In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?

[TribulationSigns]

What in the world is this nonsense? It says the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the 62 weeks, which followed the first 7 weeks, so that places His death within the 70th week. There's nothing there which says His death would have to occur BEFORE the 70th week could begin. It says just the opposite of that. Do you not know what the word "after" means? Did you not learn the meanings of simple words in school? I have seen dispensationalists try to deny that Jesus was cut off after the end of the 69th week, but I've never seen an Amillennialist make such a ridiculous claim. It seems like you want to be an Amil dispensationalist even though that is not possible.

Ah, classic false accusation at its finest.

Since you’re so confident, why don’t you show me—straight from Daniel 9 or anywhere else in Scripture—where it clearly says how the covenant "FOR" the ONE FINAL (70th) WEEK began? And when is the consummation OF THE FINAL WEEK, exactly?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ah, classic false accusation at its finest.

Do you believe that Jesus was cut off (crucified) during the 70th week? When else could He be cut off since He was to be cut off AFTER the end of the first 69 weeks?

Since you’re so confident, why don’t you show me—straight from Daniel 9 or anywhere else in Scripture—where it clearly says how the covenant "FOR" the ONE FINAL (70th) WEEK began? And when is the consummation OF THE FINAL WEEK, exactly?

There are no scriptures which tell us this explicitly, so no one can do what you're requesting here, including you. But, since it says "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease", any discerning person knows that is talking about how Jesus ushered in the new covenant and made the old covenant obsolete with His death on the cross.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, but this is irrelevant in relation to there being any gaps in the 70 weeks. The prophecy says that 70 weeks were determined to fulfill the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 and gives no indication whatsoever of there being any gaps during the determined time period.

Are the 70 weeks not determined on Daniel's people - the Jews, and the holy city - Jerusalem ?

In Matthew 23:39, Jesus said, speaking about Jerusalem and its inhabitants, the Jews.....

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Do the Jews believe in Jesus as their messiah, yet ?

 

[Douggg]

Do you believe that Jesus was cut off (crucified) during the 70th week? When else could He be cut off since He was to be cut off AFTER the end of the first 69 weeks?

No person who believes that part or all of the 70th week has been fulfilled - can explain Ezekiel 39, which the 70th week is the 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9, and then at the end of the 7 years is Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20, and Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do you believe that Jesus was cut off (crucified) during the 70th week? When else could He be cut off since He was to be cut off AFTER the end of the first 69 weeks?

LOL. The end of the 69th week is the start of the 70th week—fact. So yes, Christ’s crucifixion did confirm the covenant for that one final week, just as I’ve explained repeatedly, completely demolishing your baseless fantasy about baptism confirmation. Your denial? Totally predictable.

There are no scriptures which tell us this explicitly, so no one can do what you're requesting here, including you.

Looks like you can’t explain how the covenant was confirmed for that one week. LOL—surprise, surprise! Always quick to deny, but never ready to back it up.

But, since it says "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease", any discerning person knows that is talking about how Jesus ushered in the new covenant and made the old covenant obsolete with His death on the cross.

Foolish. This has nothing to do with the so-called old covenant animal sacrifice.

The cessation of sacrifice and oblation comes after the confirmation of the covenant—FOR the New Testament Congregation of Israel, the Church, not ethnic Israel—at the Cross. So the sacrifice and oblation have to do with New Testament church which Christ is our High Priest. Therefore after Christ has finished sealing all His people through the testimony of the church FIRST, then, and only then, does the sacrifice for salvation cease. And by whom? By Christ Himself!

This has nothing to do with animal sacrifices, as you mistakenly believe!

Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Do you believe that Jesus was cut off (crucified) during the 70th week? When else could He be cut off since He was to be cut off AFTER the end of the first 69 weeks?

LOL. The end of the 69th week is the start of the 70th week—fact. So yes, Christ’s crucifixion did confirm the covenant for that one final week with the CHURCH, just as I’ve explained repeatedly, completely demolishing your baseless fantasy about baptism confirmation beforehand. Your denial? Totally predictable.

There are no scriptures which tell us this explicitly, so no one can do what you're requesting here, including you.

Looks like you can’t explain how the covenant was confirmed for that one week. LOL—surprise, surprise! Always quick to deny, but never ready to back it up.

But, since it says "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease", any discerning person knows that is talking about how Jesus ushered in the new covenant and made the old covenant obsolete with His death on the cross.

Foolish. This has nothing to do with the so-called old covenant animal sacrifice.

The cessation of sacrifice and oblation comes after the confirmation of the covenant—FOR the New Testament Congregation of Israel, the Church, not ethnic Israel—at the Cross. Do you realize that the covenant week is the millennial kingdom of Revelation 20?! So the sacrifice and oblation have to do with the New Testament church, where Christ is our High Priest since the Cross! After Christ has finished sealing all His people through the testimony of the church FIRST, ie. after the testimony of Two Witnesses FOR salvation is finished, then, and only then, does the sacrifice for salvation cease. And by whom? Guess what? Jesus Christ Himself, according to the context of "he" in Daniel 9:27.

This has nothing to do with animal sacrifices, as you mistakenly believe!

Selah!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are the 70 weeks not determined on Daniel's people - the Jews, and the holy city - Jerusalem ?

Yep. So?

In Matthew 23:39, Jesus said, speaking about Jerusalem and its inhabitants, the Jews.....

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Do the Jews believe in Jesus as their messiah, yet ?

Plenty of Jews have believed in Jesus as their Messiah over the past almost 2,000 years, including 3,000 alone who put their faith in Christ and were saved on the day of Pentecost alone. You are misinterpreting that verse. What Jesus was saying there is that they would not see Him again until they appear before Him on the day of judgment and bow down to Him while confessing that He is Lord.

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. The end of the 69th week is the start of the 70th week—fact. So yes, Christ’s crucifixion did confirm the covenant for that one final week, just as I’ve explained repeatedly, completely demolishing your baseless fantasy about baptism confirmation. Your denial? Totally predictable.

You have no evidence to support your claim that He was crucified immediately after the 69th week ended. None. You have NOTHING to back up your imaginary beliefs, as always.

Looks like you can’t explain how the covenant was confirmed for that one week. LOL—surprise, surprise! Always quick to deny, but never ready to back it up.

I didn't say that. I just said it's not spelled out to us explicitly. You certainly can't explain what it means. You've proven that.

The new covenant was confirmed by Christ's ministry, His death and resurrection, and the preaching of the gospel first to Israel, which happened during the 70th week.

Foolish. This has nothing to do with the so-called old covenant animal sacrifice.

LOL. Talk about foolish! You say "so-called old covenant animal sacrifice"? Why are you so naive? What is your excuse? You deny that the animal sacrifices God used to require were part of the old covenant? Do you deny that the blood of Christ ushered in the new covenant and made the old covenant obsolete?

The cessation of sacrifice and oblation comes after the confirmation of the covenant—FOR the New Testament Congregation of Israel, the Church, not ethnic Israel—at the Cross. So the sacrifice and oblation have to do with New Testament church which Christ is our High Priest. Therefore after Christ has finished sealing all His people through the testimony of the church FIRST, then, and only then, does the sacrifice for salvation cease. And by whom? By Christ Himself!

LOL. Nice word salad there, buddy. What a bunch of gibberish. You have no discernment.

This has nothing to do with animal sacrifices, as you mistakenly believe!

It most certainly does. It's a clear reference to Jesus confirming the new covenant while at the same time making the old covenant and its animal sacrifices obsolete, as described in Hebrews 8-10.

 

[Earburner]

When God made the covenant with Noah, the 2300 day/year clock began ticking at that moment. Again, I stick with years as is proper exegesis.

I am still trying figure how it is that you mean the 2300 days/(years?) clock BEGAN ticking when God made the covenant with Noah.

The 2300 days in Daniel has absolutely nothing to do with Noah.
Approx. 523 BC.- KJV Daniel 8
[13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give BOTH the [temple] sanctuary and the host [army of Israel] to be trodden under foot?

[14] And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred [2300] Days; THEN [by Judas Maccabeus] shall the sanctuary be cleansed [restored].

 

[Earburner]

My understanding does not come from "the wisdom of men", so don't go there.

So then, you do agree with me that KJV Dan. 9:27 has everything to do with Jesus.

Dan. 9[27] And he [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he [Jesus] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he [Jesus] shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

A. "finishing" the six works of God in verse 24;

B. confirming the New covenant with his disciples;

C. His sacrificial death ended the temple animal sacrifices and all services;

D. Jesus' sacrifice of Himself makes the temple unnecessary and was to be destroyed;
E. In 70AD. even until [upto] the consummation of 2 Peter ch. 3, aka the end of God's Age of Grace;

F. and that which was determined in verse 24, shall be poured out upon the desolate, who have repented and believe in Jesus.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So then you do agree with me that Dan. 9:27 has everything to do with Jesus finishing the six works of God in verse 24; confirming the New covenant with his disciples; His sacrificial death ended the temple animal sacrifices and all services; Jesus then makes the temple to be destroyed
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I believe that Daniel 9:27 refers to Jesus being cut off in the midst of the 70th week which ushered in the new covenant and made the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete. That made the temple spiritually desolate even until the physical consummation of the destruction and desolation of the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD.

 

[Earburner]

I believe that Daniel 9:27 refers to Jesus being cut off in the midst of the 70th week which ushered in the new covenant and made the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete. That made the temple spiritually desolate

Amen!! I agree 100%

even until the physical consummation of the destruction and desolation of the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD.

I do not agree to a single consummation that is ONLY connected to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.
Please see my edited post #310

However, I do agree to  "THE" single consummation that SHALL come AFTER the symbolic 1000 years of God's Grace has ended, at the very last end of Him POURING out that which was "determined" upon the "desolate" who have repented and do believe in Jesus. See 2 Peter ch. 3.

Heb. 12
[29] For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Davidpt]

Putting a huge gap within a prophecy that never said it would have any gaps is what I find to be unacceptable. It says in Daniel 9:24 that 70 weeks were determined to fulfill the six things listed in the verse. That means those six things would be fulfilled within a determined 70 week (490 year) time period. Your view stretches that time period at least 2,000 years beyond what was determined starting with the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

Let's asume the 70 weeks were fulfilled without any gaps. According to Daniel 9:24 one of the things that have to be brought in once the 70 weeks have concluded is everlasting righteousness. Obviously, everlasting righteousness can't logically fit within an age that is finite, such as the age we are currently in.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Assuming the 70 weeks have already been fulfilled, when do you suppose Peter said this? Before the 70 weeks were fulfilled or after they were fulfilled? Before you answer that, it would be absurd to disagree that the new heavens and a new earth equal everlasting, therefore, the righteousness being described in this verse has to be everlasting righteousness. And that Peter was still looking for it in the future, not something already present when he spoke these words.

But how does anyone even reason with mindsets such as yours? Your doctrinal bias' won't allow anyone to reason with you. In your mind your doctrinal bias' trump everything, even the real truth, whatever that might be in any particular case. You might agrue I have no room to talk, yet that is not relevant in this case. Maybe other cases it might be relevant, but not in this case, though. In this case the real truth is this---this is how the 70 weeks end--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

No wonder Peter was still looking for everlasting righteousness to be brought in, in the future, because in the meantime there is still this to finish--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. No way in a million years does any of that resemble everlasting righteousness having already been brought in before the last half of verse 27 is fulfilled first.

It is pretty silly, IMO, for anyone to insist that none of this can fit the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of this age--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. That it can only fit 70 AD, lol. But even if it could, which it can't, but if it could, it still places a gap between this---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---and this---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Granted, none of you are arguing against a gap between those events. That's not the issue, though. The issue is this. All of verse 27 is pertaining to the 70th week, the same way, for example, that all of verse 25 is pertaining to the first 69 weeks. When you add verse 25 and 27 together you are supposed to end up with 70 weeks total, not 69 and 1/2 weeks instead. Except a lot of you have verse 27 only involving the first half of the 70th week. Except the 70th week is not 3.5 years, it is 7 years. Except the 70 weeks involve 70 weeks total, not 69 and 1/2 weeks total. But let's just throw a monkey wrench into that and have verse 25 and 27 combined to only be involving 69 and 1/2 weeks total rather than 70 weeks total.

But maybe I need to give up altogether and just admit that it is pointless in me trying to reason with mindsets such as yours, when it comes to a subject such as this. You are not even remotely being reasonable about verse 27 by at least admitting that not only is the beginning and the middle recorded in that verse, so is the last half recorded in that verse. But some of you would rather rely upon speculation instead of what is already plainly written in that verse. Let's just speculate how and when the 70 weeks ended. Let's not use any of the text to help us determine that, text such as---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. IOW, in this case, speculation--good idea, interpreting Scripture with Scripture--bad idea.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amen!! I agree 100%

I do not agree to a single consummation that is ONLY connected to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that since it's clear to me that Daniel 9:24-27 only has to do with the people of Israel and the consummation of the judgment God made against them with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Please see my edited post #310

However, I do agree to  "THE" single consummation that SHALL come AFTER the symbolic 1000 years of God's Grace has ended, at the very last end of Him POURING out that which was "determined" upon the "desolate" who have repented and do believe in Jesus. See 2 Peter ch. 3.

We are both Amils, so we do agree on what 2 Peter 3 means in terms of it occurring after the symbolic thousand years when Jesus returns, but I just don't see Daniel 9:27 as referring to that since Daniel 9:24-27 is a prophecy specifically relating to Israel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's asume the 70 weeks were fulfilled without any gaps.

We don't have to assume that. If the 70 weeks started when we both agree that they started, then we should agree on when it ended as well because the prophecy was determined to end 70 weeks after it started. Daniel 9:24 says that 70 weeks were determined to fulfill the six things listed in that verse. That means a 70 week (490 year) time period was given during which those six things would be fulfilled. You have it as around 2,500 years so far as having been determined to fulfill the prophecy rather than the 490 years that were determined for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

According to Daniel 9:24 one of the things that have to be brought in once the 70 weeks have concluded is everlasting righteousness. Obviously, everlasting righteousness can't logically fit within an age that is finite, such as the age we are currently in.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

It's not talking about everlasting righteousness literally being brought in. If that was the case, then in your Premil view, you would not have Daniel 9:24 being fulfilled until 1,000+ years after the return of Christ. Is that what you believe? I doubt that. You have the 70th week ending when Christ returns, right? But, in a literal sense, you don't have everlasting righteousness being brought in until 1,000+ years after that. So, it makes no sense to take that literally as if it's talking about what 2 Peter 3:13 is talking about.

My understanding of bringing in everlasting righteousness is similar to my understanding of the other five things listed in Daniel 9:24 like the making an end of sins, finishing the transgression and making reconciliation for iniquity in that I believe Christ's death and resurrection accomplished those things.

Christ's death and resurrection didn't bring the literal end of sin, but His blood takes away sins by covering the sins of those who put their trust in Him. So, He made an end of sins in that way.

Here is my understanding of how Jesus brought in everlasting righteousness...

Romans 5:21 "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Jesus brought in the opportuntiy of everlasting righteousness and eternal life by way of His shed blood.

Do you believe that any of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled?

Assuming the 70 weeks have already been fulfilled, when do you suppose Peter said this? Before the 70 weeks were fulfilled or after they were fulfilled? Before you answer that, it would be absurd to disagree that the new heavens and a new earth equal everlasting, therefore, the righteousness being described in this verse has to be everlasting righteousness. And that Peter was still looking for it in the future, not something already present when he spoke these words.

But how does anyone even reason with mindsets such as yours?

Very easily. It is your mindset that is all over the place and completely convoluted, not mine. You admittedly rely completely on your own common sense. You say it all the time. So, that shows you trust your own flawed human wisdom over the teaching of the Holy Spirit. You think similarly to the natural man that Paul referenced in 1 Corinthians 2:14 as did the "babes in Christ" that Paul rebuked in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.

Your doctrinal bias' won't allow anyone to reason with you.

Wrong. What doctrinal bias do I have exactly? You are just trying to talk to me the way I talk to you because you don't like being accused of having doctrinal bias even though you so clearly do. You bring doctrinal bias into every passage that you study. I don't do that. I came to believe in Amillennialism after doing an unbiased study of scripture. You have always been Premill even before you really studied scripture in depth, so you brought that bias into your studies.

In your mind your doctrinal bias' trump everything, even the real truth, whatever that might be in any particular case.

Wrong. You waste so much time spewing this type of nonsense.

You might agrue I have no room to talk, yet that is not relevant in this case.

LOL. Sure.

Maybe other cases it might be relevant, but not in this case, though.

As if that makes any sense. I hope you actually start saying something meaningful soon before I just give up on this post.

In this case the real truth is this---this is how the 70 weeks end--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You mean the fake truth that you made up in your own mind.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No wonder Peter was still looking for everlasting righteousness to be brought in, in the future, because in the meantime there is still this to finish--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. No way in a million years does any of that resemble everlasting righteousness having already been brought in before the last half of verse 27 is fulfilled first.

It is pretty silly, IMO, for anyone to insist that none of this can fit the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of this age--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. That it can only fit 70 AD, lol.

The context is related to 70 AD because it relates to the destruction of the city, Jersualem, and the sanctuary. But, we all know that you are not good at seeing the context of scripture.

But even if it could, which it can't, but if it could, it still places a gap between this---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease---and this---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Granted, none of you are arguing against a gap between those events. That's not the issue, though. The issue is this. All of verse 27 is pertaining to the 70th week, the same way, for example, that all of verse 25 is pertaining to the first 69 weeks.

You have decided to believe that, but I see no basis for that claim.

When you add verse 25 and 27 together you are supposed to end up with 70 weeks total, not 69 and 1/2 weeks instead. Except a lot of you have verse 27 only involving the first half of the 70th week. Except the 70th week is not 3.5 years, it is 7 years. Except the 70 weeks involve 70 weeks total, not 69 and 1/2 weeks total. But let's just throw a monkey wrench into that and have verse 25 and 27 combined to only be involving 69 and 1/2 weeks total rather than 70 weeks total.

How can you understand that the first half of the 70th week relates to Jesus's ministry up until His death and resurrection, but not understand that it wasn't just His ministry, His death and resurrection that confirmed the new covenant, but also the preaching of the gospel that was first preached in Israel (this is a prophecy relating to the people of Israel)? The second half of the 70th week is comprised of the preaching of the gospel in Israel. Just because that is not specifically mentioned there, doesn't mean we can't spiritually discern that. Do we need literally everything spelled out to us? No.

But maybe I need to give up altogether and just admit that it is pointless in me trying to reason with mindsets such as yours, when it comes to a subject such as this. You are not even remotely being reasonable about verse 27 by at least admitting that not only is the beginning and the middle recorded in that verse, so is the last half recorded in that verse.

Wrong. You're calling me unreasonable for merely disagreeing with how you interpret that verse and no other reason. I would say THAT is unreasonable. You're basically saying only those who interpret the prophecy like you do are being reasonable, which is complete nonsense.

But some of you would rather rely upon speculation instead of what is already plainly written in that verse. Let's just speculate how and when the 70 weeks ended. Let's not use any of the text to help us determine that, text such as---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. IOW, in this case, speculation--good idea, interpreting Scripture with Scripture--bad idea.

Says the guy who adds a gap in the prophecy for no good reason other than to make it fit his doctrine. There is no indication whatsoever in the prophecy itself that there are any gaps in it anywhere in terms of the 70 weeks. Instead of 490 years being determined to fulfill the things listed in Daniel 9:24, you have around 2,500 years and counting determined to fulfill those things instead. You are blatantly twisting the text to make it say what you want it to say by turning 490 years into at least around 2,500 years instead.

 

[Douggg]

You are misinterpreting that verse. What Jesus was saying there is that they would not see Him again until they appear before Him on the day of judgment and bow down to Him while confessing that He is Lord.

Jesus was addressing Jerusalem and it's inhabitants, the Jews, in Matthew 23:39. Jerusalem is a city. In Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to Jerusalem and stands on the Mt. of Olives splitting it apart. So Jesus was referring to His return in Matthew 23:39.

Jesus's return is also in Ezekiel 39:21-29, which no person who believes in a partial or complete fulfillment of the 70th week can explain Ezekiel 39. Which proves without a doubt that your interpretation of Daniel 9:27 is incorrect.

You also avoid all end times time frames - calling them "symbolic". Why do you continue when all of the biblical evidence is against your position ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus was addressing Jerusalem and it's inhabitants, the Jews, in Matthew 23:39.

He was not addressing all Jews. Only those who rejected Him like the scribes and Pharisees that He had been calling hypocrites and vipers and such immediately prior to that.

Jerusalem is a city.

Yeah, so? He was addressing unbelieving Jews like the scribes and Pharisees He was rebuking in particular.

In Zechariah 14, Jesus returns to Jerusalem and stands on the Mt. of Olives splitting it apart. So Jesus was referring to His return in Matthew 23:39.

No, He was not. There are a number of problems with seeing Zechariah 14 as relating to Christ's return, as I've shown many, many times already and don't feel like doing so again right now other than to say that it cause people like you who interpret it literally to believe nonsense like the reinstating of animal sacrifices, which contradicts many scriptures including Hebrews 8-10, and the need to worship God in Jerusalem rather than in spirit and truth as Jesus said we should in John 4:19-24.

Jesus's return is also in Ezekiel 39:21-29, which no person who believes in a partial or complete fulfillment of the 70th week can explain Ezekiel 39.

Why do you base your doctrine on some of the most difficult passages in all of scripture instead of clear, straightforward scriptures?

Which proves without a doubt that your interpretation of Daniel 9:27 is incorrect.

LOL. As if your opinion proves anything? Hardly.

You also avoid all end times time frames - calling them "symbolic".

That's a lie. I don't avoid them, I interpret them differently than you do.

Why do you continue when all of the biblical evidence is against your position ?

LOL. Let me make a deal with you, Douggg. If you can convincingly show me how you can reconcile your doctrine with the following clear, straightforward scriptures that I believe support Amillennialism, then I promise not to continue.

Revelation 20 talks about the reign of Christ. Scripture explicitly teaches that Christ began to reign after His resurrection.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 20:6 says that those who reign with Christ are "priests of God and of Christ". Scripture teaches that Christ's followers are priests right now.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Scripture teaches that all believers will have their bodies changed to be immortal while inheriting eternal life in the kingdom of God when Christ returns at the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Matthew 25:31-46).

And it teaches that all unbelievers will be destroyed when He returns which would not allow for any mortals to populate the earth at that point, as the following scriptures indicate.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Scripture also teaches that the saved and lost will be resurrected at generally the same time or hour and then judged.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Scripture teaches that all people will be judged at the same time and not that there will be multiple judgments as Premills believe.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 13:40 As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You have no evidence to support your claim that He was crucified immediately after the 69th week ended. None. You have NOTHING to back up your imaginary beliefs, as always.

Misquote. I never said “immediately” to mean minutes or hours later — I’m following Daniel’s 7+62+1 structure. Christ’s public ministry belongs to the 62 weeks; His death ends the 69th week and begins the 70th week — the one-week covenant confirmation Daniel described. Show where your chronology puts His death without bending Daniel’s count.

I didn't say that. I just said it's not spelled out to us explicitly. You certainly can't explain what it means. You've proven that.

Then you’ve already agreed to most of my point. The difference is precision: Christ’s ministry fits inside the 62 weeks, His death ends the 69th, and that death inaugurates the 70th week. That’s the prophetic structure Daniel gave — no need to muddle the sequence or compress it into a vague “somewhere in the 70th week” guess.

LOL. Talk about foolish! You say "so-called old covenant animal sacrifice"? Why are you so naive? What is your excuse? You deny that the animal sacrifices God used to require were part of the old covenant? Do you deny that the blood of Christ ushered in the new covenant and made the old covenant obsolete?

Of course animal sacrifices were part of the Old Covenant — but Daniel 9:27’s “cessation of sacrifice” is not about the temple’s animal offerings. It happens after Christ confirms the New Covenant with His Church (the New Testament Congregation of Israel), not with national Israel. That “sacrifice” is His once-for-all atonement applied for salvation, which ends only after all the elect are sealed (Revelation 7:1-4). Reducing it to temple rituals misses the prophetic scope entirely.

LOL. Nice word salad there, buddy. What a bunch of gibberish. You have no discernment.

My timeline is simple: ministry in the 62 weeks, death at the end of the 69th, death inaugurating the 70th — which is exactly when the covenant is confirmed with the Church.

It most certainly does. It's a clear reference to Jesus confirming the new covenant while at the same time making the old covenant and its animal sacrifices obsolete, as described in Hebrews 8-10.

Hebrews 8–10 is exactly why Daniel’s “cessation of sacrifice” can’t be reduced to animal offerings. Those sacrifices were shadows; Christ’s is the substance. The prophecy’s focus is the completion of His saving work after all His people are secured — not merely the shutdown of a ritual system in 70 AD. The Cross ended the shadow’s relevance, but the prophecy points to the consummation of the substance.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that since it's clear to me that Daniel 9:24-27 only has to do with the people of Israel and the consummation of the judgment God made against them with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

I knew that your doctrine of Daniel 9:24-27 because of this: Daniel’s “people” in 9:24 are not limited to the ethnic Jews under the Old Covenant. In Christ, all saints — Old Testament and New Testament — make up the true “Congregation of Israel” (Galatians 3:29, Romans 9:6–8). That includes every believer, Jew and Gentile, united in Him. The “holy city” in Daniel 9:24 is not a strip of land in the Middle East but the New Jerusalem — the Bride of Christ — described in Revelation 21. Limiting Daniel’s prophecy to the destruction of physical Jerusalem and a temple of stone misses the reality that the old physical types gave way to the eternal spiritual reality in Christ.

We are both Amils, so we do agree on what 2 Peter 3 means in terms of it occurring after the symbolic thousand years when Jesus returns, but I just don't see Daniel 9:27 as referring to that since Daniel 9:24-27 is a prophecy specifically relating to Israel.

If we’re both Amillennial, then we agree the “symbolic thousand years” is the present Gospel age — but here’s the connection you’re missing: that “thousand years” is indeed the final covenant week of Daniel’s prophecy, the 70th week! In it, Christ confirms the covenant with “Daniel’s people” — not national Israel, but all who are in Him, the true Israel of God (Galatians 6:16). The prophecy is about Christ’s redemptive work for His Bride, not about a geopolitical nation. Once you see that the “holy city” is the Church, the Bride (Revelation 21), the pieces fit: the covenant week is the Gospel age in which the elect are gathered, not an isolated moment in Jewish history.

Selah!