are not walking in that perfectly yet. It has been done in heaven....the Lord declares us to be the righteousness of Christ and in heaven this is the truth, even though the facts on earth don't always bear it out because we do not yet see it wholly manifested. All things have been put under His feet, even though we do not yet see it. In the meantime it is only being graciously imputed to us...through God's sheer mercy and grace in Christ.

Not so much. There are conditions to being made the righteousness of God. That condition for each believer is to be found IN Christ...as an individual.

So then IN Christ we are made the righteousness of God...to the world. Or...We have been made the righteousness of God IN Christ.

In todays church very very few can claim this. Bible verses are not meant to lay claim to willy nilly. In Paul's day the church had actual saints..with actual testimonies of victory over sin through abiding in resurrection life. Now, people claim things that are simply not borne out in truth.

The humility required for righteousness demands that we not make lofty claims that are not borne out by a living testimony.

If a person has become the righteousness of God to the world...that person walks WITHOUT sin.

The righteousness of men is as filthy rags...but not so the righteousness of God.

Being under grace individually means to walk as Jesus walked ...as we abide in Christ. Being under grace corporately means we are covered by brethren who walk at that level among us. If no one is pure as the Father is in the assembly then we should be careful what we claim regarding grace. Grace brings with it a HARDER judgment. If people understood that then they would not be so quick to make rash claims. To whom much is given (and much is claimed) MORE is required.

 

[Lizbeth]

The imputation doctrine is based on covering sin...not destroying sin. Luther's position was that he was a terrible sinner....covered by grace. Like a fresh covering of snow that covers a dunghill. I have posted a poll that I think most reformation types will be too shy to post what they believe. Light exposes darkness.

Still trying to 'percolate' here, but I think I might in the middle on some of these things. There is an aspect of covering that the bible talks about, but we are not to abuse it, since we are not to use our liberty as a "cloak for sin".

I believe the reformation was a healthy step in the right direction, but didn't go far enough to return to the simplicity of Christ. I've heard there were elements of anti-semitism too, which was so wrong.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

ok sis, this is where I'm having trouble getting my head around things, and my aging brain is not helping matters, Lord help me. I might not be able to delve into this too much. We've been made the righteousness of Christ.....to my understanding that is what has been imputed to us. Even though most of us are not walking in that perfectly yet. It has been done in heaven....the Lord declares us to be the righteousness of Christ and in heaven this is the truth, even though the facts on earth don't always bear it out because we do not yet see it wholly manifested. All things have been put under His feet, even though we do not yet see it. In the meantime it is only being graciously imputed to us...through God's sheer mercy and grace in Christ.

mmm…explain what it means to you to say, “I, Lizbeth, am the righteousness of Christ.
What does it actually MEAN to you when you think about it? I can’t begin to fathom it so I need to hear.

Im assuming you are thinking in your mind of this verse, right?
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (Don’t know why those italics inserted…).

I do like your direction with the idea of: we don’t see it yet. I think it’s the right direction to head, in mind. So if you don’t see it yet, and given many warnings about what one can be cut off for, and considering “so that we might become” rather than “I have become,” being the words, I think some carefulness and caution is in order.

 

[Episkopos]

Still trying to 'percolate' here, but I think I might in the middle on some of these things. There is an aspect of covering that the bible talks about, but we are not to abuse it, since we are not to use our liberty as a "cloak for sin".

I believe the reformation was a healthy step in the right direction, but didn't go far enough to return to the simplicity of Christ. I've heard there were elements of anti-semitism too, which was so wrong.

Luther was a mess...not a man of God. An anti_Semite. An authoritarian anti-Christian who consigned Anabaptists (real disciples) to be burned to death. Look at Hitler's diatribe against the Jews...burning their synagogues etc. All this stems from Luther.

I'm amazed that believers can't see Luther for who he really was. And his doctrines? Destroying the high calling of Christ in order to justify believers together with the outer man intact...uncrucified. that is another gospel...and one anathematized by Paul.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is an aspect of covering that the bible talks about

Yes. The covering of the blood on the doorposts so the destroying angel would pass over and spare them. But were they without sin, all those people? If they were without sin, they would not need a covering. We don’t read where any of them, being covered, then said, I am now the righteousness of God!

We now have Jesus’ blood, so don’t need any other and continued sacrifices, death after death after death to cover, we have the perfect sacrifice. And we have forgiveness. That is quite enough mercy that we do not NEED to make up any other stuff about what we are or have as we run our race of trust, hoping to, and racing in trust to, enter into the promise and grab what we have been grabbed FOR!

And if we truly do trust Him as we claim to, why would we claim what we haven’t seen yet or to be what we aren’t yet or to already have what we hope for or to have entered into something we haven’t yet…? What is the purpose of that? Is it to tie Gods hands…? To…make sure we have what we want without having to continue in trust until the end? Why would we want to do away with the requirement to continue trusting? Is it so we can love money and the world AND tie His hands against disobedience? I have never understood the purpose of drawing up some clever deal to cheat death when we already have the promise that if we just trust Him, we will live forever…I truly am asking if anyone knows what the purpose of that is!

 

[Lizbeth]

mmm…explain what it means to you to say, “I, Lizbeth, am the righteousness of Christ.
What does it actually MEAN to you when you think about it? I can’t begin to fathom it so I need to hear.

Im assuming you are thinking in your mind of this verse, right?
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (Don’t know why those italics inserted…).

I do like your direction with the idea of: we don’t see it yet. I think it’s the right direction to head, in mind. So if you don’t see it yet, and given many warnings about what one can be cut off for, and considering “so that we might become” rather than “I have become,” being the words, I think some carefulness and caution is in order.

2Co 5:19-21

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I believe it means a fundamental change has taken place in those who have received Christ and we are new creatures. What has been conceived in us is of the Holy Spirit. Christ being formed in us. Being saved is not just a one time event....we were saved, we are being saved and we will be saved at the Lord's return. There's a yes-but-not-yet to some of these things, and in the meantime we walk by faith not by sight. We need to believe like Abraham that God is able to perform what He promised. It's not that anyone is to go around making claims about ourselves or thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought, but it is that we are to believe by faith what God says in His word. Amazing to think about....amazing grace. I was amazed when I first noticed that verse. We need to believe God, because the word also says "as a man thinks, so is he".

 

[stunnedbygrace]

2Co 5:19-21

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I believe it means a fundamental change has taken place in those who have received Christ and we are new creatures. What has been conceived in us is of the Holy Spirit. Christ being formed in us. Being saved is not just a one time event....we were saved, we are being saved and we will be saved at the Lord's return. There's a yes-but-not-yet to some of these things, and in the meantime we walk by faith not by sight. We need to believe like Abraham that God is able to perform what He promised. It's not that anyone is to go around making claims about ourselves or thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought, but it is that we are to believe by faith what God says in His word. Amazing to think about....amazing grace. I was amazed when I first noticed that verse. We need to believe God, because the word also says "as a man thinks, so is he".

Okay. I see how you think about it. My mind can’t do it. I can’t think things about myself that I can clearly see are not so. I definitely can hope for promises and hope for things God has said will be or that He will do for me, but…I never could understand how some say things like, I am the righteousness of God, I am just as righteous as Jesus, I am completely holy, I am without sin because when God looks at me He doesn’t see me, He sees Jesus instead of seeing me and, in fact, I CANT sin, because that’s what it says.
I can’t do it. I can’t even try. I’m not able to do that with my brain. To me, it seems like…trying to positive thinking my way out of reality. Since I see everyone around me do this, even the unbelievers in my family, I know it exists to think this way. It may even be possible to tap into some latent and long lost power to make things be, just according to what you think, but…I don’t want anything to do with that and it…feels yucky to me. It actually feels unlawful to me.

I do agree there was a drastic and fundamental change that day I received the Holy Spirit. I could talk for hours about it, literally! I just can’t use my brain in a way that says “so that I might be made/so that I might become” means “I actually and currently am.”

It just now occurs to me that “as he thinks, so is he” means something completely different to me than it does to you. I see it with a totally different meaning than you. I think it means…you are whatever your heart does. whatever your heart is doing/thinking is the true you. If you murder and mutter in your heart, then you ARE a murderer, even if it does not proceed to the outside of your cup in the action of killing that is then visible to men.
I don’t see it as a verse about trusting God and believing His words.

 

[Episkopos]

2Co 5:19-21

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I believe it means a fundamental change has taken place in those who have received Christ and we are new creatures. What has been conceived in us is of the Holy Spirit. Christ being formed in us. Being saved is not just a one time event....we were saved, we are being saved and we will be saved at the Lord's return. There's a yes-but-not-yet to some of these things, and in the meantime we walk by faith not by sight. We need to believe like Abraham that God is able to perform what He promised. It's not that anyone is to go around making claims about ourselves or thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought, but it is that we are to believe by faith what God says in His word. Amazing to think about....amazing grace. I was amazed when I first noticed that verse. We need to believe God, because the word also says "as a man thinks, so is he".

Yes. Grace also works over time...a time of grace. What will we do with the time we are given AFTER we have been enlightened. And that varies greatly from person to person.

We are to judge nothing before the time. But we are to at least try to correct those who are obviously getting it wrong...for their sake.

I think your concern is covered by the patience and mercy of God. A righteous person will continue to advance in the ways of God. An unrighteous person will twist grace into something that excuses the outer man...never learning the fear of the Lord and thus engage in foolishness.

Some people will do nothing more..refusing to seek and bring forth any fruit by thinking they are as rich in their present state as they will ever be, thus burying the gift they have been given. Some will allow the cares of this world to dominate their faith to the point where they can't be counted on as more than observers.

Again, we can be sinful and still be led by the Spirit. We can follow Christ from various distances. Only God can judge the outcome. Only God can justify a person based on their situation.

So what is this time of grace doing to our character? Are we becoming more patient, kind and loving? Or are we devolving into religious presumptions and idolatry?

 

[Lizbeth]

Luther was a mess...not a man of God. An anti_Semite. An authoritarian anti-Christian who consigned Anabaptists (real disciples) to be burned to death. Look at Hitler's diatribe against the Jews...burning their synagogues etc. All this stems from Luther.

I'm amazed that believers can't see Luther for who he really was. And his doctrines? Destroying the high calling of Christ in order to justify believers together with the outer man intact...uncrucified. that is another gospel...and one anathematized by Paul.

I don't know much about Luther or other reformers. I understood that the reformation freed souls from the grip of the Roman institution in order to receive Christ for themselves. Which was a good thing in itself. I only had heard about Luther's horrible anti-semitism in recent years, but didn't know he was persecuting Anabaptists too.

I believe scripture says we have been crucified with Christ, but that we need to apprehend and learn to walk in what the Cross has already really accomplished. I seem to see a "growth" aspect of these things.....faith growing like the mustard seed.

 

[Lizbeth]

Okay. I see how you think about it. My mind can’t do it. I can’t think things about myself that I can clearly see are not so. I definitely can hope for promises and hope for things God has said will be or that He will do for me, but…I never could understand how some say things like, I am the righteousness of God, I am just as righteous as Jesus, I am completely holy, I am without sin because when God looks at me He doesn’t see me, He sees Jesus instead of seeing me and, in fact, I CANT sin, because that’s what it says.
I can’t do it. I can’t even try. I’m not able to do that with my brain. To me, it seems like…positive thinking my way out of reality. Since I see everyone around me do this, even the unbelievers in my family, I know it exists to think this way. It may even be possible to tap into some latent and long lost power to make things be, just according to what you think, but…I don’t want anything to do with that and it…feels yucky to me. It actually feels unlawful to me.

I do agree there was a drastic and fundamental change that day I received the Holy Spirit. I could talk for hours about it, literally! I just can’t use my brain in a way that says “so that I might be made/so that I might become” means “I actually and currently am.”

It just now occurs to me that “as he thinks, so is he” means something completely different to me than it does to you. I see it with a totally different meaning than you. I think it means…you are whatever your heart does. whatever your heart is doing/thinking is the true you. If you murder and mutter in your heart, then you ARE a murderer, even if it does not proceed to the outside of your cup in the action of killing that is then visible to men.
I don’t see it as a verse about trusting God and believing His words.

Goodness sister, I don't know what on earth you're ascribing to me there. Yikes.

The truth of God trumps the facts that are on the ground. He is the King....what He says goes. When He ordains or decrees a thing, that is the truth. It needs to be by genuine FAITH, not by sight, and certainly not by "the power of positive thinking" or "name it and claim it" either.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't know much about Luther or other reformers. I understood that the reformation freed souls from the grip of the Roman institution in order to receive Christ for themselves. Which was a good thing in itself. I only had heard about Luther's horrible anti-semitism in recent years, but didn't know he was persecuting Anabaptists too.

I believe scripture says we have been crucified with Christ, but that we need to apprehend and learn to walk in what the Cross has already really accomplished. I seem to see a "growth" aspect of these things.....faith growing like the mustard seed.

The Reformation did one thing right and 2 things wrong. It allows for more personal advancement, but at the cost of many who will become their own "pope" and decide what truth is for themselves. Private interpretations have divided the church so that, in reality, a saint has as much struggle in one institution as the other. The Catholics get the Body right to some degree. The Protestants throw out the corporate unity for an individual pursuit that very few will be successful at. Jesus says that EVEN in the church of Sardis (reformation) there a few notables who are worthy.

Being crucified with Christ individually? Scripture says that Paul experienced this and that that is also available to us. The weaning aspect comes from bearing our OWN cross. I think you are looking at that. The more we bear our own cross the more we learn and grow in character. And this is necessary. We are to bear our outer man ...not live from there.

But being crucified has nothing to do with bearing our cross. The cross of Christ doesn't work like our cross. His cross kills us...instantly. Being dead means there is NO more effort of any kind except to remain submitted and surrendered to God. His burden in light.

Through the power of the cross we are liberated from the outer man so that the inner man can be TRANSLATED to live in His presence and power. Paul gloried in the cross because of this power to connect us intimately to a walk IN Christ...in HIS resurrection life.

Paul sought to WIN the approval of God into that level of walk. That approval comes when we count ALL things as dung in this world. We are accepted into the Beloved as we make the grade. We have to seek with ALL our heart to get noticed on that level. The eyes of the Lord are looking over the Earth to see if any understand His ways.

 

[Lizbeth]

The imputation doctrine is based on covering sin...not destroying sin. Luther's position was that he was a terrible sinner....covered by grace. Like a fresh covering of snow that covers a dunghill. I have posted a poll that I think most reformation types will be too shy to post what they believe. Light exposes darkness.

I can't speak for Luther, as I don't know what he believed or how he meant it. I'd say a dunghill resides in all our flesh, or that our flesh is a dunghill, but that is why we are not to walk after it, rather repent and walk after the spirit instead, obeying the Lord (which is a growing, learning and deepening walk). And if anyone inadvertently errs at any time they need to repent of it.

I don't know what you mean by reformation types, brother...never heard that before. To my limited understanding of the reformation, there were some good things about it and some not good. Overall, I thought they had "freed" the gospel from the Roman Catholic church, but then afterward I guess it still needed to be freed from themselves. There was and is still a need to return to the simplicity of Christ. There is actually only one church of Jesus Christ, but each church seems to wrongly see themselves as a church unto themselves.

The bible certainly does speak of our sins being covered...I think there are two sides to some things though and those who only take one side or the other are often arguing at cross purposes.

 

[Episkopos]

I can't speak for Luther, as I don't know what he believed or how he meant it. I'd say a dunghill resides in all our flesh, or that our flesh is a dunghill, but that is why we are not to walk after it, rather repent and walk after the spirit instead, obeying the Lord (which is a growing, learning and deepening walk). And if anyone inadvertently errs at any time they need to repent of it.

I don't know what you mean by reformation types, brother...never heard that before. To my limited understanding of the reformation, there were some good things about it and some not good. Overall, I thought they had "freed" the gospel from the Roman Catholic church, but then afterward I guess it still needed to be freed from themselves. There was and is still a need to return to the simplicity of Christ. There is actually only one church of Jesus Christ, but each church seems to wrongly see themselves as a church unto themselves.

The bible certainly does speak of our sins being covered...I think there are two sides to some things though and those who only take one side or the other are often arguing at cross purposes.

What I see as non-Biblical is a cover-up of sin...not just a cover over sin. We cover each other's sins by appealing to the inner man. We look beyond the outer man INTO the depths of the soul in a person. It is the outer man that wants his sins covered-up...so he can continue to run the show.

So then a covering is for the inner man. A cover-up for the outer man.

Luther sought a cover-up for sins...OVER the outer man. (not just the inner man) Luther sought a salvation over man as he is...imputing something on him that is not true nor will ever be true. The outer man is to be crucified and be weaned from...not glorified.