In Bed at the Appearing

[Davy]

If anyone makes a specific date prediction it will sure enough fail. Which happens too many times. Here we have a group that predicted the rapture date as May 1, 2011.

And with that I totally agree. I am not setting dates.

But 'watching' the Signs Jesus gave us leading up to His future coming is NOT date setting. Also, He commanded... us to 'watch', and it's those Signs He gave that He was talking about watching. The Signs I speak of specifically are the Signs He gave in His Olivet discourse (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21). And those Signs are the Seals of Revelation 6 and involve the 7 Trumpets, and the 7 Vials.

Furthermore, Apostle Paul's description about the so-called 'rapture' (he called it being "caught up"), in the 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter, Jesus covered that first in His Olivet discourse. In the Matthew 24:31 version, it's about Paul's resurrected saints being gathered by the angels to Christ. And in the Mark 13:27 version, it's about the saints still alive on earth being 'caught up'. And per both examples, Jesus showed that will happen AFTER the tribulation of those days.

So those who follow men's pre-trib rapture theory which Jesus did not teach, why won't they listen directly to what Lord Jesus said? What does it take to get those to listen directly to Him in His Word as written?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Your mistake is in thinking there is only one Day of the Lord.
Revelation 6:12-17 describes the great and terrible Day the Lord will change the world.
Revelation 19:11-21 describes the glorious Day the Jesus will Return, destroy His remaining enemies and commence His Millennium reign.

You use of 1 Thess 5:2, to support your wrong beliefs, is a total fail as it goes on to say how the Lord will send sudden destruction; upon the attackers of Israel, as Prophesied in Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Jeremiah 40:34-37,+
NOT referring to the Return at all!

Daniel 12:10 says that it will be only very close to the end times, will anyone finally understand what God has planned.
Newton was not and he also could not know the Prophetic truths, being as he was: wise and learned. Matthew 11:25-26

Day of the Lord

Day-singular
Lord-singular

 

[shilohsfoal]

When we had a plating department in our facility I worked under a chemist. This chemist was very smart and very good at math. When he laid out equations he did so in very neat handwriting and there would be much activity as he turned the results of an analysis into an addition. I would take his calculations and put them in the form of visual basic functions and sub procedures.

Of all the years I worked with this man I had one opportunity to witness to him. I made my presentation while he was analyzing adhesion under a microscope in which you could hear the sounds... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! After my presentation he just continued to look under the microscope as if he ignored everything I said so I just continued in my work. Then... The scratch scratch, scratching stopped! And he speaks!

"You know what I think it is?" He says while continuing to look under the microscope... "I think it is arrogance!"

And then, without taking his eyes off the microscope, he continues his work... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! I did not reply but went about my work. Inside I feared he was right. In many cases religion can inhabit too much personal ego.

And... So can prophecy. People think because they have done all this study that they have come to a point of arrival and all must bow the knee to their thinking. When in reality... The most of it is simply pure ego.

Nice parable.

 

[Timtofly]

No ,its not an SDA story ,it's a Daniel story.
There are 1290 days from the time the daily sacrifice it abolished to the day the abomination of desolation is placed.

Daniel 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Where did you get SDA out of that verse?

This time frame was already fulfilled when Antiochus Epiphanes set up the abomination of desolation. This is the time of Hanukkah the Jews have celebrated ever since.

There is no repeat of Hanukkah in the future. There is a warning to flee when Satan sets up his Babylonian empire in Jerusalem.

 

[shilohsfoal]

This time frame was already fulfilled when Antiochus Epiphanes set up the abomination of desolation. This is the time of Hanukkah the Jews have celebrated ever since.

There is no repeat of Hanukkah in the future. There is a warning to flee when Satan sets up his Babylonian empire in Jerusalem.

That is what the pharisees have led many to believe but that's not what Christ taught.
My advise to you is, believe Christ and not the pharisees.

Mathew 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 

[Timtofly]

So just to be clear on the 'order' of events per God's Word...

1. the placing of the IDOL abomination in a rebuilt stone temple built by the Jews, kicks off the time of "great tribulation" Lord Jesus forewarned of. The first part of the Dan.9 "one week", a period of 1260 days, has already been completed by this point of this idol abomination being setup in a temple in Jerusalem. The placing of this abomination in the new temple in Jerusalem represents the start of the latter 1260 day period of Daniel's "one week."
2. Jesus said for those of His in Jerusalem to get out of Judea when they see that "abomination of desolation" idol in the temple at Jerusalem. He also said for those of His in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem in that time.
3. During this time of "great tribulation", the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem will exalt himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped. That means he will sit over ALL religions upon earth. Jesus proclaimed him attempting to pass himself off as The Christ, that he would work great signs and wonders so deceptive, that it would, IF it were possible, deceive even His own very elect.
4. God's two witnesses will appear in Jerusalem and prophesy against the beast for 1260 days. The Gentiles will tread the holy city for 42 months. Both periods represent the "time, times, and an half" of the Book of Daniel for when God's servants will be persecuted prior to Christ's future return.
5. Then after the 1260 days, God's two witnesses are to be killed in Jerusalem by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan, the 'dragon'). Their bodies will be left unburied. Then 3.5 days later, they rise.
6. Next event is Christ's coming on the 7th Trumpet. This will end the 1260 days time of "great tribulation".
7. Then 30 days after the "great tribulation" of 1260 days, the 1290 period will take place.
8. Then 45 days after the 1290 days, the 1335 day period will take place, and those who come to it are blessed.

None of this fits into Revelation 10 through Revelation 19.

All these time periods happened back in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes. They are about the winter celebration of Hanukkah.

What John sees has nothing to do with 1290 days, nor 1335 days.

The 1260 days and 42 months are all the same time period. The 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead is when the 7 vials are poured out on Satan's Babylonian empire. Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming.

Revelation 19 happens only if Satan is allowed 42 months. They don't co-reign from Jerusalem. Jesus leaves for 42 months and then returns to take back earth from Satan.

 

[ScottA]

People think because they have done all this study that they have come to a point of arrival and all must bow the knee to their thinking. When in reality... The most of it is simply pure ego.

This is true.

And yet it is also true that among the countless egos down through all the ages, God has chosen a small number who would rather go hide themselves from the crowds, whose egos are not large enough to be let out in public, whom He has appointed to speak, not what they think, not their own words, but His.

 

[Timtofly]

So those who follow men's pre-trib rapture theory which Jesus did not teach.

Jesus did not teach a post trib rapture either.

The only sign of the Second Coming is Jesus in the sky. That is the only warning we get. There is no countdown after a certain event for the rapture.

The only other sign is the blooming of the fig tree. That is the parable of Israel becoming a nation. The generation who is alive when Israel becomes a nation will not all pass away, before the Second Coming, the GT (for Israel only), and Satan's 42 months. There will be some, a few, or just one who will witness all 4 events. That is the claim of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.

Trying to do a day to day narrative will not work. No one knows the timing, except the last 42 months. John gave us the most detail of those last 42 months. Claiming to know more than John is futile.

 

[Davy]

Jesus did not teach a post trib rapture either.

Yeah He did. Why would you LIE against the Scriptures of what Lord Jesus Himself said?

Christ's post-trib coming is specifically written in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 where He showed His future coming and gathering of the saints is AFTER the tribulation of those days. That is impossible to miss.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

 

[rockytopva]

Jesus did not teach a post trib rapture either.

The only sign of the Second Coming is Jesus in the sky. That is the only warning we get. There is no countdown after a certain event for the rapture.

The only other sign is the blooming of the fig tree. That is the parable of Israel becoming a nation. The generation who is alive when Israel becomes a nation will not all pass away, before the Second Coming, the GT (for Israel only), and Satan's 42 months. There will be some, a few, or just one who will witness all 4 events. That is the claim of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.

Trying to do a day to day narrative will not work. No one knows the timing, except the last 42 months. John gave us the most detail of those last 42 months. Claiming to know more than John is futile.

That would be rather a quick trip post-trib...

1. To meet the Lord Jesus in the sky
2. To return with him to reign a thousand years!

 

[Keraz]

That would be rather a quick trip post-trib...

1. To meet the Lord Jesus in the sky
2. To return with him to reign a thousand years!

That trip Prophesied by Paul in 1 Thess 4:17, is just a horizontal transportation. From where His faithful Christian peoples are when He Returns to where He is going; Jerusalem.

Scratch, scratch - BOOM. The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, triggered by the Islamic attack on Israel.

 

[Timtofly]

That is what the pharisees have led many to believe but that's not what Christ taught.
My advise to you is, believe Christ and not the pharisees.

Mathew 24

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Yes, what Daniel wrote was fulfilled. Greece was the 3rd kingdom. Do you think the Pharisees taught that Greece was the 3rd kingdom? You sidestepped the point by introducing the Pharisees as a non point to my post. How many Pharisees lived in or around Jerusalem when Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled Daniel?

When what John saw in Revelation 13 happens, that is when those in Jerusalem need to flee. Do you not associate Revelation 13 with when Satan sets up the AoD, and is allowed to sit on the throne of Jesus in the temple in Jerusalem? That is when Jerusalem is made the harlot of all religious aspects of those humans left on earth. Jerusalem is not destroyed during this time, just the religions of man are translated into Satan worship.

 

[Timtofly]

Yeah He did. Why would you LIE against the Scriptures of what Lord Jesus Himself said?

Christ's post-trib coming is specifically written in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 where He showed His future coming and gathering of the saints is AFTER the tribulation of those days. That is impossible to miss.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

The tribulation of those days is going on right now. They started at the Cross. Jesus is not talking about Jacob's trouble. Jacob's trouble or the "GT" is for Israel, not the church. The Second Coming already happened, because Jesus as King is on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

That would be rather a quick trip post-trib...

1. To meet the Lord Jesus in the sky
2. To return with him to reign a thousand years!

The church does not rule on earth. The church has been ruling from Paradise since the Cross. The church comes down as the New Jerusalem after the 1,000 year reign.

 

[rockytopva]

The church does not rule on earth. The church has been ruling from Paradise since the Cross. The church comes down as the New Jerusalem after the 1,000 year reign.

1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:1-6

 

[shilohsfoal]

Yes, what Daniel wrote was fulfilled. Greece was the 3rd kingdom. Do you think the Pharisees taught that Greece was the 3rd kingdom? You sidestepped the point by introducing the Pharisees as a non point to my post. How many Pharisees lived in or around Jerusalem when Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled Daniel?

When what John saw in Revelation 13 happens, that is when those in Jerusalem need to flee. Do you not associate Revelation 13 with when Satan sets up the AoD, and is allowed to sit on the throne of Jesus in the temple in Jerusalem? That is when Jerusalem is made the harlot of all religious aspects of those humans left on earth. Jerusalem is not destroyed during this time, just the religions of man are translated into Satan worship.

So you believe the time of the end and the resurrection of the dead was in 167 BC.

Who do you believe raised the dead in167BC?


Oh PS,to answer your question,the sect of the pharisees was established in 167 BC.

 

[Davy]

That would be rather a quick trip post-trib...

1. To meet the Lord Jesus in the sky
2. To return with him to reign a thousand years!

That of course, that 1. and 2. is men's doctrine of a pre-trib rapture, and not actual Bible Scripture.

Jesus comes only one time on the last day of this present world. And he gathers His saints with Him to Jerusalem per Zechariah 14 as written. The heavenly dimension will be revealed to all when that gathering event happens, on the "last trump" at the "twinkling of an eye". All eyes will see Him like Revelation 1 says, and the nations will mourn when they see Him, like Matthew 24 and Mark 13 says. Thus there is no secret rapture involved.

 

[rockytopva]

That of course, that 1. and 2. is men's doctrine of a pre-trib rapture, and not actual Bible Scripture.

Jesus comes only one time on the last day of this present world. And he gathers His saints with Him to Jerusalem per Zechariah 14 as written. The heavenly dimension will be revealed to all when that gathering event happens, on the "last trump" at the "twinkling of an eye". All eyes will see Him like Revelation 1 says, and the nations will mourn when they see Him, like Matthew 24 and Mark 13 says. Thus there is no secret rapture involved.

Well.. Then... According to you he does not come in an hour we think not!

 

[Davy]

Well.. Then... According to you he does not come in an hour we think not!

Jesus comes like He said, "as a thief". And His 'faithful' servants are 'watching' the Signs of the end He gave so as to be the "goodman of the house" that will understand in what 'watch' the thief will come...

Matt 24:42-47
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
KJV

That part about the servant above being blessed because when Jesus comes, He finds that servant giving that "meat in due season", that is about the "strong meat" of Hebrews 5. It is pointing to the understanding of these SIGNS of the end Lord Jesus gave so as to be able to WATCH, leading up to His future coming.

 

[Davy]

The reason Lord Jesus gave His faithful Church the Signs of the end leading up to His future return, is so His Church would NOT be deceived. He is not coming to gather His Church until AFTER the tribulation like He said (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

So He told His faithful Church how to stay in Him, and not be deceived, and that is what His command for us to WATCH is about. It is about 'watching' those SIGNS of the end He gave us (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21, which is His discourse on the 'end' while upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples; and the Signs of His Book of Revelation, which are the SAME Signs He was giving in His Olivet discourse.)


When Jesus said the following to the Church at Sardis...

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

... He was pointing to them how they (and us) are to be 'watching' to KNOW WHAT HOUR HE WILL COME.

When Jesus said in Matthew 24 that no man knows the day or hour of His future coming, but The Father only, then WHY... would He say the above in red to the Church at Sardis?

In Matthew 24:43, Jesus was saying the same thing, that if the goodman of the house had known in WHAT WATCH the thief would come, he would not allow his house to be broken into.

Matt 24:43-44
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
KJV

And in Revelation 16:15, Lord Jesus tells us that He comes "as a thief".

It doesn't take an anvil to hit me on the head to grasp what He was teaching with all that. We are supposed to be WATCHING THOSE SIGNS HE GAVE LEADING UP TO HIS COMING. And by THAT... when the 'hour' gets closer, we will understand, and NOT be deceived! That is what His command for us to WATCH is about.

Thus the idea that He also said, that no man knows the day or hour of His coming, that is STILL TRUE, even with the above. But how?

It's because even with knowing and understanding those SIGNS He gave leading up to His coming, we still do not know exactly what day or hour that will be! If you understand the events about God's two witnesses in Revelation 11 on the 2nd Woe, when they rise signals the 3rd Woe coming quickly, which is the 7th Trumpet and shows the time of Jesus taking reign right then. We are told the two witnesses' dead bodies will be left unburied in the street of Jerusalem for 3.5 days, and then they rise. Thus Jesus by that gave us to within 3.5 days of His future coming!

But still, we cannot know exactly what DATE that will be. No man can know.

Now some men preach against the Sign's Jesus gave in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 for when He said He comes AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints. They abuse Jesus' command for His Church to WATCH, because they DO NOT TEACH THAT MEANS WATCHING THE SIGNS OF THE END HE GAVE. They just say, 'be ready', even though they wrongly preach to 'be ready' to be raptured 'at any moment', NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE SIGNS JESUS GAVE.

Thus not WATCHING means not knowing where we are in the timings Jesus gave for the end time events. One who does not WATCH JESUS' SIGNS might as well be living on another planet. And the danger of that mindset is this. These will NOT understand Jesus' Sign about the coming false-Messiah to Jerusalem to play GOD. It means they will be subject to the "strong delusion" that false-Messiah is going to work on earth with playing God. They simply WILL believe that first supernatural Messiah is our Lord Jesus! Thus these deceived that do not WATCH will be gathered to that false one like dead carcases to wheresoever the fowls are feasting on the carcase, per Jesus' warning of Luke 17:37 and Matthew 24:28.