In regard to what Jesus said to Peter, it appears that the Apostle John's presumption is in error.
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@The Third One
Acts 12:12 / 25; 15:36--41; 2 Timothy 4:9-11 these scriptures speak of a John whose surname was Mark. I could find no direct authorship of whom exactly wrote the gospel of Mark.
I read the hoopla of the supposed gospel of Peter and it's questionable authenticity. I have also researched those supposed books not included in the KJB which I use, ie. Thomas,Enoch ect..
You are attributing man more power than God over the Word.
Do you not think we have exactly what is needed to have a correct discipleship in Christ ?
More especially those whom also have the Holy Ghost as at Pentecost!
I am a Pentecost believer, one who lives in the BOOK we have as our bible. I trust that God is mightier than all and will see that we receive from him as he will.
I trust no man, his interpretations, thoughts nor opinions. If I read or hear man speak, I test it against every word of God I have. As well I rely only on the Spirit as my teacher and guide.
I am sorry but my, our engagement within this post stops now. I do not know what you believe nor whom you serve, especially with the lack of answers to my questions.
May His light truly shine upon the Word by the Holy Ghost and enlighten your soul.
Acts 12:12 / 25; 15:36--41; 2 Timothy 4:9-11 these scriptures speak of a John whose surname was Mark. I could find no direct authorship of whom exactly wrote the gospel of Mark.
I read the hoopla of the supposed gospel of Peter and it's questionable authenticity. I have also researched those supposed books not included in the KJB which I use, ie. Thomas,Enoch ect..
You are attributing man more power than God over the Word.
Do you not think we have exactly what is needed to have a correct discipleship in Christ ?
More especially those whom also have the Holy Ghost as at Pentecost!
I am a Pentecost believer, one who lives in the BOOK we have as our bible. I trust that God is mightier than all and will see that we receive from him as he will.
I trust no man, his interpretations, thoughts nor opinions. If I read or hear man speak, I test it against every word of God I have. As well I rely only on the Spirit as my teacher and guide.
I am sorry but my, our engagement within this post stops now. I do not know what you believe nor whom you serve, especially with the lack of answers to my questions.
May His light truly shine upon the Word by the Holy Ghost and enlighten your soul.
Lol.....
Oh yes there comes our Catholic resident with his own dogma. Since you said you were catholic, I have expected him to come along for the ride.
Enjoy ! Truth will out !
truth is immutable and marches on! Christ is the truth! Jn 14:6
Peter or Peter’s confession? What will it be?
The Third One, theefaith replied to a thread you are watching at Christian Forums @ Christianity Board.
In regard to what Jesus said to Peter, it appears that the Apostle John's presumption is in error.
Is scripture wrong about Peter in Matt 16:18?
Wow, Theefaith.
One simple sentence.
A powerful question. Bravo.
As L3astAmOngManyB13ss3d said, “What a conundrum and where to start!” (After all, Christianity is stocked-full of conundrums.)
Let’s get it up in front of us and have a good look at it.
Here is how Matt 16:18 reads in the original Greek: “And I also say to you that you are Peter (a rock), and upon this rock I will build of me the gathering, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”
Here is my one-sentence, simple answer to your question:
The Scripture verse (as it is written above in the original Koine Greek) is absolutely, 100% correct.
Here is where the conundrum comes in. What is absolutely, 100% wrong, is the Box-Stuffed dogma we have ALL been taught about this verse. Starting with how this verse has even been presented to us.
As an aside (for now), there is a very important word that has been inserted into this verse by our Mature-Christian, Church-Taught Bible-Makers. That word is certainly NOT the Word of God. In fact, this word is a manmade insert.
The word is “church.”
I guess we can put that on the back burner for now. Your question about Matthew 16:18 is in regard to Peter.
What you might find interesting about Matthew 16:18 (along with Matthew 16:19 — back-to-back verses), these verses have been INSERTED into the Caesarea Philippi scene. Why these sayings of Jesus were placed HERE in Matthew’s Gospel, is a mystery. Their misplacement creates a problem with context, which, overall, lends to misunderstanding the gist of what Jesus is saying.
Keep in mind, the Caesarea Philippi scene is where Peter blurts out what is commonly known as, “The Confession of Peter” (Pete’s outburst that Jesus is “the Son of God” and “the Christ”). True as Peter’s “Confession” is, Jesus was adamant about these highly classified secrets (concerning his identity) remaining exactly that. Secret. At Jesus’ directive, these secrets were NEVER supposed to be revealed to the general public at large (at least not in THIS lifetime). “Tell NO ONE I am the Christ” was a very serious and absolute command Jesus laid upon his Apostles — which was, ultimately, totally ignored by his the remaining eleven Apostles (or, at the very least, put aside by them).
Once Paul became privileged to this info (the Apostles’ insider talk about Jesus being “the Christ” and “the Son of God”), what should have remained a secret became the battle cry of a brand new Religion; of which, no one can dispute, Paul was greatly instrumental in creating.
Jesus is “the Christ,” the Messiah, for whom we have all been waiting!
The Jews could have come to that conclusion all on their own, once they truly accepted what had been done for them on the cross. But, as Paul and the Apostles’ began publically escalating the talk about Jesus, being the Son of God... then... furthermore, actually “God Himself,” the Fundamental-Jews saw this claim of divinity for Jesus as an abomination and, in terms of their “Faith,” absolute heresy. Even the Gentiles at Antioch joined in on the side of “abomination” and “heresy.” As an insult, they referred to these followers of Jesus as “Christians.”
The name stuck. And, so... it’s been two thousand years. And, here we are.
Had just Peter or Paul (either ONE of them) truly accepted, unto his own self, 100%, what’s been done for us on the cross, and taught others NOT ONE MORE THING than to do the same (no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts”), in less than 200 years, the entire world would have been RANSOMED.
We’d be living in a world that had long since been PERFECTED-back to what humanity thought about ourselves in the Garden of Eden (before disaster stuck). It’s ALL-GOOD. A world where sin (and the mental disease that causes sin — The Knowledge of Good & Evil) was forgotten nothingness. ALL the sin of the world... taken AWAY.
Instead, we ended up with a convoluted Religion stocked-full of conundrums.
Had Paul and the Apostles stuck, 100%, to the Jesus-Concept, we would ALL be Living in the “Kingdom-Come” world right this moment. The first century Jews would have had no problem with the Jesus Concept in its pure form. (What’s not to like about it?) But, the Jews were ruined for the Jesus Concept. By Paul and the Apostles letting the “Christ” and “the Son of God” cat out of the bag (and the “this means that Jesus IS God” cat out of the bag), the Jews became deaf as stone to hearing anything about what’s been done for us on the cross — what’s been done for ALL OF US on the cross — including the Jews.
Imagine, what a statement it would have made to the world, had the first century Jews (the very descendants of the people to whom the Living God revealed Himself) instantly embraced and truly accepted what’s been done for us on the cross.
In regard to what Jesus said to Peter, it appears that the Apostle John's presumption is in error.
Is scripture wrong about Peter in Matt 16:18?
Wow, Theefaith.
One simple sentence.
A powerful question. Bravo.
As L3astAmOngManyB13ss3d said, “What a conundrum and where to start!” (After all, Christianity is stocked-full of conundrums.)
Let’s get it up in front of us and have a good look at it.
Here is how Matt 16:18 reads in the original Greek: “And I also say to you that you are Peter (a rock), and upon this rock I will build of me the gathering, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”
Here is my one-sentence, simple answer to your question:
The Scripture verse (as it is written above in the original Koine Greek) is absolutely, 100% correct.
Here is where the conundrum comes in. What is absolutely, 100% wrong, is the Box-Stuffed dogma we have ALL been taught about this verse. Starting with how this verse has even been presented to us.
As an aside (for now), there is a very important word that has been inserted into this verse by our Mature-Christian, Church-Taught Bible-Makers. That word is certainly NOT the Word of God. In fact, this word is a manmade insert.
The word is “church.”
I guess we can put that on the back burner for now. Your question about Matthew 16:18 is in regard to Peter.
What you might find interesting about Matthew 16:18 (along with Matthew 16:19 — back-to-back verses), these verses have been INSERTED into the Caesarea Philippi scene. Why these sayings of Jesus were placed HERE in Matthew’s Gospel, is a mystery. Their misplacement creates a problem with context, which, overall, lends to misunderstanding the gist of what Jesus is saying.
Keep in mind, the Caesarea Philippi scene is where Peter blurts out what is commonly known as, “The Confession of Peter” (Pete’s outburst that Jesus is “the Son of God” and “the Christ”). True as Peter’s “Confession” is, Jesus was adamant about these highly classified secrets (concerning his identity) remaining exactly that. Secret. At Jesus’ directive, these secrets were NEVER supposed to be revealed to the general public at large (at least not in THIS lifetime). “Tell NO ONE I am the Christ” was a very serious and absolute command Jesus laid upon his Apostles — which was, ultimately, totally ignored by his the remaining eleven Apostles (or, at the very least, put aside by them).
Once Paul became privileged to this info (the Apostles’ insider talk about Jesus being “the Christ” and “the Son of God”), what should have remained a secret became the battle cry of a brand new Religion; of which, no one can dispute, Paul was greatly instrumental in creating.
Jesus is “the Christ,” the Messiah, for whom we have all been waiting!
The Jews could have come to that conclusion all on their own, once they truly accepted what had been done for them on the cross. But, as Paul and the Apostles’ began publically escalating the talk about Jesus, being the Son of God... then... furthermore, actually “God Himself,” the Fundamental-Jews saw this claim of divinity for Jesus as an abomination and, in terms of their “Faith,” absolute heresy. Even the Gentiles at Antioch joined in on the side of “abomination” and “heresy.” As an insult, they referred to these followers of Jesus as “Christians.”
The name stuck. And, so... it’s been two thousand years. And, here we are.
Had just Peter or Paul (either ONE of them) truly accepted, unto his own self, 100%, what’s been done for us on the cross, and taught others NOT ONE MORE THING than to do the same (no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts”), in less than 200 years, the entire world would have been RANSOMED.
We’d be living in a world that had long since been PERFECTED-back to what humanity thought about ourselves in the Garden of Eden (before disaster stuck). It’s ALL-GOOD. A world where sin (and the mental disease that causes sin — The Knowledge of Good & Evil) was forgotten nothingness. ALL the sin of the world... taken AWAY.
Instead, we ended up with a convoluted Religion stocked-full of conundrums.
Had Paul and the Apostles stuck, 100%, to the Jesus-Concept, we would ALL be Living in the “Kingdom-Come” world right this moment. The first century Jews would have had no problem with the Jesus Concept in its pure form. (What’s not to like about it?) But, the Jews were ruined for the Jesus Concept. By Paul and the Apostles letting the “Christ” and “the Son of God” cat out of the bag (and the “this means that Jesus IS God” cat out of the bag), the Jews became deaf as stone to hearing anything about what’s been done for us on the cross — what’s been done for ALL OF US on the cross — including the Jews.
Imagine, what a statement it would have made to the world, had the first century Jews (the very descendants of the people to whom the Living God revealed Himself) instantly embraced and truly accepted what’s been done for us on the cross.
ALL any thinking man need do, to instantly embrace and truly accept what’s been done for us on the cross, is to UNDERSTAND it. Upon really understanding it, why would any man NOT truly accept it — for self-preservation alone? To boot, it’s FREE. Not one thing else is required. Simply TAKE your GET-OUT-OF-JAIL-FOR-FREE card.
As it is, the fruition of our worldwide RANSOM has been put back two-millennium (and counting...)
Of the remaining eleven Apostles, John was the least infected by Religion; he is responsible for bringing much of the pure Jesus Concept to us. Overall, John sounds more like a true acceptor than a Christian. But, alas, John was no exception to the ruin. Look how John starts his Gospel. Not by telling humanity the wonderful simplicity of what’s been done for us on the cross. Nope. John proclaims step by step why Jesus is GOD.
What does “Jesus is GOD” bring to the table? Only divisive confusion. To this day, no one fully understands the Godhead of the Trinity. The subject is pointless. There is not one thing humanity gains BY understanding it. That Jesus is “the Holy, unblemished Son of God” adds not one thing to what’s been done for us on the cross. Such rhetoric only adds more bologna skin to the Jesus was the PERFECT sacrifice dogma.
What’s been done for us on the cross is NOT about “Christ.” What’s been done for us on the cross is NOT a sacrifice. Jesus tells us exactly what’s been done for us on the cross.
So, why does the Church not preach it? Instead, what does the Church preach? (LOL) Well, that depends on the denomination. It’s satisfaction. No, it’s a substitution. It’s our justification. How does JESUS refer to what’s been done for us on the cross?
Jesus calls it “a RANSOM.”
And, my dear brothers and sisters, when all is said and done (and, within the Gospels, Jesus SAID all of what needs to be said and DID all of what needs to be done), a RANSOM simply needs to be TRULY ACCEPTED. By just one person.
That’s all it takes. Why do you suppose? Because one leads to few. Few leads to many. And, many leads to ALL. Indeed, Jesus says, “Upon (one) rock I will build of me the gathering.”
Only, Jesus does NOT say this at Caesarea Philippi. We can clearly determine that fact by piecing the entire Caesarea Philippi scene together from all four NT Gospels. The “rock” quote, along with the misconstrued line that Jesus passes on to Peter about “The keys of the Kingdom of Heaven,” are both thrown into the Caesarea Philippi scene. Among other things, this gives the reader the false impression that Jesus is delighted with Peter.
Yes, Jesus gives Simon the nickname, “Peter” which means “Rock.”
“Rock” is certainly good solid ground, upon which, for any one of us to build a “house.” However, should “the soil” be “rock”-infested, or worse, should the soil actually BE “rock” (ouch) that is certainly not the best soil (as one learns from Jesus’ Sowing parable) for the precious Wheat to grow.
Therefore, as much as us Peter-Fans (yes, I am definitely one of them) would love for “Rock” to be exclusively a term of endearment; in actuality, Jesus’ nickname for Simon is bittersweet. We talked about sticking one’s head up out of the Box and truly listening. If one listens close enough, disappointment is also there in our Savior’s voice. Jesus, putting a happy-face on what could have come much quicker; but, alas (due to the formidable efforts of Team Darkness upon our NT Bible heroes) was (obviously) not going to come about as quickly as Team Light would prefer it come. Jesus knew. Instead of Peter, feeding the sheep (oh, boy) in comes ANOTHER, feeding the birds.
As to, “Whatever you loosen on Earth will be loosened in Heaven,” the Church-Taught have turned this saying of Jesus into a joke — a cartoon-fairytale, sillier than “Easter eggs.” Right — as if Peter LITERALLY stands at the gates of Heaven, determining who can come in and who cannot. Okay to laugh, I guess. But, it really is a stupid joke.
Anyone who truly accepts what’s been done for us on the cross gains ALL the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Not only do you gain the key of knowing, 100%, that God judges you... NOT. One of the hugest keys you gain is judging yourself... NOT. It is impossible for you (a true acceptor) to judge yourself — for you have truly accepted that ALL of your sins (past, present and future) have been taken AWAY. This key extrapolates outward, quite nicely. It wouldn’t make any sense if it only applied inward. It HAS to apply outward as well. Meaning, you no longer HAVE any inclination to judge others. You are judged... NOT. So, naturally, you judge others... NOT.
This is what Jesus is talking about (at Matthew 16:19). Peter’s reaction to trespasses committed against him. In the same light as, “The measure you give is the exact same measure you get.” These ARE “the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.” Whatever you may have loosened (sent AWAY) upon the earth, it will have been loosened (to you) in the Heavens. And, whatever you may have bound upon Earth, it will have been bound (to you) in the Heavens. It becomes quite natural (and logical) for you to simply send AWAY every trespass ever committed against you.
As for the last part of Matt 16:18, it happens to be one of the most newsworthy statements found in the entire New Testament. Along with John 12:32, this is Good News for ALL of humanity. That “the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the gathering.”
Keep in mind, “the gathering” is Jesus’ gathering. And, Jesus’ gathering includes ALL of humanity, from Adam and onward. (John 12:32) Ultimately, we will ALL be drawn to Jesus and truly accept what’s been done for us on the cross, 100%, with “ifs,” “ands” or “buts.” How long will it take? The answer to that question is presently in our hands. The Holy Spirit has a saying, concerning the time-factor involved in this endeavor. “It can take two seconds, or it can take a million years.”
This is great news for humanity. Great News for ALL of us. Even for those of us, suffering in Hell.
For, ultimately, the gates of Hell will not prevail against any one of us.
As it is, the fruition of our worldwide RANSOM has been put back two-millennium (and counting...)
Of the remaining eleven Apostles, John was the least infected by Religion; he is responsible for bringing much of the pure Jesus Concept to us. Overall, John sounds more like a true acceptor than a Christian. But, alas, John was no exception to the ruin. Look how John starts his Gospel. Not by telling humanity the wonderful simplicity of what’s been done for us on the cross. Nope. John proclaims step by step why Jesus is GOD.
What does “Jesus is GOD” bring to the table? Only divisive confusion. To this day, no one fully understands the Godhead of the Trinity. The subject is pointless. There is not one thing humanity gains BY understanding it. That Jesus is “the Holy, unblemished Son of God” adds not one thing to what’s been done for us on the cross. Such rhetoric only adds more bologna skin to the Jesus was the PERFECT sacrifice dogma.
What’s been done for us on the cross is NOT about “Christ.” What’s been done for us on the cross is NOT a sacrifice. Jesus tells us exactly what’s been done for us on the cross.
So, why does the Church not preach it? Instead, what does the Church preach? (LOL) Well, that depends on the denomination. It’s satisfaction. No, it’s a substitution. It’s our justification. How does JESUS refer to what’s been done for us on the cross?
Jesus calls it “a RANSOM.”
And, my dear brothers and sisters, when all is said and done (and, within the Gospels, Jesus SAID all of what needs to be said and DID all of what needs to be done), a RANSOM simply needs to be TRULY ACCEPTED. By just one person.
That’s all it takes. Why do you suppose? Because one leads to few. Few leads to many. And, many leads to ALL. Indeed, Jesus says, “Upon (one) rock I will build of me the gathering.”
Only, Jesus does NOT say this at Caesarea Philippi. We can clearly determine that fact by piecing the entire Caesarea Philippi scene together from all four NT Gospels. The “rock” quote, along with the misconstrued line that Jesus passes on to Peter about “The keys of the Kingdom of Heaven,” are both thrown into the Caesarea Philippi scene. Among other things, this gives the reader the false impression that Jesus is delighted with Peter.
Yes, Jesus gives Simon the nickname, “Peter” which means “Rock.”
“Rock” is certainly good solid ground, upon which, for any one of us to build a “house.” However, should “the soil” be “rock”-infested, or worse, should the soil actually BE “rock” (ouch) that is certainly not the best soil (as one learns from Jesus’ Sowing parable) for the precious Wheat to grow.
Therefore, as much as us Peter-Fans (yes, I am definitely one of them) would love for “Rock” to be exclusively a term of endearment; in actuality, Jesus’ nickname for Simon is bittersweet. We talked about sticking one’s head up out of the Box and truly listening. If one listens close enough, disappointment is also there in our Savior’s voice. Jesus, putting a happy-face on what could have come much quicker; but, alas (due to the formidable efforts of Team Darkness upon our NT Bible heroes) was (obviously) not going to come about as quickly as Team Light would prefer it come. Jesus knew. Instead of Peter, feeding the sheep (oh, boy) in comes ANOTHER, feeding the birds.
As to, “Whatever you loosen on Earth will be loosened in Heaven,” the Church-Taught have turned this saying of Jesus into a joke — a cartoon-fairytale, sillier than “Easter eggs.” Right — as if Peter LITERALLY stands at the gates of Heaven, determining who can come in and who cannot. Okay to laugh, I guess. But, it really is a stupid joke.
Anyone who truly accepts what’s been done for us on the cross gains ALL the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Not only do you gain the key of knowing, 100%, that God judges you... NOT. One of the hugest keys you gain is judging yourself... NOT. It is impossible for you (a true acceptor) to judge yourself — for you have truly accepted that ALL of your sins (past, present and future) have been taken AWAY. This key extrapolates outward, quite nicely. It wouldn’t make any sense if it only applied inward. It HAS to apply outward as well. Meaning, you no longer HAVE any inclination to judge others. You are judged... NOT. So, naturally, you judge others... NOT.
This is what Jesus is talking about (at Matthew 16:19). Peter’s reaction to trespasses committed against him. In the same light as, “The measure you give is the exact same measure you get.” These ARE “the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.” Whatever you may have loosened (sent AWAY) upon the earth, it will have been loosened (to you) in the Heavens. And, whatever you may have bound upon Earth, it will have been bound (to you) in the Heavens. It becomes quite natural (and logical) for you to simply send AWAY every trespass ever committed against you.
As for the last part of Matt 16:18, it happens to be one of the most newsworthy statements found in the entire New Testament. Along with John 12:32, this is Good News for ALL of humanity. That “the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the gathering.”
Keep in mind, “the gathering” is Jesus’ gathering. And, Jesus’ gathering includes ALL of humanity, from Adam and onward. (John 12:32) Ultimately, we will ALL be drawn to Jesus and truly accept what’s been done for us on the cross, 100%, with “ifs,” “ands” or “buts.” How long will it take? The answer to that question is presently in our hands. The Holy Spirit has a saying, concerning the time-factor involved in this endeavor. “It can take two seconds, or it can take a million years.”
This is great news for humanity. Great News for ALL of us. Even for those of us, suffering in Hell.
For, ultimately, the gates of Hell will not prevail against any one of us.
sorry... (third paragraph from the end) ...100% with... NO... "ifs," "ands" or "buts." (lol) that's an important "NO" I left out.
Theefaith posts yet another good question: “Did Christ found the one true church?”
Since there was no such concept as “church” in Jesus’ day, he had to look into the future to see this thing you are talking about... you know... in order for him to take a good gander at the convoluted mess. Oh, he saw it. He referred to it as "thorns" in one parable and "tares" in another.
The spinning Church consists of over 43,000 separately organized Christian denominations. Anyone (even a messenger dispatched from the throne of Almighty God) sent to shout Truth into such a multi-divided tower of babble, would have better luck blowing smoke rings into an F-5 tornado.
Jesus would answer your question with a question of his own: “What is a ‘true’ church?”
There was a time one had to be a top tier Latin scholar merely to have the ability to accurately read the Gospels — Summa Cum Laude doctorate degree required, thank you. (For us common folk, that’s Latin for “With Highest Honor.”)
The earliest publically-printed edition of the Greek New Testament appeared in 1516 AD.
Let’s think about that for a moment. Fifteen-hundred exclusive years of “the Church” acquiring, policing and hording the Good News to itself. Fifteen-hundred exclusive years of “the Church” telling the world what the Good News is. Fifteen-hundred exclusive years of “the Church,” teaching the world what the Good News means.
Okay, in comes the Reformation. “The ‘true’ Church” becomes divided into "two 'true' Churches" of "The Faithful." With Gutenberg’s invention at hand, the power of mass-production is now the hands of “The Faithful” and “The Faithful” to promote Whatever-Suits-Us-Best for mass-consumption...
Including (but not limited to) the Church, itself, injecting into the Gospel... a starting place... for the Church, itself.
Yep. That is a fact.
You can tell your kids you heard it here first. On second thought, to preserve the family “belief” system, you may want to corkscrew your kids’ eyes out of their little sockets (to keep them from seeing this) and fill in their little ears with concrete. Or better yet, as L3astAmOngManyB13ss3d says, “Our engagement within this post stops right now!”
Harrumph! Harrumph! How DARE you attack our Faith!!? And now... our CHURCH!!!
The real question is, who can defend it? The Pharisees that Jesus pummeled suffered from the same malady. They were way too fearful to accept the Truth and completely unable to argue against it. Guess it’s much easier to leave the room. Happy trails.
Wait just a second, sir. We have ALL been strictly taught: JESUS started the Church.
Yep. That is exactly what we have ALL... been strictly taught. And, whom exactly was (and continues to be) our strict teacher? (Yikes!)
The Church.
Just ask any Church-Taught Christian. He or she will smile and gladly tell you, “Jesus started the Church! The Bible says so!”
Well, now, Brother and Sister Sunshine, that is actually quite impossible. In the first century, there was no such word as “Church” in any language. No such word. No such concept. No such idea. MAN had not... yet... invented “the Church.”
(As in capital “C”): “the Church.” Specifically, “The Christian ‘Church.’”
Nor in the first century had such a building nor manmade sub-sect been put together.
(As in little “c”): “a church.” For instance: “I suggest we meet at some ‘church.’”
“Which ‘church’? The Baptist ‘church’ or the Episcopal ‘church’?”
Any Christian apologist worth his weight in peaches will immediately direct our attention to Matthew 16:18, and purport, “Why sure it had! First century! Jesus said,”
Matthew 16:18 (KJV) “Upon this rock I will build my...”
His what?
The Koine Greek Word is ἐκκλησίαν (transliteration: ekklesia). The Word has one and only one meaning. “Gathering.”
To inject the limiting aspects of “Church” into Jesus’ proclamation (at Matthew 16:18) is an incorrect, purposefully diminishing and repulsively exclusionary translation.
The God’s-honest Truth? Turning “ekklesia” into “Church” is NOT a translation. It is an outright insertion. One could equally insert “exclusive country club” into Jesus’ statement. After ALL, an exclusive country club is a gathering.
Just as silly of a limitation... for the Savior of the world: “Upon this rock I will build my exclusive country club.”
Jesus had no such limitation (nor limitation of any kind) in mind.
No big deal. The Church came to OWN the Gospels. The Church-Pilots flying the airplane figured they could do with the Gospels as they pleased.
Open your eyes. Wake up. They HAD to figure out a way to connect their “authority” to Jesus.
So, they INSERTED the word “church” into Jesus’ mouth. No big deal.
Imagine had the NFL exclusive access to the Gospels and their translation for the first fifteen-hundred years AD. When “The Faithful” finally cranked out the King James Bible in 1611, I suppose it would be “no big deal” for the King’s Elizabethan English to tell us at Matthew 16:18, in raised red letters, no less (purportedly out of the mouth of Jesus)...
“Upon this rock I will build my National Football League.”
@The Third One ,
I like your personality and approach, easy, laid back. Methinks you are NOT a Peter though, but maybe of anothers character. Not that I see much in the other Apostles personalities except Peter, John, and Paul in their writings.
( whom I do include as an apostle)
I have sat in the rear seats a moment [ leaving the ride in God's hands] to see how you would receive other's approaches. You've certainly took on theefaith.......Lol, not that he will listen to you. His dogma is cemented from his wittle bitty toe to the last layer of derma
on his scalp......lol. I'm sure he is busy preparing his almighty DOGMA rebuttal with a vengeance!
As I have said, Peter and I are very close in impulsivity, harshness and hard-core serious about God's word!
You are coming along in the lines of churchanity that I have felt many years. Having been of Pentecostal faith, I learned much. After I backsid and left God's faith, I lived rioutious in SIN.
When the Spirit convicted me after 17 yrs in the SLOP of the world, I repented. After my conversion, ( as Peter was told by Jesus ), I have prayed and sought God to direct me unto another "church".
Instead he revealed unto me the " gathering"! He said where any 2 or 3 are gathered, I will be in the midst!
So far I have NOT been led to another " church", and man have I learned so much more in studying & prayer, alone with God !
So I've reversed my decision to not engage with you but rather to let God drive this bumpy ride with YOU at the wheel for a time.
Having seen some of your extent & intent, I am sure you will know any & every scriptural paraphrased reference I've given without myself writing down book, chapter, & verse.
To address someone's post put an @ in front of their full name as per their avatar. It will get their attention.
@The Third One
I like your personality and approach, easy, laid back. Methinks you are NOT a Peter though, but maybe of anothers character. Not that I see much in the other Apostles personalities except Peter, John, and Paul in their writings.
( whom I do include as an apostle)
I have sat in the rear seats a moment [ leaving the ride in God's hands] to see how you would receive other's approaches. You've certainly took on theefaith.......Lol, not that he will listen to you. His dogma is cemented from his wittle bitty toe to the last layer of derma
on his scalp......lol. I'm sure he is busy preparing his almighty DOGMA rebuttal with a vengeance!
As I have said, Peter and I are very close in impulsivity, harshness and hard-core serious about God's word!
You are coming along in the lines of churchanity that I have felt many years. Having been of Pentecostal faith, I learned much. After I backsid and left God's faith, I lived rioutious in SIN.
When the Spirit convicted me after 17 yrs in the SLOP of the world, I repented. After my conversion, ( as Peter was told by Jesus ), I have prayed and sought God to direct me unto another "church".
Instead he revealed unto me the " gathering"! He said where any 2 or 3 are gathered, I will be in the midst!
So far I have NOT been led to another " church", and man have I learned so much more in studying & prayer, alone with God !
So I've reversed my decision to not engage with you but rather to let God drive this bumpy ride with YOU at the wheel for a time.
Having seen some of your extent & intent, I am sure you will know any & every scriptural paraphrased reference I've given without myself writing down book, chapter, & verse.
To address someone's post put an @ in front of their full name as per their avatar. It will get their attention.
@The Third One
face2face
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In regard to my initial post about John’s mistaken presumption about Jesus referring to Peter’s death, @face2face SAYS:
“Saying something is wrong without evidence”
Hello? I think we are missing something here. Or perhaps you are. I stated clearly that it is impossible for Jesus to be talking about Peter’s crucifixion, because Jesus specifically tells Peter, that, in prelude to whatever awaits Peter, “ANOTHER will GIRD you and carry you where you do not want to go.”
Within the posts following, I explained to you (in great detail) specifically why no one is ever GIRDED, prior to being crucified by the Roman Empire.
What happened, face2face? Did you not bother to read ANYTHING past the initial post? Or perhaps your cat ate your seeing eye dog. I don’t mean to be off-putting; but, at this point, if you would seriously like to dispute or dismiss what I have taken dear time to bring to your attention, I expect a lot better response from you than one-sentence idiocy: “Saying something is wrong without evidence.” Oooo, what an apologetic bullet. That and (LOL) @Jack’s insistence that I am broadcasting to you guys from Kingdom Hall. Okay, I take my hat off to the both of you: TWO sentences of idiocy. Bravo.
As far as the unanimous consensus of this chat room is concerned, what I have provided thus far is incontrovertible evidence. For, after 5 days (and over 335 views) the evidence remains entirely undisputed.
As a bonus, the Holy Spirit reminds us that, to martyrdom is EXACTLY where Peter wanted to go. What this means has also been posted. However, since the Replacement Seeing Eye Dog Kennel is closed at this hour, I will be happy to guide you through.
Now, follow the bouncing ball… carefully.
Jesus tells Peter that “ANOTHER will take Peter where Peter DOES NOT want to go.” Peter more than welcomed crucifixion. So… it is… TO SOMEWHERE ELSE… Jesus is saying… Peter... DOES NOT... want to go.
To slavery… is where Jesus is saying… Peter does not want to go.
I can prove that to you, as well. But, it appears that you are too uninformed to make a proper comment and too scared to ask a proper question. That’s a pity. For, I would really love to actually hear from you.
“Saying something is wrong without evidence”
Hello? I think we are missing something here. Or perhaps you are. I stated clearly that it is impossible for Jesus to be talking about Peter’s crucifixion, because Jesus specifically tells Peter, that, in prelude to whatever awaits Peter, “ANOTHER will GIRD you and carry you where you do not want to go.”
Within the posts following, I explained to you (in great detail) specifically why no one is ever GIRDED, prior to being crucified by the Roman Empire.
What happened, face2face? Did you not bother to read ANYTHING past the initial post? Or perhaps your cat ate your seeing eye dog. I don’t mean to be off-putting; but, at this point, if you would seriously like to dispute or dismiss what I have taken dear time to bring to your attention, I expect a lot better response from you than one-sentence idiocy: “Saying something is wrong without evidence.” Oooo, what an apologetic bullet. That and (LOL) @Jack’s insistence that I am broadcasting to you guys from Kingdom Hall. Okay, I take my hat off to the both of you: TWO sentences of idiocy. Bravo.
As far as the unanimous consensus of this chat room is concerned, what I have provided thus far is incontrovertible evidence. For, after 5 days (and over 335 views) the evidence remains entirely undisputed.
As a bonus, the Holy Spirit reminds us that, to martyrdom is EXACTLY where Peter wanted to go. What this means has also been posted. However, since the Replacement Seeing Eye Dog Kennel is closed at this hour, I will be happy to guide you through.
Now, follow the bouncing ball… carefully.
Jesus tells Peter that “ANOTHER will take Peter where Peter DOES NOT want to go.” Peter more than welcomed crucifixion. So… it is… TO SOMEWHERE ELSE… Jesus is saying… Peter... DOES NOT... want to go.
To slavery… is where Jesus is saying… Peter does not want to go.
I can prove that to you, as well. But, it appears that you are too uninformed to make a proper comment and too scared to ask a proper question. That’s a pity. For, I would really love to actually hear from you.
Hello again, @L3astAmOngManyB13ss3d,
So glad to have you back. Thank you very much for sharing your personal testimony.
(At the very least, WE are gathering in his name.) And, so, I have decided to show YOU "the evidence." That in his farewell speech, Jesus is predicting what the future holds for Peter (and for ALL of us). That Peter would forget about the FREEDOM Jesus promised him; that Peter would willingly extend his hands (out in front of him) and be led off by ANOTHER… as a slave.
This may take four posts to get all this in (lol). So, please, bear with me.
No one in the room has yet to answer the most important question in these postings:
Have you truly accepted, 100%, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts,” that ALL of your sins have been taken AWAY by what’s been done for us on the cross?
I have asked that question to Church-Taught brothers and sisters for awhile, now. Amazingly, I have yet to find a Mature-Christian who can honestly answer “YES!” to the question.
Instead, this is what I keep hearing: Sin is an extremely powerful enemy. Simply gaining grace is not enough to defeat the power of the devil and the power of sin. To defeat the power of the devil, you need to put on “the armor of Paul.” To defeat the power of sin you need to continually confess and repent of your sin. AND... you need a moral awakening. AND... you need to become a slave to obedience and maturity. AND... you need to clean up your Life. AND... you need to go to church twice a week. AND... you need to serve Jesus as the Lord of your Life.
Instead of promoting the power of sin for the last two thousand years, what the Church should have been promoting is the pure power of what’s been done for us on the cross.
There is a huge difference between “grace” (even if you throw the word “amazing” in front of it) and PERFECT-Grace. To gain PERFECT-Grace, one must come to the ground-zero awakening that the power of what’s been done for us on the cross works only one way.
ALL by itself.
Now, granted, that is radical. But, then, again, the Jesus Concept is radical. We need something radical to forever be done with Sin and Guilt and Evil and Death. Perhaps it would help to know that the Living God of Light did not create these truly rotten things: Sin, Guilt, Evil and Death. Simply put, they do not come from EVERYTHING. They come from NOTHING.
Jesus’ Concept is ALL about sending these rotten things AWAY — forever. Back to NOTHING. However, the Concept only works when it is administered and accepted in its pure form.
Undiluted.
What’s been done for us on the cross works ALL by itself. Yes, even without church-going. Without “the armor of Paul.” Without “obedience.” Without “maturity.” Without “cleaning up our Lives.” Without “worship.” And, yes, even without “serving Jesus.” To say otherwise depletes the PERFECTION of what’s been done for ALL OF US on the cross, especially the “very worst” of us. He came to help the sick (not the healthy), and Jesus himself would be the first one to tell you, he did not come into this world for you to serve him.
Rather... he came to serve you.
By giving his Life for you.
As a RANSOM for you.
The Holy Spirit would be the first One to second the motion:
Romans 4:4-5: (Multiple Translation) “But don’t you earn Heaven because of ALL the good things you do? No. Your right to share in the Kingdom of Heaven is a gift; if you could earn it by being good, then it wouldn’t be FREE — but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. To even the worst man imaginable with no good works to his name, if ALL he relies upon is the blood of Christ alone to pay for his wickedness; such confidence, within itself, is counted by our Heavenly Father the exact same as PERFECT righteousness.”
The above combination-translation (ALL known translations congealed into one) is an excerpt from the first five and-a-half chapters of Paul’s letter to the Romans. In the first five and-a-half chapters of Paul’s letter to the Romans, the Holy Spirit is speaking fluidly through Paul, right up to Romans 6:14 — 6:14 being the last time Paul ever writes about PERFECT-Grace:
Romans 6:14 (KJV) “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the Law, but under Grace.”
This is The-Real-Deal in ALL its purity. 100% — with no ifs, ands or buts. This is PERFECT-Grace. At Romans 6:14, through Paul’s open pen, the Holy Spirit has just told us that PERFECT-Grace is more powerful than any and ALL sin. Even more powerful than the Law itself.
The God’s-Honest Truth? This is not Paul. This is a complete bypass around Paul.
This is ALL Holy Spirit coming through.
So much so that... suddenly... this whole “Grace-thing” does not set so well with our brother Paul and his DD degree (Doctor of Divinity). Oh, yes. Paul has a DD. On the wall. Framed in glass. Right behind his desk. The one he faithfully earned at PCC (Pharisee Community College).
And, so... throwing a “What then?” into the works, Dr. Paul asks his Pharisee-Inspired question: Romans 6:15 (Original Greek) “What then? May we sin, for we are not under the Law, but under Grace?”
Here is how Doctor Paul’s question reads in the Living Bible: “Does this mean that now we can go ahead and sin and not worry about it; for, our salvation does not depend on keeping the Law, but on receiving God’s Grace?”
According to the Holy Spirit, any person who truly accepts What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross is a person no longer under the dominion of Sin or the Law. Such a person is now and forevermore FREE under PERFECT-Grace. Such a person is “FREE-Indeed.”
Under PERFECT-Grace, it is impossible for such a person (a true acceptor) to commit sin. For, ALL of his sins — past, present and future — have been taken AWAY. This is the only answer to Paul’s question that works hand in hand with the Holy Spirit.
Instead, how does Paul answer his fateful question?
So glad to have you back. Thank you very much for sharing your personal testimony.
(At the very least, WE are gathering in his name.) And, so, I have decided to show YOU "the evidence." That in his farewell speech, Jesus is predicting what the future holds for Peter (and for ALL of us). That Peter would forget about the FREEDOM Jesus promised him; that Peter would willingly extend his hands (out in front of him) and be led off by ANOTHER… as a slave.
This may take four posts to get all this in (lol). So, please, bear with me.
No one in the room has yet to answer the most important question in these postings:
Have you truly accepted, 100%, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts,” that ALL of your sins have been taken AWAY by what’s been done for us on the cross?
I have asked that question to Church-Taught brothers and sisters for awhile, now. Amazingly, I have yet to find a Mature-Christian who can honestly answer “YES!” to the question.
Instead, this is what I keep hearing: Sin is an extremely powerful enemy. Simply gaining grace is not enough to defeat the power of the devil and the power of sin. To defeat the power of the devil, you need to put on “the armor of Paul.” To defeat the power of sin you need to continually confess and repent of your sin. AND... you need a moral awakening. AND... you need to become a slave to obedience and maturity. AND... you need to clean up your Life. AND... you need to go to church twice a week. AND... you need to serve Jesus as the Lord of your Life.
Instead of promoting the power of sin for the last two thousand years, what the Church should have been promoting is the pure power of what’s been done for us on the cross.
There is a huge difference between “grace” (even if you throw the word “amazing” in front of it) and PERFECT-Grace. To gain PERFECT-Grace, one must come to the ground-zero awakening that the power of what’s been done for us on the cross works only one way.
ALL by itself.
Now, granted, that is radical. But, then, again, the Jesus Concept is radical. We need something radical to forever be done with Sin and Guilt and Evil and Death. Perhaps it would help to know that the Living God of Light did not create these truly rotten things: Sin, Guilt, Evil and Death. Simply put, they do not come from EVERYTHING. They come from NOTHING.
Jesus’ Concept is ALL about sending these rotten things AWAY — forever. Back to NOTHING. However, the Concept only works when it is administered and accepted in its pure form.
Undiluted.
What’s been done for us on the cross works ALL by itself. Yes, even without church-going. Without “the armor of Paul.” Without “obedience.” Without “maturity.” Without “cleaning up our Lives.” Without “worship.” And, yes, even without “serving Jesus.” To say otherwise depletes the PERFECTION of what’s been done for ALL OF US on the cross, especially the “very worst” of us. He came to help the sick (not the healthy), and Jesus himself would be the first one to tell you, he did not come into this world for you to serve him.
Rather... he came to serve you.
By giving his Life for you.
As a RANSOM for you.
The Holy Spirit would be the first One to second the motion:
Romans 4:4-5: (Multiple Translation) “But don’t you earn Heaven because of ALL the good things you do? No. Your right to share in the Kingdom of Heaven is a gift; if you could earn it by being good, then it wouldn’t be FREE — but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. To even the worst man imaginable with no good works to his name, if ALL he relies upon is the blood of Christ alone to pay for his wickedness; such confidence, within itself, is counted by our Heavenly Father the exact same as PERFECT righteousness.”
The above combination-translation (ALL known translations congealed into one) is an excerpt from the first five and-a-half chapters of Paul’s letter to the Romans. In the first five and-a-half chapters of Paul’s letter to the Romans, the Holy Spirit is speaking fluidly through Paul, right up to Romans 6:14 — 6:14 being the last time Paul ever writes about PERFECT-Grace:
Romans 6:14 (KJV) “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the Law, but under Grace.”
This is The-Real-Deal in ALL its purity. 100% — with no ifs, ands or buts. This is PERFECT-Grace. At Romans 6:14, through Paul’s open pen, the Holy Spirit has just told us that PERFECT-Grace is more powerful than any and ALL sin. Even more powerful than the Law itself.
The God’s-Honest Truth? This is not Paul. This is a complete bypass around Paul.
This is ALL Holy Spirit coming through.
So much so that... suddenly... this whole “Grace-thing” does not set so well with our brother Paul and his DD degree (Doctor of Divinity). Oh, yes. Paul has a DD. On the wall. Framed in glass. Right behind his desk. The one he faithfully earned at PCC (Pharisee Community College).
And, so... throwing a “What then?” into the works, Dr. Paul asks his Pharisee-Inspired question: Romans 6:15 (Original Greek) “What then? May we sin, for we are not under the Law, but under Grace?”
Here is how Doctor Paul’s question reads in the Living Bible: “Does this mean that now we can go ahead and sin and not worry about it; for, our salvation does not depend on keeping the Law, but on receiving God’s Grace?”
According to the Holy Spirit, any person who truly accepts What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross is a person no longer under the dominion of Sin or the Law. Such a person is now and forevermore FREE under PERFECT-Grace. Such a person is “FREE-Indeed.”
Under PERFECT-Grace, it is impossible for such a person (a true acceptor) to commit sin. For, ALL of his sins — past, present and future — have been taken AWAY. This is the only answer to Paul’s question that works hand in hand with the Holy Spirit.
Instead, how does Paul answer his fateful question?
Disastrously. With yet an exclamation mark: “May it (“it” being FREEDOM-Indeed under God’s PERFECT-Grace) never be!”
According to this voice (so opposite, it is like suddenly hearing from another country) we have only two choices. We can be slaves; or, we can be slaves. Slaves of Sin. Or slaves of obedience to the Law:
Romans 6:16 (The Living Bible) “May it never be! Don’t you realize that you can choose your own Master to obey? You can choose Sin (with death) or else Obedience (with acquittal). The one to whom you offer yourself — he will take you and be your Master and you will be his slave.”
In case any of you have ever privately wondered, with Jesus being so PERFECT, and with Jesus being so clear about granting us rest for our souls (for “his yoke is easy and his burden is light”), how did Christianity ever get so imperfect? So splintered? So diversely-denominational? So outright difficult? So heavy in chains? So twisted? So judgmental? So contradicting? So badly messed up?
This is it — Romans 6:16.
This is precisely where the ball bearing falls into the camshaft of Christianity.
Plunk...
Crash!
I am carefully showing you this with the hope of inspiring you to ask a very important question about Paul’s answer for us at Romans 6:16. What happened to What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross?
I’ll pause for your answer. Take your time. Read 6:16 again. Here is how it reads in the King James Version:
Romans 6:16 (KJV) “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?”
Practically the same in the Catholic approved New American Bible:
Romans 6:16 (NAB) “Do you not know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?”
I will say it again. And, please, listen carefully this time. It is impossible for anyone to OBEY what’s been done for one on the cross. One must simply and truly ACCEPT what’s been done for one on the cross.
Even the drunk passengers on board this airplane must be sensing... something terribly wrong has just happened: “Now going... opposite direction.”
We are going backwards. Paul is preaching Old-School to us here at Romans 6:16. Old-School, meaning, “the way unto righteousness” before we had the blessing of simply and truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross. Right before our eyes, the pure power of what’s been done for us on the cross has Diabolically dissolved into two choices. We can “obey sin” which leads to death... or, we can “obey obedience” which (according to Paul) leads to righteousness. Indeed... this is an entirely different direction than the direction Paul was flying us during the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans.
The Truth? Most of us are still dead-asleep. Perhaps — just perhaps, mind you — a few more of us, this very instant, may have just been startled awake. The G-force is unbearable and pushing us into our seats. The conscious passengers are now screaming:
My God! Father in Heaven help us! We ARE going backwards. And, upside down. We are going down! Tail first and inverted!
As for the two (and only two) choices Paul gives us at 6:16 as his remedy/answer to his problem/question, why isn’t one of our choices... simply... What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross?
Taking everything into consideration that Paul writes before Romans 6:16 and everything he writes after, there is only one possible answer. What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross has just become Paul’s dilemma — a most serious dilemma to his established “belief” system. A theological dilemma that rushes blood to his theological face, causing his theological head to spin. If part of our theological “Faith” is that Paul had a conversion on the road to Damascus, Paul has just had another one at mile marker 6:16 on the Romans Highway.
Can we, as Mature-Christians, handle the God’s-honest Truth? (Brace yourself, for I will say it again for those who missed it the first time
Paul never stopped being what he is, and the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans is a Holy Spirit-Inspired “miracle.” What Paul never stopped being is a Pharisee-Extremist. What he became in Christianity is not much different.
On the other hand, what the Holy Spirit has never stopped being is the absolute God’s Honest Truth. The Holy Spirit cannot lie. The Holy Spirit cannot contradict. Would you be brave enough to do one thing for your Holy Spirit?
According to this voice (so opposite, it is like suddenly hearing from another country) we have only two choices. We can be slaves; or, we can be slaves. Slaves of Sin. Or slaves of obedience to the Law:
Romans 6:16 (The Living Bible) “May it never be! Don’t you realize that you can choose your own Master to obey? You can choose Sin (with death) or else Obedience (with acquittal). The one to whom you offer yourself — he will take you and be your Master and you will be his slave.”
In case any of you have ever privately wondered, with Jesus being so PERFECT, and with Jesus being so clear about granting us rest for our souls (for “his yoke is easy and his burden is light”), how did Christianity ever get so imperfect? So splintered? So diversely-denominational? So outright difficult? So heavy in chains? So twisted? So judgmental? So contradicting? So badly messed up?
This is it — Romans 6:16.
This is precisely where the ball bearing falls into the camshaft of Christianity.
Plunk...
Crash!
I am carefully showing you this with the hope of inspiring you to ask a very important question about Paul’s answer for us at Romans 6:16. What happened to What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross?
I’ll pause for your answer. Take your time. Read 6:16 again. Here is how it reads in the King James Version:
Romans 6:16 (KJV) “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?”
Practically the same in the Catholic approved New American Bible:
Romans 6:16 (NAB) “Do you not know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?”
I will say it again. And, please, listen carefully this time. It is impossible for anyone to OBEY what’s been done for one on the cross. One must simply and truly ACCEPT what’s been done for one on the cross.
Even the drunk passengers on board this airplane must be sensing... something terribly wrong has just happened: “Now going... opposite direction.”
We are going backwards. Paul is preaching Old-School to us here at Romans 6:16. Old-School, meaning, “the way unto righteousness” before we had the blessing of simply and truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross. Right before our eyes, the pure power of what’s been done for us on the cross has Diabolically dissolved into two choices. We can “obey sin” which leads to death... or, we can “obey obedience” which (according to Paul) leads to righteousness. Indeed... this is an entirely different direction than the direction Paul was flying us during the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans.
The Truth? Most of us are still dead-asleep. Perhaps — just perhaps, mind you — a few more of us, this very instant, may have just been startled awake. The G-force is unbearable and pushing us into our seats. The conscious passengers are now screaming:
My God! Father in Heaven help us! We ARE going backwards. And, upside down. We are going down! Tail first and inverted!
As for the two (and only two) choices Paul gives us at 6:16 as his remedy/answer to his problem/question, why isn’t one of our choices... simply... What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross?
Taking everything into consideration that Paul writes before Romans 6:16 and everything he writes after, there is only one possible answer. What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross has just become Paul’s dilemma — a most serious dilemma to his established “belief” system. A theological dilemma that rushes blood to his theological face, causing his theological head to spin. If part of our theological “Faith” is that Paul had a conversion on the road to Damascus, Paul has just had another one at mile marker 6:16 on the Romans Highway.
Can we, as Mature-Christians, handle the God’s-honest Truth? (Brace yourself, for I will say it again for those who missed it the first time
Paul never stopped being what he is, and the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans is a Holy Spirit-Inspired “miracle.” What Paul never stopped being is a Pharisee-Extremist. What he became in Christianity is not much different. On the other hand, what the Holy Spirit has never stopped being is the absolute God’s Honest Truth. The Holy Spirit cannot lie. The Holy Spirit cannot contradict. Would you be brave enough to do one thing for your Holy Spirit?
Wake up.
I know. It is tough to do so when your first reaction (pushed into your seat such as you are) is to close your eyes and ears and pretend this is not happening. Keep your eyes and ears focused on the Holy Spirit:
Romans 6:14 (Original Greek) “Sin will not rule over you! For you are not under the Law, but under Grace.”
The Holy Spirit has just defined Grace (PERFECT-Grace) as being more powerful than any and ALL sin (past-sin, present-sin, future-sin, intentional-sin, non-intentional-sin, venial-sin, mortal-sin, repetitive-sin) and more powerful than the Law, itself.
In the middle of Romans, Chapter Six, at last (and unfortunately), this is... now... a big problem for our brother Paul. Why? Because (along with even darker voices) Paul still has “the Pharisees” in him. Yes, you can take the man out of the Pharisees, but not the Pharisees out of the man. To a Pharisee, it is ALL about THE LAW. A Pharisee loses his mind to THE LAW (exactly why the extremists among them were livid with murderous rage over Jesus healing people on the Sabbath). For the sake of Gentile Christian Evangelism, Paul will loosen his belt here and there for “the greater good,” but, SIN, itself, and how it relates to THE LAW, is a whole other matter. Paul was strictly taught, when it comes to SIN, nothing is more powerful than THE LAW.
And, yet, specifically, the Holy Spirit has just told us (through Paul’s open pen, no less) that PERFECT-Grace is more powerful than the Law.
The way Pharisee-Paul sees it, what’s been done for us on the cross has just become a religious impasse. A slap-in-the-face to ALL theological reason. And, so... Paul takes it upon himself to fix the cross. Instead of bravely upholding the previous five and-a-half chapters of Romans, Paul fearfully throws the gears into reverse.
Fearfully?
Absolutely. Paul is appalled, dismayed and absolutely horror-stricken by the idea of PERFECT-Grace having more power than the Law:
This “Grace thing” has got to be tempered… with something… or people are going to think they can just do whatever they want and have a license to sin. Cross-or-no-cross, you best be “obeying obedience!”
Obeying obedience. Hello? Paul? Did we hear you correctly?
Yes. You heard Paul as clear as church bells ringing. Paul did not stutter.
Here is how Paul’s reversal reads in the New International Version:
Romans 6:16 (NIV) “Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you OBEY — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to OBEDIENCE, which leads to righteousness?
An interesting choice of words. We are to “obey…obedience.”
Clever nonsense. Carefully consider why it is nonsense. Although, we can obey something, we certainly cannot obey “obedience” itself. The SOMETHING (Paul insists) we ARE to obey is a very specific three-letter word that Paul does not want to use... here... to describe “our Master” — the only Master (of the two Masters he offers us) that we (as obedient slaves) can possibly choose to obediently obey (other than obeying Master Sin, of course). The Law.
The point?
“Obeying…obedience” is Paul’s clever way of saying (without actually saying it): You need to be obeying... the Law.
Why such hush-hush cleverness? Paul HAS be very clever at saying it... here... at 6:16. Why? Because, the Holy Spirit has just told us (at 6:14, a mere two verses-ago) that if we truly accept for ourselves what’s been done for us on the cross, we are no longer under the Law. We are under PERFECT-Grace.
Make no mistake. At Romans 6:16, Paul is back to preaching the Gospel of the Pharisees: a man can choose a Life of sin... or... a man can choose a Life of righteousness. SELF-EARNED righteousness.
Specifically, righteousness SELF-EARNED through “obedience” to the Law.
On the turn of a dime, Paul has done a complete one-eighty in response to the singularity of our “salvation” (our RANSOM) exclaimed by the Holy Spirit in the preceding five and-a-half chapters of Romans — the completeness and PERFECTION of simply and truly accepting our CROSS-EARNED righteousness.
That is an absolute fact.
For, at this point, whenever the Holy Spirit makes it abundantly clear to Paul that our righteousness is earned ONLY by truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross, then Paul is back to his same poorly-posed, poorly-worded, faithless and fearful question:
Romans 6:15 (Original Greek) “What then? May we sin, for we are not under the Law, but under Grace?”
There is no “apologetic” answer for the catastrophic plane crash at Romans 6:16.
What does THAT mean?
It means there is no viable way for even the most astute Christian to make Romans 6:16 work hand-in-hand with the God’s-honest Truth. The optimal question remains. Can a Mature-Christian handle the God’s-honest Truth? (Again, brace yourself) The very thing keeping Paul’s airplane aloft during the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans IS the pure power of what’s been done for us on the cross. At Romans 6:16, the pure power of what’s been done for us on cross has just gone bye-bye. What’s been done for us on the cross is no longer on the airplane. Read 6:16 again and again and again if you must.
Two choices. Sin. Or obedience to the Law.
Let us be gracious. Even though What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross has been completely thrown out the window at Romans 6:16; as good Christians, we must force ourselves to “believe” that, certainly, the cross must still be in the back of Paul’s mind somewhere.
It is.
Paul is determined to IMPROVE upon what’s been done for us on the cross. So... according to Paul, IN ADDITION to “believing” in “the cross” (whatever grand ecclesiastical mystery “‘believing’ in ‘the cross’” is supposed to mean) we must become obedient slaves to the Law.
And, oh boy. That is merely the first addition. The first add-on. The first “AND” to simply and truly accepting What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross. There are many more to follow. Not to mention a snoot-full of “IFS” and “BUTS.”
After Romans 6:16 (and onward), the writing is mostly Paul. Again, yes, there are plenty of bright spots where the Holy Spirit pushes through. However, for the most part, what follows 6:16 is a Paul manifesto. The Philosophy of a Pharisee-Extremist Christian.
Should make more sense what I said earlier. Along with Paul’s disastrous reversal at Romans 6:16, the Church has inherited fifty truckloads of “ifs,” “ands” and “buts.” As Christians, we inherit them too, as part of our “Faith.” We are taught to “believe” in ALL of them. Any one of which, by itself (if bought-into) prevents the “believer” from truly accepting — 100%, with no ifs, ands or buts — what’s been done for us on the cross.
Jesus’ eleven hand-picked remaining Apostles were no exception. They bought into Paul’s cross-fixing as well.
And, this, my dear friends (the plane crash) is exactly what Jesus was warning Peter about.
Thank you for listening.
I know. It is tough to do so when your first reaction (pushed into your seat such as you are) is to close your eyes and ears and pretend this is not happening. Keep your eyes and ears focused on the Holy Spirit:
Romans 6:14 (Original Greek) “Sin will not rule over you! For you are not under the Law, but under Grace.”
The Holy Spirit has just defined Grace (PERFECT-Grace) as being more powerful than any and ALL sin (past-sin, present-sin, future-sin, intentional-sin, non-intentional-sin, venial-sin, mortal-sin, repetitive-sin) and more powerful than the Law, itself.
In the middle of Romans, Chapter Six, at last (and unfortunately), this is... now... a big problem for our brother Paul. Why? Because (along with even darker voices) Paul still has “the Pharisees” in him. Yes, you can take the man out of the Pharisees, but not the Pharisees out of the man. To a Pharisee, it is ALL about THE LAW. A Pharisee loses his mind to THE LAW (exactly why the extremists among them were livid with murderous rage over Jesus healing people on the Sabbath). For the sake of Gentile Christian Evangelism, Paul will loosen his belt here and there for “the greater good,” but, SIN, itself, and how it relates to THE LAW, is a whole other matter. Paul was strictly taught, when it comes to SIN, nothing is more powerful than THE LAW.
And, yet, specifically, the Holy Spirit has just told us (through Paul’s open pen, no less) that PERFECT-Grace is more powerful than the Law.
The way Pharisee-Paul sees it, what’s been done for us on the cross has just become a religious impasse. A slap-in-the-face to ALL theological reason. And, so... Paul takes it upon himself to fix the cross. Instead of bravely upholding the previous five and-a-half chapters of Romans, Paul fearfully throws the gears into reverse.
Fearfully?
Absolutely. Paul is appalled, dismayed and absolutely horror-stricken by the idea of PERFECT-Grace having more power than the Law:
This “Grace thing” has got to be tempered… with something… or people are going to think they can just do whatever they want and have a license to sin. Cross-or-no-cross, you best be “obeying obedience!”
Obeying obedience. Hello? Paul? Did we hear you correctly?
Yes. You heard Paul as clear as church bells ringing. Paul did not stutter.
Here is how Paul’s reversal reads in the New International Version:
Romans 6:16 (NIV) “Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you OBEY — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to OBEDIENCE, which leads to righteousness?
An interesting choice of words. We are to “obey…obedience.”
Clever nonsense. Carefully consider why it is nonsense. Although, we can obey something, we certainly cannot obey “obedience” itself. The SOMETHING (Paul insists) we ARE to obey is a very specific three-letter word that Paul does not want to use... here... to describe “our Master” — the only Master (of the two Masters he offers us) that we (as obedient slaves) can possibly choose to obediently obey (other than obeying Master Sin, of course). The Law.
The point?
“Obeying…obedience” is Paul’s clever way of saying (without actually saying it): You need to be obeying... the Law.
Why such hush-hush cleverness? Paul HAS be very clever at saying it... here... at 6:16. Why? Because, the Holy Spirit has just told us (at 6:14, a mere two verses-ago) that if we truly accept for ourselves what’s been done for us on the cross, we are no longer under the Law. We are under PERFECT-Grace.
Make no mistake. At Romans 6:16, Paul is back to preaching the Gospel of the Pharisees: a man can choose a Life of sin... or... a man can choose a Life of righteousness. SELF-EARNED righteousness.
Specifically, righteousness SELF-EARNED through “obedience” to the Law.
On the turn of a dime, Paul has done a complete one-eighty in response to the singularity of our “salvation” (our RANSOM) exclaimed by the Holy Spirit in the preceding five and-a-half chapters of Romans — the completeness and PERFECTION of simply and truly accepting our CROSS-EARNED righteousness.
That is an absolute fact.
For, at this point, whenever the Holy Spirit makes it abundantly clear to Paul that our righteousness is earned ONLY by truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross, then Paul is back to his same poorly-posed, poorly-worded, faithless and fearful question:
Romans 6:15 (Original Greek) “What then? May we sin, for we are not under the Law, but under Grace?”
There is no “apologetic” answer for the catastrophic plane crash at Romans 6:16.
What does THAT mean?
It means there is no viable way for even the most astute Christian to make Romans 6:16 work hand-in-hand with the God’s-honest Truth. The optimal question remains. Can a Mature-Christian handle the God’s-honest Truth? (Again, brace yourself) The very thing keeping Paul’s airplane aloft during the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans IS the pure power of what’s been done for us on the cross. At Romans 6:16, the pure power of what’s been done for us on cross has just gone bye-bye. What’s been done for us on the cross is no longer on the airplane. Read 6:16 again and again and again if you must.
Two choices. Sin. Or obedience to the Law.
Let us be gracious. Even though What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross has been completely thrown out the window at Romans 6:16; as good Christians, we must force ourselves to “believe” that, certainly, the cross must still be in the back of Paul’s mind somewhere.
It is.
Paul is determined to IMPROVE upon what’s been done for us on the cross. So... according to Paul, IN ADDITION to “believing” in “the cross” (whatever grand ecclesiastical mystery “‘believing’ in ‘the cross’” is supposed to mean) we must become obedient slaves to the Law.
And, oh boy. That is merely the first addition. The first add-on. The first “AND” to simply and truly accepting What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross. There are many more to follow. Not to mention a snoot-full of “IFS” and “BUTS.”
After Romans 6:16 (and onward), the writing is mostly Paul. Again, yes, there are plenty of bright spots where the Holy Spirit pushes through. However, for the most part, what follows 6:16 is a Paul manifesto. The Philosophy of a Pharisee-Extremist Christian.
Should make more sense what I said earlier. Along with Paul’s disastrous reversal at Romans 6:16, the Church has inherited fifty truckloads of “ifs,” “ands” and “buts.” As Christians, we inherit them too, as part of our “Faith.” We are taught to “believe” in ALL of them. Any one of which, by itself (if bought-into) prevents the “believer” from truly accepting — 100%, with no ifs, ands or buts — what’s been done for us on the cross.
Jesus’ eleven hand-picked remaining Apostles were no exception. They bought into Paul’s cross-fixing as well.
And, this, my dear friends (the plane crash) is exactly what Jesus was warning Peter about.
Thank you for listening.
face2face
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Refreshing response!
I'm not certain what you are making of this word "Gird" but Jesus is saying to Peter "you once girded yourself" to mean Peter tried to demonstrate his zeal by impetuous acts e.g like walking on Water in Matthew 14:28 "girding on his fishers coats" in John 21:7
Also take note of Peter’s comment in 1 Peter 5:5. Elder to younger - “be clothed with humility"
It's all about Peter surrendering his will in humility to events which will be out of his control. Keep in mind Peter was not good at surrendering! Jesus knew his will would need to be broken just as Christ's would be!
In relation to who would gird him toward his death, it would obviously be the direction of his Lord and none other.
Same language as used by Christ in John 12:33; John 18:32.
Peter was now fully aware how he would die compare 2 Peter 1:14
I think you need to understand Peter's character flaws and his struggle being an alpha male; natural born leader to comprehend why Jesus was instruction him this way.
Anyway, regardless of your comment about Peter being prepared to die which is actually false because he denied his Lord three times....the final words "follow me" John 21:19 are stronger than you might be prepared to admit. He had been following his Lord for 3 1/2 years but the following Jesus was now seeking from Peter was on a whole new level - he had to follow in Jesus' own example!
“Follow Me” is Peter follow his Lord even to death, as he had been told before Matthew 16:24.
Hope that helps.
F2F
p.s thanks for the gentle rebuke
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Phoneman777
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Phoneman777
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