In exile from the church - disconnected from what?

[Spyder]

And isn’t this why the Boereans were commended because they made sure that what Paul was teaching was in accord with their Scriptures. They were not influenced by the Jews who tried to dissuade them.

Wasn’t original Christianity an organised group? Did they not meet together for Bible instruction and worship, as well as fellowship? Did these not commune with God and through his son work as a unified collective?

I heard someone once put it this way....
How do you hide a 50 ft tree out in the middle of a cleared field? And the answer is you can’t......but if you have time up your sleeve, you can plant a whole forest of trees of the same kind all around it, and allow them to grow....eventually it will be extremely difficult to identify the original tree.
This is what the devil has done......and he has been extremely successful in hiding the original “tree” with a forest of counterfeits. Jesus told us to expect it.....in his parable of the “wheat” and the “weeds”.

There was a central governing body in Jerusalem who determined the outcome of any serious divisions that were occurring, such as the circumcision issue, and once a decision was made under the authority of the Holy Spirit, all then complied with that decision. Letters were written to the congregations and 1 Cor 1:10 was their reality.
Thinking that we can be ‘lone rangers’ somehow setting our chosen beliefs as our own religion, can be a trap. If no one else shares what we believe then Heb 10:24-25 is meaningless. We are to meet regularly with our brothers and sister in the faith and “all the more so” as we see the “day” of judgment approaching......this is the time when we need each other the most....a time when disunity hinders any real spiritual growth. Christianity is not claiming disunity to be the one thing that unites the collective.

A separation is under way as we speak.....those who have the right heart condition will not be among the disunited rabble who claim to be “the body of Christ”.......because it is a dismembered body that has bits of Jesus all over the place. (Matt 7:21-23)
Those whom Jesus recognises as his own will be viewed in the same “way” as what he started....a hated and persecuted minority, (John 15:18-21; Matt 5:11-12) who are seen as a threat to true worship....yet oblivious to the fact that they have never practiced it.

Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism....blinded by their own inculcated hatred for any deviation from their accepted doctrines.....blind to where those doctrines originated in the first place.

None of us can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65)

I enjoyed this post quite a bit Aunty Jane. Thank you.

The Bereans searched the scriptures (which at that time had no "new Testament" to review) to compare Paul's words and statements to see if he could be telling the truth. That is something we should ALL be doing.

As for another question you asked, the answer varies. When you say an "organized group," much depends on how you define "organized." It also depends on how close to the resurrection and the time of the Apostles you are asking about.

There was a document - the Didache - that sprung up to aid groups in their behaviors and some warnings about who they would listen to. It has been amended from its original contents along the way. That must have served as their "statement of faith" at the time. Were the organized, have bylaws, paid a preacher to teach doctrines? I'd say no as they met in homes and discussed contents of the scriptures that they had at the time. I imagination tells me that they were a more "spiritual" group as their faith during that time seems to have been very strong. It had to in order for them to exist in the fist few hundred years.

However, history shows us what happened to them and how man took over "the church", deconstructed the existing house churches, made official documents, preached a different gospel, produced a Latin text, etc, etc.

I do believe that God is adjusting "the church" now. I think there is some sifting going on. I have no concrete things to point to except my personal experiences to go by. But, I am living , praying, and watching.

Than you for this post.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Bereans searched the scriptures (which at that time had no "new Testament" to review) to compare Paul's words and statements to see if he could be telling the truth. That is something we should ALL be doing.

It is important to note that the Hebrew Scriptures were the only scripture they had to prove that Jesus was the Christ. (Referred to by Paul in 2 Tim 3:16-17) Jesus and the apostles often quoted from these scriptures to prove to the Jews who the Messiah was prophesied to be.
Jesus even went to deliberate lengths to fulfill prophesy written about him. (Luke 22:36-38)

As for another question you asked, the answer varies. When you say an "organized group," much depends on how you define "organized." It also depends on how close to the resurrection and the time of the Apostles you are asking about.

Yes….we need to step back and see the ways in which the first Christians conducted their worship and how very differently the later apostates turned it into something completely different….

“By the start of the second century C.E., false teachings had begun to muddy the clear waters of Christian truth. Just as inspired prophecy had foretold, after the death of the apostles, certain ones abandoned the truth and turned instead to “myths.” (2 Timothy 4:3, 4, footnote) About 98 C.E., John, the last surviving apostle, warned of such erroneous teachings and of people “who [were] trying to mislead” faithful Christians.—1 John 2:26;4:1, 6.

Soon, men who came to be known as the Apostolic Fathers arrived on the scene. What stand did they take in the face of religious deception? Did they heed the apostle John’s divinely inspired warning?”

History tells the story….

There was a document - the Didache - that sprung up to aid groups in their behaviors and some warnings about who they would listen to. It has been amended from its original contents along the way. That must have served as their "statement of faith" at the time. Were the organized, have bylaws, paid a preacher to teach doctrines? I'd say no as they met in homes and discussed contents of the scriptures that they had at the time. I imagination tells me that they were a more "spiritual" group as their faith during that time seems to have been very strong. It had to in order for them to exist in the fist few hundred years.

“Today, it is difficult to judge just how closely the teachings of the Apostolic Fathers corresponded to Jesus’ teachings. The aim of these men was undoubtedly to preserve or else promote a certain brand of Christianity. They condemned idolatry and loose morals. They held that Jesus is the Son of God and that he was resurrected. However, they were unable to restrain the rising tide of apostasy. On the contrary, some of them added to its swell.

Certain currents of early “Christian” thought actually deviated from the teachings of Christ and his apostles. For example, contrary to the practice instituted by Jesus at the…Last Supper, the author of The Didache advised the passing of the wine before the bread. (Matthew 26:26, 27) This writer also stated that if no body of water was available to perform baptism by immersion, pouring water on the head of the baptism candidate would suffice. (Mark 1:9, 10; Acts 8:36, 38) The same text encouraged Christians to observe such rituals as obligatory fasting twice a week and recitation of the Our Father exactly three times a day.—Matthew 6:5-13; Luke 18:12.

For his part, Ignatius envisioned a new organization of the Christian congregation, with just one bishop presiding “in the place of God.” This bishop would hold authority over many priests. Such inventions opened the way for further waves of unscriptural teaching.—Matthew 23:8, 9.”
(Exerpts from The Apostolic Fathers -Truly Apostolic? WT)

Can we see the foundations of the RCC being laid?……and all her errant daughters taking along their mother’s dirty laundry….united only in their disunity.

However, history shows us what happened to them and how man took over "the church", deconstructed the existing house churches, made official documents, preached a different gospel, produced a Latin text, etc, etc.

I do believe that God is adjusting "the church" now. I think there is some sifting going on. I have no concrete things to point to except my personal experiences to go by. But, I am living , praying, and watching.

The Bible does not indicate that a mere ‘sifting’ was in order…..it speaks of a complete separation between the true Christian faith, and “the church” that emerged from it through the adoption of traditions introduced by corrupt men. (Matt 15:7-9) History does indeed show what happened…but only to those not blinded by the devil. (2 Cor 4:3-4) Interestingly, he can only do that to “unbelievers”.

Since all of Christendom bases their “Christian” beliefs on those formulated by the RCC, they have unwittingly accepted the counterfeit as the real thing, and when the real thing emerged and separated from that disgusting substitute, (as it was foretold) it was going to be “hated and persecuted” just as Jesus and his disciples were in the first century. (Matt15:18-21) History repeats because Satan knows how to manipulate human thinking. Today it’s known as the science of “perception management”.

Than you for this post.

You are welcome…..we need to be on guard because in a world completely controlled by the devil, nothing is as it seems. We see in human responses that there is “nothing new under the sun” as Solomon said. Humans continue to fall into the same traps because Satan knows us well and needs no new tactics.

The other interesting thing is, that again it is the minority who are on the right track, and the majority who are headed for destruction. (Matt 7:13-14) God has always had a faithful minority, whilst the devil has the rest….and he will take the “goats” down into oblivion with him….(Matt 25:31-34; 41; 46)

But again we can have confidence that God will “draw” only those who can see through the counterfeits, and who cannot accept their teachings as truth.….(that inexplicable feeling that something is not right.) (Matt 6:44)
To accept what is not truth, means that they do not know, and have never known, the God they claim to serve. (John 17:3; Matt 7:21-23)

 

[St. SteVen]

Whether by personal decision, or being forced out, some (or many?) are exiled from the institution of the church.
I did some quick research to see if there are any statistics on Christians leaving the church.
Wanting to know if it really is just SOME, or if it is MANY. (probably many, but...) ???

The search results seemed to indicate that "leaving the church" is viewed as leaving Christianity.
And I suppose leaving "Christianity" (the church) is viewed as "leaving God". (sigh)
Obviously, there are a full spectrum of reasons and outcomes.

More at the OP. (first post)

[

 

[amigo de christo]

Whether by personal decision, or being forced out, some (or many?) are exiled from the institution of the church.
I did some quick research to see if there are any statistics on Christians leaving the church.
Wanting to know if it really is just SOME, or if it is MANY. (probably many, but...) ???

The search results seemed to indicate that "leaving the church" is viewed as leaving Christianity.
And I suppose leaving "Christianity" (the church) is viewed as "leaving God". (sigh)
Obviously, there are a full spectrum of reasons and outcomes.

More at the OP. (first post)

[

It would indeed depend on the reason .
IF one leaves a church due to the fact its leaders have compromised biblical truth
and refused correction , THEN AMEN for them .
Many also leave cause they want to hear what tickles the ear and if a church wont preach that
WELL they leave , BAD NEWS to them .
The problem is a whole heap of churches within the entire realm of the catholic protestent realm
HAVE ABANDONED sound doctrine all together and preach only twisted junk
that pleases the ears of man in order to keep the money COMING ON IN on the money train .
We must bible up and now . The LORD is leading the few sheep
but another is leading the many and that other desires only death for them all . Hims the devil , that ol serpent
and many sure love his twisted messages .

 

[Marvelloustime]

It would indeed depend on the reason .
IF one leaves a church due to the fact its leaders have compromised biblical truth
and refused correction , THEN AMEN for them .
Many also leave cause they want to hear what tickles the ear and if a church wont preach that
WELL they leave , BAD NEWS to them .
The problem is a whole heap of churches within the entire realm of the catholic protestent realm
HAVE ABANDONED sound doctrine all together and preach only twisted junk
that pleases the ears of man in order to keep the money COMING ON IN on the money train .
We must bible up and now . The LORD is leading the few sheep
but another is leading the many and that other desires only death for them all . Hims the devil , that ol serpent
and many sure love his twisted messages .

@amigo de christo

 

[St. SteVen]

Whether by personal decision, or being forced out,
some (or many?) are exiled from the institution of the church.

I did some quick research to see if there are any statistics on Christians leaving the church.
Wanting to know if it really is just SOME, or if it is MANY. (probably many, but...) ???

The search results seemed to indicate that "leaving the church" is viewed as leaving Christianity.
And I suppose leaving "Christianity" (the church) is viewed as "leaving God". (sigh)
Obviously, there are a full spectrum of reasons and outcomes.

See the OP for further info.

[

 

[Lambano]

The search results seemed to indicate that "leaving the church" is viewed as leaving Christianity.
And I suppose leaving "Christianity" (the church) is viewed as "leaving God". (sigh)

Big "C" Church or little "c" church?

 

[Lambano]

In exile from the church - disconnected from what?​

I'm not in exile from my church - but the sense of disconnection is real.

But that's a "me" problem.

 

[St. SteVen]

In exile from the church - disconnected from what?​

I'm not in exile from my church - but the sense of disconnection is real.

But that's a "me" problem.

I can empathize.
And perhaps most are experiencing this to some degree.
From the point that I was fully developed in my theology, I have not been in 100% agreement with any church.
And I'm okay with that. But it does cause some level of isolation.

[

 

[Lambano]

I can empathize.
And perhaps most are experiencing this to some degree.
From the point that I was fully developed in my theology, I have not been in 100% agreement with any church.
And I'm okay with that. But it does cause some level of isolation.

[

The problem isn't theological. The disconnect is on the human level - a lack of a sense of community. I've brushed against this in some of your other threads. I'm not sure this is the right one to explore it.

 

[St. SteVen]

The problem isn't theological. The disconnect is on the human level - a lack of a sense of community. I've brushed against this in some of your other threads. I'm not sure this is the right one to explore it.

Actually the feeling of a lack of community could be a major factor in exile from the church, be it physical or emotional, or spiritual. ???
Is the lack of community you feel the fault of the church?

[

 

[Lambano]

Actually the feeling of a lack of community could be a major factor in exile from the church, be it physical or emotional, or spiritual. ???
Is the lack of community you feel the fault of the church?

[

Good point, and that would make this pertinent to your thread.

I was thinking about this at the fellowship gathering after yet another funeral (excuse me, "Service of Death and Resurrection"). Nobody really reached out to talk to me, and I don't know if I really wanted to talk to anybody else. Disregarding for the moment the natural handicap of being an introvert (which is why I say at least part of the problem is a "me" problem), what IS it that holds a church (or any group) together into a community?

We've talked about shared beliefs in other threads, and I've observed that as we become more diverse, that's become less and less of the glue that holds us together. What does (or "should") make us into a community?

 

[St. SteVen]

We've talked about shared beliefs in other threads, and I've observed that as we become more diverse, that's become less and less of the glue that holds us together. What does (or "should") make us into a community?

In my experience, talking to others in fellowship time (coffee/donuts) and small group involvement has been where deeper relationships and community are formed. But I'm a bit of an extrovert, so these things come more naturally to me.

My father used to say, if one wants friends, they need to be friendly.

[

 

[Lambano]

Prayer and a donut works for me.

 

[St. SteVen]

Prayer and a donut works for me.

Indeed.
I need to tell you about Darrell.

After first service there are donuts and coffee before second service.
I noticed an elderly gentleman I had not met before sitting at a table alone.
I walked up and introduced myself before I sat down with him.
He said his name was Darrell.

"Darrell?" I asked. "With two"r"s and two "l"s? Yes.
I informed Darrell that my father's name was Darrell.
We became fast friends. I had to know all about him.

It turned out that he had used a taxi service to get to church.
I asked him where he lived and offered to give him a ride home.

From then on, we were his regular lift home.
And we always enjoyed some coffee and donuts first.

Others joined us at the table and got to know Darrell as well.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Prayer and a donut works for me.

I find it curious that we have food at social events.
It's impolite to speak with your mouth full.
And any meaningful conversation requires quick responses.

[

 

[Lambano]

I find it curious that we have food at social events.
It's impolite to speak with your mouth full.
And any meaningful conversation requires quick responses.

[

Perhaps that's a good application of Matthew 15:11?

 

[St. SteVen]

Whether by personal decision, or being forced out, some (or many?)
are exiled from the institution of the church.
I did some quick research to see if there are any statistics on Christians leaving the church.
Wanting to know if it really is just SOME, or if it is MANY. (probably many, but...) ???

The search results seemed to indicate that "leaving the church" is viewed as leaving Christianity.
And I suppose leaving "Christianity" (the church) is viewed as "leaving God". (sigh)
Obviously, there are a full spectrum of reasons and outcomes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And the typical knee-jerk reaction of "the church", or "Christianity" is to quote 1 John 2:19 saying:
"... they left us because they were never of us." (ouch) Thus damning the exiles.

Seems that the church is like a hospital that sends their flesh wound patients directly to the morgue. (ouch)
Mostly, I suppose, due to the "our way, or the highway" stance of most churches, and Christianity in general.

And it has to be that way on some level. Nothing like-minded about a doctrinal free-for-all.
It becomes a matter of identity, that can easily devolve into tribalism, and a self-congratulating echo chamber.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway, back to the statistics. The Washington Post had an article about "dechurching",
based on a book written by Jim Davis and Michael Graham. Here's an article quote.
"The study included a survey of 1,043 Americans to determine the scope of dechurching — which was defined as
having attended service at least once a month in the past and now attending less than once a year.
That initial survey found that about 15% of Americans are dechurched." Source

This survey, at least, seems to indicate that the number is SOME, rather than MANY.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Statistics aside, What does this mean to both INSIDERS and OUTSIDERS.

For OUTSIDERS
Depends on the reasons for exile and the outcome.
Did they leave, or can't "find" a church that "works" for them?
If they left by their own choice, what was the reason?
Doctrinal issues? Being hurt in personal relationships with members or staff?
What happened? And where did it leave them?

Assuming these exiles still have a relationship with God, how has this affected
their relationship with "church-goers" and the "church"? (the institution) What are
they doing to replace what "church" should have been providing for them?

For INSIDERS
What are your views toward the exiles?
How did you treat them before they left, and after?
Did you cut ties with them? Did you shun them?
Might they have left BECAUSE of how you treated them?
Do you bear some responsibility for that?

Curious to hear both OUTSIDER and INSIDER testimonies on this subject.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If “the Church” (supposedly one entity) is disembodied by a multitude of differences, how does that indicate the operation of God’s spirit? Does the Creator speak with a forked tongue?...or is it the other fellow who does that?

And if those sitting in a building, (called a “church”, when the word in Greek was speaking about the gathering of people inside the building) and in claiming to be “Christians”, they do not follow all the teachings of Christ, but just the easy ones.....what is that saying about their commitment to Jesus as their savior? Are we allowed to just “do our own thing” and still qualify for the gift? Or did the gift come with qualifications?....with conditions? And what if the conditions are not met? What then? How did God tell us through his Christ, what he expects of his worshippers?

If God gave Israel all those laws, and expected them to abide by all of them, not just some, what about the teachings of the Christ...would God expect less?

Can you think of some of the ways that people today could be breaking God’s rules for Christians?
Are there any rules? If so what would they be? And if you break them should there be consequences?

We all know how easy it is to call yourself a “Christian”.....but how many of those “Christians” can obey Jesus when it’s super hard to do so? One area that is worth a mention is marriage and divorce. Today some people are in and out of relationships like they are in a revolving door. These relationships are often intimate but marriage is never mentioned and if it is...it’s after the relationship has endured for a while. Is this OK now, because it holds no stigma in the world? Do Jesus words still apply?

Matt 19:3-9...
“3  And Pharisees came to him intent on testing him, and they asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of grounds?” 4  In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5  and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6  So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” 7  They said to him: “Why, then, did Moses direct giving a certificate of dismissal and divorcing her?” 8 He said to them: “Out of regard for your hard-heartedness, Moses made the concession to you of divorcing your wives,but that has not been the case from the beginning. 9  I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”

Does this still apply in the 21st century? Many “Christians” apparently think it doesn’t. Is there an excuse clause somewhere that exempts certain people? There are only two grounds to end a marriage, leaving the innocent or remaining mate to remarry....adultery or death.

What about being involved with the political system, when Jesus told us to be “no part of the world” as he was “no part of the world” (John 17:16; John 18:36).....so Jesus himself was the role model.....no involvement in politics at all, and therefore no blood on his hands, even by tacitly supporting a political movement intent on participating in bloodshed if that was deemed to be necessary. (Isa 1:15)

What about training to kill in the military? Any support for that in Jesus’ teachings? (Matt 5:43-44)
Can you “love your enemy” with a weapon? Do you tell them you love them before or after you kill them? And can there be any justified feelings of victory knowing that you just took the lives of untold innocent women and children with the press of a button? Can a Christian do that?

Paul also was very specific about what it means to be a Christian when feelings of retribution arise in us when we see injustice? (Rom 12:17:21) Vengeance belongs to God...not us. He will repay all injustices. Do we really believe that?

So, what does it mean to BE a “Christian” as opposed to calling yourself one, and then ignoring Christ’s teachings?

Who were assigned to oversee the congregations to make sure that no “leaven” crept in to corrupt the rest?

Paul answers....1 Cor 5:9-13....
“In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10  not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11  But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12  For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

Who were to do the “removing” of the corrupting influences? The appointed elders of the church...those in leadership positions......spiritually qualified men, as opposed to being theologically qualified, (an important difference). These men were entrusted with the responsibility to keep the corrupting influences out of the congregations. Anyone who thinks that is no longer necessary, only has to look at the divided churches of Christendom, who seem to tolerate all manner of wrong doing as if it doesn’t matter anymore......it matters to God.....it mattered to Christ....and it should matter to us.

As long as there is due process to ascertain the guilt or innocence of any individual, God will see to it that justice is served according to his standards, not ours.

 

[Berean]

I belong to Jesus, churches come and go, both physically and spiritually, but the Lord never does.