In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?

[TribulationSigns]

Hey, buddy, remember when you said that covenantee and I are not true amillennialists like you (LOL!). Well, here's how your mentor Tony Warren describes amillennialism and I agree with everything he said. So, is he not a true amillennialist or were you wrong to say that I'm not a true amillennialist?

My definition of a true amillennialist is someone who believes in the millennial kingdom spiritually, who will not interpret any Scripture with theories like 34 AD, 70 AD, the need for physical destruction of the temple, animal sacrifices, or Roman soldiers. Tony and I are in the same boat. Go read the rest of the articles (and other articles) —not just the first page. And beware, we do believe the same thing about Satan.

 

[IndianaRob]

My definition of a true amillennialist is someone who believes in the millennial kingdom spiritually, who will not interpret any Scripture with theories like 34 AD, 70 AD, the need for physical destruction of the temple, animal sacrifices, or Roman soldiers. Tony and I are in the same boat. Go read the rest of the articles (and other articles) —not just the first page. And beware, we do believe the same thing about Satan.

In your view when did Jesus return?

 

[TribulationSigns]

In your view when did Jesus return?

Did? No. He WILL return soon.

 

[IndianaRob]

Did? No. He WILL return soon.

Ok thanks.

 

[covenantee]

My definition of a true amillennialist is someone who believes in the millennial kingdom spiritually, who will not interpret any Scripture with theories like 34 AD, 70 AD, the need for physical destruction of the temple, animal sacrifices, or Roman soldiers. Tony and I are in the same boat. Go read the rest of the articles (and other articles) —not just the first page. And beware, we do believe the same thing about Satan.

Is the year that Jesus was born a theory too?

 

[Earburner]

In 70 AD, the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed by the Romans and Jews, who were Prince Messiah's agents and instruments of judgment, complete destruction i.e. consummation, and desolation upon apostate Israel.

There is no mention of fire in the Daniel 9:27 definition of consummation.

If Daniel had meant final fire, he certainly could have chosen a word or description communicating that, given its profound significance.

But he didn't.

Oh but he did mean fire. The scriptures tell us plainly of how God will bring His Everlasting flaming fire to this entire world.
Luke 17:28-30; 2 Thes. 1:7-10; 2 Peter ch. 3.

Dan. 9
[27] And he [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many for one week:
All of which was the 3.5 years of Jesus' joint ministry with John the baptist [Zech. 4:14] to the disciples, and then after Jesus' ascension, the remaining 3.5 years by His Holy Spirit through the Apostles.

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
Jesus sacrificial death made null and void all operations of temple services.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
Because the Jews continued with their sacrificing of animals for the forgiveness of sins, in the eyes of God it was an abomination and a mockery unto the sacrifice of His Son. Thus the temple was destroyed by the Roman Titus and his army.

even until the consummation,
Therefore the temple building that once was in Jerusalem shall never be rebuilt again.
For how long?? "Even until [upto] the consummation, aka the complete end of all things in this world, as well as the earth itself.

and that determined [verse 24] shall be poured upon the desolate.
What was "determined" for all of mankind, were the six works of God that He gave for Jesus to do and to "finish". Today, every born again Christian is a recipient of the work of Jesus, through the free Gift of the Holy Spirit, that was poured out upon all flesh to freely receive God's Gift of salvation, through repentance towards God and having faith in Jesus.

 

[covenantee]

Oh but he did.
[27] And he [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many for one week:
All of which was the 3.5 years of Jesus' joint ministry with John the baptist [Zech. 4:14] to the disciples, and then after Jesus' ascension, the remaining 3.5 years by His Holy Spirit through the Apostles.

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
Jesus sacrificial death made null and void all operations of temple services.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
Because the Jews continued with their sacrificing of animals for the forgiveness of sins, in the eyes of God it was an abomination and a mockery unto the sacrifice of His Son. Thus the temple was destroyed by the Roman Titus and his army.

even until the consummation,
Therefore the temple building that once was in Jerusalem shall never be rebuilt again.
For how long?? "Even until [upto] the consummation, aka the complete end of all things in this world, as well as the earth itself.

and that determined [verse 24] shall be poured upon the desolate.
What was "determined" for all of mankind, were the six works of God that He gave for Jesus to do and to "finish". Today, every born again Christian is a recipient of the work of Jesus, through the free Gift of the Holy Spirit, that was poured out upon all flesh to freely receive God's Gift of salvation, through repentance towards God and having faith in Jesus

Did you look at the definitions of "consummation"?
Did you see "fire" in those definitions?
To reiterate, consummation in Daniel 9:27 is associated with desolation ("he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation")
And desolation in Daniel 9:26-27 is associated with 70 AD.
There will be no desolation in the final fiery consummation, because there will be nothing left to be desolate after its complete annihilation by fire.
In 70 AD, the consummation resulted in desolation, because while all the city's structures were destroyed, the ground itself still remained, allowing for the rebuilding of the city.
There will be no ground remaining after its complete annihilation by fire in the final fiery consummation.
Daniel was referring to the 70 AD consummation, not the final fiery consummation.

 

[Earburner]

Did you look at the definitions of "consummation"?
Did you see "fire" in those definitions?
To reiterate, consummation in Daniel 9:27 is associated with desolation ("he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation")
And desolation in Daniel 9:26-27 is associated with 70 AD.
There will be no desolation in the final fiery consummation, because there will be nothing left to be desolate after its complete annihilation by fire.
In 70 AD, the consummation resulted in desolation, because while all the city's structures were destroyed, the ground itself still remained, allowing for the rebuilding of the city.
There will be no ground remaining after its complete annihilation by fire in the final fiery consummation.
Daniel was referring to the 70 AD consummation, not the final fiery consummation.

Please notice that all desolations, that are less than 2 Peter ch. 3, are NOT "the consummation" in Dan. 9:27.
How it is that you cannot understand the words I just quoted, but instead sense the need to fabricate fiction about it, tells me that you are failing to let go of a pet doctrine.

Please read it again:
"even until the consummation"
Therefore the temple building that once was in Jerusalem shall never be rebuilt again.
For how long?? "Even until [upto] the consummation, aka the complete end of all things in this world, as well as the earth itself.

 

[covenantee]

Please notice that all desolations, that are less than 2 Peter ch. 3, are NOT "the consummation" in Dan. 9:27.
How it is that you cannot understand the words I quoted, but instead sense the need to fabricate fiction about it, tells me that you are failing to let go of a pet doctrine.

Doctrine backed by evidences.

Do you agree that there is no "fire" in the definitions of "consummation"?

 

[Marvelloustime]

Yet if we take into consideration WHAT JESUS himself says concerning that day
MIght not be hearing even the cocka and the doodle doo of that ol rooster in the am .
Did you say twenty thirty and seven . That is another twelve years to go .
But who says we got even twelve days left .
MOST are already in love with a sensual love and THEY DONT EVEN KNOW IT .
And the most i was talking about SITS in churches that affiliate themselves with THE LOVELY NAME OF JESUS .
In other words I must now name christendom under an arabic name .
Now dont take offense i aint against arabic .
BUT when you read the name that most all of christendom is now under to some degree , some worse than others
BUT THEY UNDER IT none the less , you gonna understand why i said arabic .
SO this is what i say to christendom , to the catholics , to the mormons , to most all of even the protestant realm
YUSAH Bins DUPED . CAUSE MANY HAVE BEEN DUPED . BETTER BIBLE UP RIGHT NOW TODAY
is all i can say and STOP READING IT through the lens of men .

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

Tares and false brethren and wolves running amok among the wheat.....being accepted as if they are true. Being of the world they follow the ways of the world...ways that seemeth right to man but lead to death.......and are leading many of God's people to embrace the same.

People say we have no right to determine anyone's salvation status, whether anyone is of God or of the world..........however, not discerning who is who makes one vulnerable to being led astray by those who are false. And the way to discern the wrong.......is by knowing the true.

And what did that lead too dear sister . Exactly many got led astray by those who were and who are false .
Cause todays sin has been Naming and indentifying the false by name .
But what did GOD say to a church
that was even ALLOWING a false one to teach and to seduce the people .
I HAVE THIS AGAINST YOU .
todays generation grew up on hearing things like DONT judge dont correct
dont name names , dont accuse ,
They beleiving its actually hateful and judgmental to even name sins , to even give the names of those who do lead this people astray .
All under the banner its loving .
IF we examine what this led too
we would see it led to only greater and greater hatred against THE VERY GOD and CHRIST
HIS WORDS , HIS PATTERN .
All under the banner its loving and tolerant dont judge , dont hate .
And it led to the ACCEPTANCE OF sins and of the lie . the lie that more and more beleive in every day .
That we has us a REAL BIG BROAD SIN ACCEPTING UNBELEIF ACCEPTING PATH TO GOD .
And they see this as love sent from WHO they THINK IS GOD .
But what has this love done and what did it do and what does it do .
IT LEFT THEM IN DARKNESS and bondage of sin
in time leads them to even the acceptance of such sins
And as unrepentant sinners were left uncorrected
the path to what they SEE as LOVE and beleive leads to GOD
HAS EVEN LED THEM TO THE LIE of interefaith and that which is of anti christ .
WHEN One blends the unrepentant within christainity with the repentant
and say JUDGE NOT CORRECT NOT , what did we think was gonna happen .
LEaven leavens . and there was good reason why GOD had said BE YE NOT unequally yoked together .
Now they even are yoking up with the false religoins
believing its all for the good of humanity
beleiving it is the plan and will of GOD himself for world peace
And more and more beleiving that they all serving the same GOD .
ITS KNOWN AS , when you dont correct leaven , WELL ITS SURE GONNA GROW AND TAKE OVER the place .
AND it sure has sister .

 

[Earburner]

Doctrine backed by evidences.

Do you agree that there is no "fire" in the definitions of "consummation"?

I cannot violate scripture, even though you think that you can.

Again, there is only one "THE consummation".
2 Peter 3
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in STORE, RESERVED unto fire against
THE day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

 

[Lizbeth]

Did you look at the definitions of "consummation"?
Did you see "fire" in those definitions?
To reiterate, consummation in Daniel 9:27 is associated with desolation ("he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation")
And desolation in Daniel 9:26-27 is associated with 70 AD.
There will be no desolation in the final fiery consummation, because there will be nothing left to be desolate after its complete annihilation by fire.
In 70 AD, the consummation resulted in desolation, because while all the city's structures were destroyed, the ground itself still remained, allowing for the rebuilding of the city.
There will be no ground remaining after its complete annihilation by fire in the final fiery consummation.
Daniel was referring to the 70 AD consummation, not the final fiery consummation.

What if there was "the" consummation to the Jews (first), then "the" consummation to the world later? "What has been will be again, there is nothing new under the sun." It's been a very long time since I tried looking at the seventieth week specifically, but what if the seventieth week is left apparently open on purpose for that second fulfillment to the world? God's word is spiritual, it isn't "confined" or limited to literal private interpretation.

 

[amigo de christo]

I cannot violate scripture, even though you think that you can.

Again, there is only one "THE consummation".
2 Peter 3
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in STORE, RESERVED unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

And by the signs of the times , THAT there day is approaching .
Inquity has skyrocketed
a false lovey do path to what the false religoins and much of christendom
beleives leads to GOD has been accepted . FAT LIE of anti christ
And they all merge more and more under its love which has led them to the lie .
Beleiving this is the way to attain peace n safety .
Many false teachers have abounded within christendome .
And many follow their perniscous ways .
Swift destruction shall come upon them
And as paul once wrote , FOR WHEN they shall say peace n safety , SUDDEN destruction .
OH its growing like fire on dry grass being fed with white gas . And for all of this
THE WRATH OF GOD ALL MIGHTY and OF THE LAMB shall come upon this generation .
We better get busy preaching CHRIST to all , correcting any and all sin and error , exposing any and all false teachers
Cause on the day of the LORD , WHEN THE DOOR is shut
ALL OUTSIDE WILL WAIL . And JESUS dont kiss korans and budda statues
NOr does HE honor and even accept ANYONES sins . SO another jesus wont be saving them at all .

 

[Lizbeth]

I cannot violate scripture, even though you think that you can.

Again, there is only one "THE consummation".
2 Peter 3
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in STORE, RESERVED unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Fulfilled to the Jew first, then the Gentile...? The heaven/earth referred to is for one thing referring to the heaven/earth of the old covenant...."heaven" referring to the "firmament" between the cherubim on the ark and "earth" referring to the beggardly old covenant "elements of this world" as well as the nation of Israel itself.

In Matthew 24 and other gospels, Jesus being a prophet of Israel was for sure prophesying to Israel of the soon coming destruction that would happen in 70AD....He was not lying when He said that generation would not pass away before those things happened. But it is speaking warning and instruction to the church at the same time, because these things happened unto Israel for our ensample and admonition.

 

[amigo de christo]

In a day and in an hour unaware
THE DOOR GONNA SHUT and all outside shall wail .

 

[soberxp]

So the end described in Daniel is not the end of the world, but the end date of 2300.

The King of the North may represent Greek culture and Ancient Rome, the King of the South may represent Egypt, Israel,

 

[Davidpt]

Please notice that all desolations, that are less than 2 Peter ch. 3, are NOT "the consummation" in Dan. 9:27.
How it is that you cannot understand the words I just quoted, but instead sense the need to fabricate fiction about it, tells me that you are failing to let go of a pet doctrine.

Please read it again:
"even until the consummation"
Therefore the temple building that once was in Jerusalem shall never be rebuilt again.
For how long?? "Even until [upto] the consummation, aka the complete end of all things in this world, as well as the earth itself.

Try reading what the text actually says. Then use Scripture in the book of Daniel to interpret Scripture.

First of all here is what the text actually says---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. Let's stop here for now. What needs to be asked and have an answer for, shall make what desolate? Obviously, this---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. What else could it be referring to in that verse if not that? Obviously, this--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.--has to have a nearest antecedent. There has to be context nearby that explains it, and clearly 2 Peter 3:10 is not that context that explains it. What I have quoted from verse 27 thus far has zero to do with 2 Peter 3:10. Then look what else the text actually says---even until the consummation

Which seems to be telling us that he makes it desolate throughout the entire 2nd half of the 70th week even up to the consummation, the end of the 70th week, the end of the 70 weeks. That's where 2 Peter 3:10 fits in, not during this instead--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.

The next question is, in what way does he make it desolate? The keyword is desolate and that it is the Hebrew word shamem and is used in the following passages in the book of Daniel.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations(shamem) are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate(shamem), even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate(shamem).

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation(shamem), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?


Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate(shamem).

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate(shamem) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

One would have to be blind or have doctrinal bias' so severe to not see the connections here. Anyone who insists the desolation recorded in Daniel 9:27 is not the same desolation recorded in these other passages have reading comprehension issues in that case. And/or don't have a clue how Scripture interpreting Scripture actually works, regardless that they might insist they interpret Scripture with Scripture. OK then, so why isn't that same one interpreting Scripture with Scripture in this case, assuming they insist there is zero connection with the desolation recorded in Daniel 9:27 with that of these other passages I submitted?

On a side note. Most in here can write and formulate their thoughts better than I can, but even so, I feel I surpass them in reading comprehension a lot of the time, so maybe not every time, yet a lot of the time, regardless. I would rather have better reading comprehension than better writing skills, if in my case I can't have both. I'm not saying others can't have both. I'm only meaning in my case. The point being, good reading comprehension trumps good writing skills. One doesn't have to have good writing skills in order to have good reading comprehension, being another point.

 

[covenantee]

What if there was "the" consummation to the Jews (first), then "the" consummation to the world later? "What has been will be again, there is nothing new under the sun." It's been a very long time since I tried looking at the seventieth week specifically, but what if the seventieth week is left apparently open on purpose for that second fulfillment to the world? God's word is spiritual, it isn't "confined" or limited to literal private interpretation.

How could 70 weeks be determined if the 70th week is not determined?

 

[Douggg]

Did? No. He WILL return soon.

Have you made a time line chart of the 7 years preceding Jesus's return, yet ?