In regard to what Jesus said to Peter, it appears that the Apostle John's presumption is in error.

[The Third One]

In his "Goodbye Speech" to his disciples, Jesus said to Peter:

John 21:18 (Original Greek) “Truly, truly I say to you. When you were young, you tied a strap around yourself and walked where you wanted to walk. But when you are old, you will extend your hands and another will gird you, and carry you where you do not want to go.”

John assumed that Jesus was referring to Peter's death by crucifixion. John 21:19 (KJV): “Signifying by what death Peter should glorify God.”

John presumption is simply wrong. It is impossible that Jesus was referring in any way to Peter's crucifixion.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Well, off to a rocky start here.
Trying to annull or say the Word is incorrect in John's writing the words he wrote.
An intimate disciple of Jesus, a man whom loved and was loved by Jesus, John. Whom was trustworthy enough to be given the Revelation of Christ.

So please what is your assumption and why is John wrong ?

 

[The Third One]

I am glad we are initially in agreement here that ANY answer from the pool of humanity (as to what Jesus means by this) is an assumption. And, yes, I do have an alternative assumption that goes hand-in-hand with the entirety what Jesus is telling Peter in his last moments with these guys. No point in divulging my assumption at this point, unless we can find real error in the presumption that we have all presumed (courtesy of John's initial assumption) for the last two-thousand years. So, to your second question: "Why is John wrong?"

Everything should be tested by the Holy Spirit. Including what we call "the Bible." The Holy Spirit will confirm whether something is actually Inspired. "The Word" must prove true by every angle; otherwise it is simply commentary. Considering humanity's part in bring us "the Bible" as we know it, I suggest it is pure folly to put the Bible up on some holy pedestal above the Holy Spirit. Well... "the Holy Spirit SAID all this," so they teach. I am fine with that.. as long as the Holy Spirit confirms it.

John is like a human tape recorder when it comes to his testimony, proclaiming what Jesus actually said (and we can all be grateful for that); however, John's commentary is not always in tip-top shape. In this case, I have a Holy-Spirit-Inspired problem with John's assertion. His assertion that his assumption "signifies" what Jesus is saying to Peter. The word "signifying" is a big leap, even for (as you accurately point out) "an intimate disciple of Jesus, a man whom loved and was loved by Jesus." John is saying that he has deduced THE correct explanation. When, all is said and done (and no matter how much we are taught to believe in every sentence of Scripture and John's closeness to Jesus), John is flat out guessing what Jesus means. This does not mean that the Scriptures are wrong. Or that John's Gospel is wrong (quite the contrary). It simply means that John is making an educated guess as to what Jesus meant when Jesus said this very specific statement to Peter. And, in my humble (yet considered) opinion, John's assumption is incorrect.

The first problem with John's assumption is that Jesus actually says, "ANOTHER WILL GIRD YOU." Carefully examine the exact Words Jesus says to Peter:

“…you will extend your hands and ANOTHER WILL GIRD YOU and carry you where you do not want to go.”

“ANOTHER WILL GIRD YOU.” These Words completely rule out the assumption that Jesus is referring to Peter’s crucifixion.

In Peter and Jesus’ day, to “gird” one’s self was a specific ordeal accomplished by completely transforming a tunic. Impossible during Roman crucifixion. No party to any Roman execution would ever “gird” anyone prior to being crucified.

I know, we've all seen the paintings and statues of Jesus being crucified, wearing a tunic that has been girded around his loins. Christian folklore. A picture is worth a thousand words, only no one had a cell phone (back then) to take a snap shot of the Reality.

In a desperate attempt to remove “the awful mental picture” of Jesus hanging naked, scholarly prudes contended that the Romans would have been kind enough to consider a man’s Religion and execute a Jew with his privates covered. Wishful nonsense and prudish hypocrisy. Prudish hypocrisy, in that, it is okay to whip Jesus to shreds, crown him with thorns and nail him to a cross, BUT... the Reality of him hanging naked on a Roman cross is “the awful mental picture.” Wishful nonsense, in that, Roman soldiers assigned to crucifixion details were not known to observe kindnesses and niceties. To the contrary. They exacted cruelty and torture. Kind-niceties? The chief Jews went to Pilate and requested that the multilingual sign atop the cross of Jesus be changed to: He said he was THE KING OF THE JEWS. Pilate kindly advised them that the sign would remain as it was written. That’s about as kind as it gets with Romans granting Jewish religious requests. Pilate could have had their heads cut off for bothering him further with the matter. Take notice, there was no Jewish rebuttal: “Then, at least put some clothes on him!” It never happened. In ALL forms of Roman crucifixion, the tunic is removed, leaving the victim to hang totally naked.

Hold on. Don’t turn AWAY yet. Keep looking at the Truth. Back in the day, why DID a man “gird up his tunic” or “gird up his loins”? The answer to this question is also quite specific. There is only one reason. In preparation for hard physical labor.

The tunic, as it was commonly worn, would not allow a man to do heavy labor, necessitating the “girding of the loins.” First, the tunic is hoisted up so that ALL the fabric is pulled above the knees to allow mobility. Next, ALL the extra material is gathered up in front (so that the back of the tunic fits snug against the backside) then pulled underneath and between the legs to the rear, like a diaper. Then, half of the material is gathered into each hand, brought back and around to the front and, then (finally) the two handfuls of material are tied together.

Look closer, Sherlock. Get your magnifying glass out. “ANOTHER will gird you.” Again, this is very specific. A man girded by “another”? There is only one reason “ANOTHER will gird you,” and one reason alone.

Can you "guess" the correct answer?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Lol oh blather

Matthew 27 : 28-34 ( cxt)
V31. And after they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own rainment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
Matthew 27:32-38 ( cxt )
V35. And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Regardless of YOUR OWN ASSUMPTIONS, we have zero account of Peter's death in scripture. However we do have an account of Jesus's crucifixion.

I know there have been many historian whom have documented historical facts from those time periods and through archaeological studies have framed life in certain ages.

It may be an interesting thought or find for you but holds no scriptural value to myself. Death is ugly by any means or age but his death was glorious in the believers eyes for it represents our salvation ! Remember John was at the crucixication site of Jesus with Mary. He had a first hand account.

Furthermore they re-dressed Jesus to lead him from the hall of mocking soldiers to the place of the skull..

Peter most likely as a bold disciple whom loved Jesus was also dressed and carried to his appointed place.

It's interesting that instead of picking up the 3 times question, and answers and rebuttal you chose instead to thwart Johns gospel of Jesus.

You are in for a really bumpy ride.
Ciao

 

[The Third One]

How about we agree to stick with the Truth? Can we agree to that? Should we agree to do so, you and I — all of us — may just learn something.

You say, “we have zero account of Peter's death in scripture.” By “zero account,” are you writing off what John says about Peter’s death in the Scripture we are now discussing? Sure, Peter’s “upside-down request” is found nowhere in Inspired Scripture. Yet, keep in mind, it is John who reports about "Peter's glorifying death" along with what Jesus says to Peter in Jesus’ farewell speech.

“You will extend your hands.”

That is precisely what brings John to his incorrect assumption that Jesus is referring to Peter’s “death” by crucifixion. Correct me if I am jumping to conclusions here, but John, being the last living apostle, seems to be well aware that Peter died. By all Christian accounts, Peter was crucified to death. Precisely why John puts one and one together and presumes that Jesus is referring to Peter’s crucifixion.

The early ‘believers” missed a lot more in Jesus’ “Goodbye Speech to the Apostles” by presuming what Jesus means.

“You will extend your hands.”

You know “good and well” what we are ALL taught to “believe” Jesus means by this: One hand “extended” out to the Peter’s left, the other out to Peter’s right. As in crucifixion.

For, this is exactly what the first “believers” “believed” (actually, what they assumed). And, so... the Church continues to assume the same. The Church assumes (as John first assumed): Surely, Jesus must have said ALL this to Peter in reference to the way Peter would die a martyr’s death. (Good always to try to see “the cross.”) Unfortunately, the cross of Peter... strike that, the upside down cross of Peter has blinded everyone to the visual picture Jesus is actually expressing here.

Have you even read this part of John’s Gospel that we are currently discussing?

Has it never startled you, how grim and disappointed Jesus was with Peter, during this, his leaving “the feeding of the sheep” in Peter’s hands? Have you never wondered why Jesus questioned Peter’s loyalty for yet a third time, actually — LITERALLY — questioning if Peter even still had any love for him? Have you never asked the Holy Spirit about this? Brother or Sister? Do you even understand? This was not a happy goodbye.

Jesus spent three years with Peter giving him solid roots to “feed the sheep.” And, yet, ANOTHER (who had NOT spent three years with Jesus) stepped in. Took over. And, did what? HE fed the sheep. Gosh. Who could that have been? Trust me, you know him well.

As for Jesus’ “garments”? It is hard to imagine the soldiers finding the need to “part” his garments and “cast lots” for them... if Jesus were actually still wearing them on the cross. Your citing of Gospel Scripture (as well as the “many historians who have documented historical facts from those time periods and through archaeological studies”) prove my point, not yours. Jesus was crucified by the Roman government as naked as the day he came into this world. So was Peter. The Roman government did NOT crucify people up on a hill... with their clothes on. The Romans considered “clothes-off” an integral deterrent against crime and insurrection; the condemned, having not only to endure the pain, but the shame of hanging naked in public.

With your head in the box, you are quite ignorantly writing off this door (I am trying to open for you) as inconsequential. This discussion “holds no scriptural value to (you).”

Would you like to know the Truth? John, too, had many other things besides “the garments” on his mind while he was at the foot of the cross. He was equally preoccupied as he penned the ending of his Gospel, addressing his opinion about these final Words that Jesus said to Peter. John is as human as the rest of us. He simply missed what Jesus meant by “ANOTHER will gird you.”

Hindsight is 20/20. Yet... only if you are able to get your head out of your box — a box that has been nailed shut for 2000 years.

Would you at least allow the Holy Spirit to cut a hole in your box? You write, “It's interesting that instead of picking up the 3 times question, and answers and rebuttal you chose instead to thwart John’s gospel of Jesus. You are in for a really bumpy ride.”

How typical to get denunciations and judgments from one trapped in a box. I am not your enemy. The apostle John would be the first one to assure you of that. This is not a “thwarting.” This is an entrance point that leads directly into TRULY understanding what’s been done for us on the cross. FREEDOM. And, how that FREEDOM has been taken away from us by religious people with their heads stuck in a religious box, talking nonsense for two thousand years. Jesus was adamantly opposed to nonsense, Religion and the Box. This bit of Scripture we are discussing (if we could start discussing it) is a good path that leads out of the box.

My dear Christian brothers and sisters, which is it? You don’t get it? Or, you don’t want to get it? The God’s-honest Truth can be much too difficult to bear at times. But, as always, the Truth shall make you FREE. So, allow me to break it down for you. In Jesus’ farewell speech to Peter, Jesus is connecting “When you were young” to Peter’s three-year walk with Jesus. Jesus is talking about FREEDOM (as Jesus always taught). The pure “FREE-Indeed” FREEDOM of little children. Peter, when you were with me, you did exactly as you wanted to do with your own body: “Tied a strap around yourself.” And, went wherever you wanted to go: “Walked wherever you wanted to walk” (even on water). Total FREEDOM. Yet... somehow... the entire Reality of Jesus coming to set us FREE — (not “kinda free”) much better according to Jesus, “FREE-Indeed” — got circumvented into a box that was put together by Religion and, most unfortunate, into a Religion. A box that goes hand in hand with becoming a slave to Sin and the Law. Have you ever considered how many Real-Laws of the universe were simply circumvented when Peter stepped out of that boat and walked on water?

This is Real-FREEDOM, of which Jesus is reminding Peter. Opposed to what the future holds for Peter, “the Church,” “Christianity” and the entire world, which Jesus came to save. Opposed to what DID happen once ANOTHER took over. Jesus predicted it would happen. He knew.

John the Baptist also knew. “Behold the Lamb of God who takes AWAY the sins of the world.” Yet, ANOTHER stopped the “Sins-AWAY” thing from happening. Two thousand years, and all the sins of the world are still here. Christian and non Christian alike — slaves to sin. Yes, Church-Taught Christians are the first ones to admit to being sinners. Slaves of Sin. There is no such thing as a sinner saved by grace. You are one or the other. A sinner. Or saved by PERFECT-Grace. Jesus will be the first one to remind you, “Anyone who sins is a slave of sin.” What happened?

ANOTHER took over.

Beyond the ode to youthful FREEDOM (opposed to “old-man” Slavery), the key Word in Jesus’ farewell to Peter is “ANOTHER.” Precisely why Jesus repeated “Follow ME!” to Peter, again, again... again... and, yet again. Five times, total. “Follow, me!” Not “ANOTHER.”

John 21:19 (NIV) “Then Jesus said to Peter, ‘Follow me!’”

John 21:22 (ESV) “(Again) Jesus said to Peter, ‘If it is my will that he (John) remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!’”

Did you count them? Two times, right? (Keep counting.) Plus three more times. Equaling five times. Don’t forget the three times in the same speech, Jesus tells Peter, “You feed my sheep!” Undeniably, “You feed my sheep!” is the same as Jesus saying, “You follow me!”

It did not happen. Peter did NOT end up feeding the sheep. Who did? Who ended up feeding the sheep? Open your Bible and look at the contents of the New Testament. Who ended up feeding the sheep?

Peter, according to Jesus’ wishes?

Or ANOTHER?

The Reality is overwhelming. Peter provides an occasional happy-meal throughout the first few pages of Acts... that is, until ANOTHER takes over the kitchen duties entirely. Outside of the Gospels, the New Testament canon contains very little of what Jesus taught Peter. Two (tiny) Peter-Epistles, both blatantly endorsing the concepts of ANOTHER. Could it be any worse?

Yes. It can. Most scholars doubt Peter’s authorship for epistle number Two. We all (Christendom) ended up following ANOTHER.

Wow. That’s another big question for us. Who DID Peter and the rest of Christendom end up following? The answer is considerably more important than “the 3 times question, and answers and rebuttal.” That I can promise you.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

The 3rd one...... one what ?

☆First never assume a position you can not defend, you will be knocked flat.
☆Second, never think that YOU have found a pearl of great price,when in fact it is just a stone......

☆Now to the 3rd one,( pun intended)
I have never heard preaching on Peter's crucixication position. I do not live in a box but rather a book. A holy book of inspired writings that the Holy Ghost reveals to me. You would have done better to have written a blog on your assumptions and suppositions instead of a possible rebuttal post, which amts. to uninformative, irrelevant, and plain out right silliness.

You must be a young person new in faith by your excited utterances..Lol you will season over time. I would not discourage you in any way but encourage you rather to dig around the root for the core values of faith, build up in the basics so NO WIND would ever uproot your branch.

Blessings.

 

[Jack]

In his "Goodbye Speech" to his disciples, Jesus said to Peter:

John 21:18 (Original Greek) “Truly, truly I say to you. When you were young, you tied a strap around yourself and walked where you wanted to walk. But when you are old, you will extend your hands and another will gird you, and carry you where you do not want to go.”

John assumed that Jesus was referring to Peter's death by crucifixion. John 21:19 (KJV): “Signifying by what death Peter should glorify God.”

John presumption is simply wrong. It is impossible that Jesus was referring in any way to Peter's crucifixion.

What are your credentials for declaring our Bible to be wrong? Please don't tell us that you were sent by Kingdom Hall.

 

[ScottA]

In his "Goodbye Speech" to his disciples, Jesus said to Peter:

John 21:18 (Original Greek) “Truly, truly I say to you. When you were young, you tied a strap around yourself and walked where you wanted to walk. But when you are old, you will extend your hands and another will gird you, and carry you where you do not want to go.”

John assumed that Jesus was referring to Peter's death by crucifixion. John 21:19 (KJV): “Signifying by what death Peter should glorify God.”

John presumption is simply wrong. It is impossible that Jesus was referring in any way to Peter's crucifixion.

You are on to something...but I am not sure even you know what, or whom, or why.

When you have said it, then I will address it.

 

[Enoch111]

John presumption is simply wrong. It is impossible that Jesus was referring in any way to Peter's crucifixion.

Another naysayer or do we have a troll?

 

[Enoch111]

The 3rd one...... one what ?

Sounds Gnostic. Or perhaps the third guru to descend from Mt Everest.

 

[The Third One]

What a statement. "What are (my) credentials for declaring our Bible is wrong?"

It's not just "our Bible," I guess YOU should define whom you are representing as "our." It is my Bible, too. It's everyone's Bible. It's the only Bible we've got... what's been passed down to us, anyway.

Wow. I need "credentials"? Perhaps this SHOULD be a blog. (lol) However, let's keep it here for now, so we can iron out a few things in discussion first. Okay?

Credentials? What would you accept as "credentials"? Is this where I am supposed to share my background? My theological instruction? My degrees? My “salvation story”?

As far back as I can remember (way before the “structured” Box) I have always had an exceptionally close relationship with God the Father. That is my one and only credential that I consider worth mentioning. I can still vividly remember a game we used to play when I was four-years-old. Today (at sixty-one) we still play the game together. Unfortunately, not just for the pure fun it, as we used to when I was little.

I am surprised that no theologian in the room dared to hazard a guess as to what Jesus is actually saying to Peter, here, in his goodbye speech. I gave you all plenty of clues. The best clue is what Jesus tells us at John 8:34 (NIV) “Very truly I tell you, anyone who sins is a slave of sin.”

At the writing of this response, over 100 people have viewed the initial posting.

There has been no apologetic argument from anyone in the room against the premise of the post: That it is out of the question for Jesus to be referring to Peter’s death (at John 21:18)... as John mistakenly assumed. That is a given. Are we all good on that? Unless anyone would like to jump in at this point and defend the impossibility that Jesus is referring to Peter’s death by saying to Peter: “But when you are old, you will extend your hands and another will gird you, and carry you where you do not want to go.”

Are we all clear? Okay. The affirmative premise is an undisputed fact.

I am not berating the Apostle John for his mistake; nor do I encourage anyone else to do so. It was an honest mistake. You, me, kings, popes, clergymen, theologians, apologetics, the common man — we all accepted this (now obvious mistake) as “Gospel” for almost 2000 years.

At this point, we can proceed under the established fact that Jesus is certainly NOT referring to Peter’s death, as he warns Peter: “But when you are old, you will extend your hands and ANOTHER will gird you, and carry you where you do not want to go.”

So then. What is Jesus actually warning Peter about? And, who is ANOTHER?

What is Jesus saying here?

Much more than merely a declaration. More than just a warning.

It is a prophecy.

It is a prophecy for what the future holds for this most important vessel, which is Peter. Specifically, it is a prophecy for what the future holds to the importance of the Word that Jesus has entrusted with Peter... so that the Bread of Life may proliferate across the entire world. Five times Jesus tells Peter: "YOU follow me," "YOU feed my sheep."

This dire prophecy (from the very lips of Jesus) is not about something that might happen. No. This dire prophecy (from the very lips of Jesus) concerns what “WILL” happen. This dire prophecy (from the very lips of Jesus) concerns what actually DID happen.

“The Church” was built, for the most part, by following the word of ANOTHER. Not by following THE Word — the vigilant tutelage of Jesus, taught day-in and day-out to his hand-picked Apostles. Nope. The Church was built by following the words of an outsider. ANOTHER. A Pharisee. A Pharisee-Extremist, yet. That's the Truth. Our Religion revolves entirely around Christology.

Commonly known as "Christianity."

Jesus warned his disciples; yet, they disregarded his command. “Verily, verily! Tell NO ONE I am the Christ!”

So... here we are. Faith in CHRIST is what counts. CHRIST is punished in the place of us sinners. The redemption that is in CHRIST. We become transformed into the image of CHRIST. By diligently following the complete moral example of CHRIST. Together, we are the Body of CHRIST! Have you accepted CHRIST as your Lord and Savior? Yes! I know that I have! For, I am no longer living as I, rather, it is CHRIST living in me!

It is counterproductive to OUR LIVES for anything, even Jesus as a Person, to become more important to us than each and every one of us truly accepting what he did for us on the cross.

Jesus despised ALL Religion; yet, he inadvertently became one.

Take note: It is not called WHAT’S-BEEN-DONE-FOR-US-ON-THE-CROSSianity.

It is called CHRISTianity.

The A-Plan? Jesus wished for Peter to feed the Good News to the world. Apostle Peter’s roots were FREE and untwisted by Religion. Considered a “sinful man” in his day (for he did as he pleased), Peter begged Jesus to leave him be when they first met, claiming his lifestyle was far too coarse for Jesus to even be in his presence.

Peter spent three years, day-in and day-out, with Jesus. Peter’s roots became nurtured. Not with Religion. Rather, with Good News. And, so... before he physically left the first century, Jesus personally appointed Good-News-Rooted Peter to feed the Words of Life to the people of Creation. The Word would naturally spread across the world in down-to-earth common language. Yes, Jesus wanted Peter to write the Gospel of Jesus — the Gospel of PERFECT-Grace. Common folk. Hearing ALL of Jesus’ commonsense. From a common fisherman.

It never happened.

Instead, ANOTHER took over.

What DID happen to the Good Seed Jesus WAS able to plant? It got salted with Weeds -- Tares and Thistles. Using lovely intelligent/poetic language (fragmented in religious garble), ANOTHER re-taught the Words of Life to Jesus’ hand-picked Apostle, Peter... and... to everyone else.

So, here we are, folks. Our stomachs bloated with ANOTHER'S thirteen-course meal.

Peter admitted, “(ANOTHER'S) words are hard to understand.” (2 Peter 3:16)

You said it, brother. Same as Mein Kampf is hard to understand. Compared to the simplicity of what Jesus taught.

Still, Peter swore to us by ANOTHER, calling his words, “Wisdom given unto him.” (2 Peter 3:15)

No surprise why Peter’s words became hard to understand. ANOTHER takes over the ship (like a pirate) and Peter gets the job of parrot on ANOTHER'S shoulder. Read the Gospels. Jesus never taught any of these words to Peter. Read Peter’s First Epistle. Far beyond three denials, 1 Peter puts the Reality of “the cross” in the back of the bus — in favor of pursuing self-righteousness. Just listen to Parrot-Peter, squawking out ANOTHER'S words:

“Sanctification!” “Unto obedience!” (“Obedience” now being job one.) Sloppy seconds? “AND... the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.” Pete, what about simply... taking... what’s been done for us on the cross? Taking? No! It’s a cleansing. ANOTHER calls it “a sacrifice.” “We’re sprinkled with the precious blood of Christ — the Lamb without blemish!” Whoa, slow down, Pete. Jesus calls it “a RANSOM.” That’s not important! Your “incorruptible and undefiled inheritance” is “reserved for you in heaven!” Reserved for us in Heaven? What about now, Pete? (Yikes. As for “Now?”) “Ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations!”

Peter is not talking about PERFECT-Grace killing sin; Peter is talking about sin, killing PERFECT-Grace.

“Corruption through lust!” caused by “Covetousness!” leading to “Damnation!”

These are ANOTHER'S words. Forming a Jesus Parable: The Fisherman Taught By the Pharisee.

 

[The Third One]

What happened to Jesus’ Words? “BE PERFECT.” Disregard Religion. Truly accept what I do for you... and then... simply “BE” what you truly are. “BE PERFECT.” A forgotten headline, top of page one.


What happened to Jesus’ headline? Front page of the Good News? It has been replaced. It has been labeled: misinformation. "Be PERFECT": No one knows what Jesus meant by that. The saying has “no statement of time.” Thus, it’s not “Faith-agreeable” to our Religion.


The front page has been discarded. It still covers the bottom of Peter’s birdcage, catching the droppings as we parrot Peter, parroting ANOTHER'S pursuit of non-attainable self-sanctification. “Godliness!” “Glory!” and “Virtue!”


Peter ended up following ANOTHER like a puppy dog on a religious leash. Most disastrously, when it came to the “proper place” to put What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross: UNDER the overall sovereignty of the Law. The doctored-down version of “grace,” that we have all been taught... passed down to us from whom?


From ANOTHER.


Such a betrayal to Truth came with grave consequences to the Word — much worse than the consequences of Peter outright denying Jesus three times. The Sower. The Wheat and the Tares. These, too, are dire forecasts, clearly indicating what HAS become of the Word. After years of Jesus meticulously teaching Peter, it is incomprehensible that “ANOTHER” could lead Peter down the nowhere path. Yet, it happened. In spite of the last Words Jesus spoke to Peter, warning him that this is exactly what would happen:


John 21:18 (Original Greek) “Truly, truly I say to you. When you were young, you tied a strap around yourself and walked where you wanted to walk. But when you are old, you will extend your hands and ANOTHER will gird you, and carry you where you do not want to go.”


So now. Let's move on to your first question. What is my "assumption"? What is my explanation for what Jesus means by, "you will extend your hands and ANOTHER will gird you"? I can promise you, I didn't just "come up" with my own "assumption." I specifically asked the Holy Spirit. Ask and you shall receive. What is Jesus actually saying here, to Peter, in his goodbye speech? “But when you are old, you will extend your hands and ANOTHER will gird you, and carry you where you do not want to go.”


Step forward out of the Box and take a close look at Peter’s hands. Open your eyes. Can you see them? Yes, both hands of Peter are "extended outward." In front of him and tied together. Jesus is not talking about Peter being crucified. Jesus is talking about Peter being led off as a slave.


Do likewise. Ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Let the Holy Spirit show you the most decisive fact. Did you stop? Did you really pray for help from the Holy Spirit? Ready? Set? Go:


“To martyrdom is exactly where Peter wanted to go.”


Dear Lord, what is THAT supposed to mean?


The absolute Truth. The absolute Truth is what you always get from the Holy Spirit.


Jesus says, “ANOTHER” will carry Peter where Peter “does NOT want to go.”


Get it?


Do you really understand this most decisive fact? Peter more than welcomed the idea of becoming a martyr. Crucifixion is EXACTLY where Peter WANTED to go. So, then. Where is it that Jesus is saying Peter “does NOT want to go”?


Back to pickin’ cotton down on Massa’s Plantation.


Who would want such a thing? Step right up, folks. Who wants to trade-off your cross-bought FREEDOM for slavery?


Two choices: Do you want to be a slave to Sin, or do you want to be a slave to Sin?


Not a typo. Give it time. Master Obedience, Master Self-Earned Righteousness and Master Law always and inevitably sell any and ALL of us right back into the clutches of Master Sin. In this world, under ANOTHER’S doctored-down version of “grace,” you will always be a Slave to Sin.


Parrot-Peter confirms this tragedy to ALL of his fellow “believers.” “Ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations!”


Wake up. Open your eyes and ears. Visualize and listen. See and hear exactly what Jesus is saying to Peter. “You will extend your hands” (both hands extended straight out in front of Peter and bound together). “ANOTHER will GIRD you, and CARRY you WHERE YOU DO NOT WANT TO GO.” Where no one wants to go. To worse than martyrdom. To slavery.


Did you look closer, Sherlock? DID you get your magnifying glass out? “ANOTHER will gird you.” Again, this is very specific. A man girded by “another”? There is only one reason “ANOTHER will gird you,” and one reason alone. Only if you were a slave being prepped by your master for hard labor.


Ring any bells? According to ANOTHER, you have two choices (and two choices alone -- Romans 6:16): You can be an obedient slave to the Sin Plantation – or – an obedient slave to the Obedience Plantation. Two choices. Neither choice (of which ANOTHER is giving you) has anything to do with simply and truly accepting what's been done for us on the cross. It is impossible for anyone to OBEY what's been done for us on the cross. One must simply and truly ACCEPT what's been done for us on the cross.


What's been done for us on the cross is a gift. Take it. It's that simple. It requires no work. It's a done-deal. Truly accept it. Yikes. The TRULY part is where the problem has come in. Keep in mind, in order for you to properly work either Plantation (of which ANOTHER is offering you) you need ample mobility. So you can really put your back into it.

 

[The Third One]

Did you take the time to ponder over why Jesus’ tone was so harsh with Peter during his goodbye speech? The first time I read it, I was flabbergasted in wonder. Stunned and confused. Especially as Jesus continued to question Peter’s loyalty... for yet a third time:


“Simon, son of Jonas, do you even love me?”


Peter was grieved, shell-shocked and equally confused. Hardly a positive send-off... from Jesus... who knows exactly what the future holds.


Brothers and sisters, what else can I say? At least ANOTHER allows Peter the "freedom" to choose what kind of a slave he wants to become. (Romans 6:16) The same two choices ANOTHER offers to each and every one of us. Which will it be, brother Peter?


Slavery to Sin? Or Slavery to Obedience/Righteousness/the Law?


Wake up. Take the cardboard Box to the curb. Sleepy-time is over. We ALL need to wake up. Jesus spoke this warning not just to Peter. His warning is meant for ALL of us. Beware:


“Another will gird you, and carry you where you do not want to go.”


You can study and pour over the remainder of Romans and the rest of ANOTHER’S letters and epistles that follow. Whenever ANOTHER returns to the subject of What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross, the true PERFECTION of Grace is always diminished by ANOTHER'S Pharisee-Influenced, doctored-down version of “grace” infected with endless conditions, ultimatums and additions. Fair warning. After the plane crash at Romans 6:16, we should carefully test every word that comes to us from the cabin-speakers out of the cockpit of Captain ANOTHER.


The Church and her pilots adamantly disagree, willing to fly a bicycle head-on into the spinning blades of an Apache helicopter if The Gospel According To ANOTHER “says” to do so. Despite ANOTHER, himself encouraging us to “Test everything.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)


Test everything... how?


By the absolute God’s-Honest Truth of the Holy Spirit, of course. The Holy Spirit is clear and specific. Makes no difference what the holiest icon “says” in the most hallowed of places, or whether “the words” are read by the saintliest pastor out of the most sacred of books — yes, reformed Mature-Christian Fundamentalist, even should thy most sacred book be thy King James Bible.


Does thy Holy Spirit have thine attention?


GOOD. Because, this is what does matter:


“Do ‘the words’ support what’s been done for you on the cross? Or do ‘the words’ deprecate what’s been done for you on the cross?”


Any required “AND,” on top of truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross, deprecates what’s been done for us on the cross. In other words, anything we add to it, takes AWAY from it. By simply and truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross, we gain EVERYTHING; for, we regain the one thing Jesus wants us to regain. Our PERFECTION.


Easier for a non-Christian to accept this Holy Truth than an Indoctrinated Mature-Christian. Indoctrinated by guess whom?


"ANOTHER."


The worst part of buying-into Romans 6:16 (or any diminishment of PERFECT-Grace) is the psychological damage one inflicts upon one’s own self. “Believe” this: Every time you buy-into any add-on, you are subconsciously sending a Grace-Destroying message to yourself: Simply accepting what’s been done for me on the cross is not enough.


Imagine Jesus, himself, interrupting the typical Christian Sunday-go-to-meeting, carrying his cross up the aisle with the blood still dripping off him. There is silence. Every eye is trained upon him. Finally, Jesus asks the pilot, priest, pastor (whoever is flying the airplane)...


"Was this not enough?"


What do you suppose the captain should tell him over the loudspeaker?


“Well, actually, no sir, it’s not. You see…” proceeding, of course, to explain to Jesus the contradictory and complicated mess our “belief” system has made out of Jesus’ pure and simple Concept. Imagine Pastor starting Jesus off with the “mother’s milk” of A,B,C Christianity and then leading Jesus ALL the way into walking that “Christ-like” path of “discipleship.” Our Savior would very likely hand his cross over to the closest stand-up Mature-Christian and declare:


"When did I ever say, 'You need to be ‘Christ-like’? I told you to pick up your cross and follow me, not pick up my cross and follow me. But, here, take it if you really want it."


Picture (if you would) a hood ornament indestructibly connected to every working part of our car — every necessary component, including a jet-fuel system and even the jet fuel itself. Our hood, our engine, our tires and everything in-between. If we can envision such a thing, then what’s been done for us on the cross is our hood ornament. It is our focal point. What we never lose sight of and what proceeds us.


It is the TOTALITY of what gets us there.


This same parabolic analogy faithfully teaches the perils of the ifs, ands and buts:


Think I’ll attach me a streamer to the hood ornament.


That’ll work! I’ll get one for us while I’m up at the body shop, ’cause ANOTHER says we need a pin stripe, a spoiler, some racing tires, and a ball-bearing to throw into our camshaft.


Remember, IF... we don’t write CHEVY on the back window, our “Faith” is useless and we are still in our sins.


My preacher told me that ALL we need — to straighten up our car — is some Mag-wheels with those hubcaps that spin backward.


Hey, some seat covers would sure make it FEEL better.


Yeah, BUT... don’t ever forget to honor tradition: so, you just know, we got to hang those fuzzy dice from the rear view.


AND... always remember to praise the Lord — so... while you’re over there, be sure an’ have ’em stick us a plastic Jesus on the dashboard.


Oh, yeah, AND... while your out, pick us up a bunch of that “maturity.” We need plenty of that, too, don’t we? In order to get into heaven?


Remarkably, just the opposite. Jesus tells us exactly what we need to do to enjoy the Reality of the Kingdom of Heaven. Quite the opposite of maturity, that is for sure. According to Jesus, we need to become like little children. Which, by the way, is exactly what happens to us when we truly and totally accept what’s been done for us on the cross.


Okay boys and girls (and any others). There’s your Sunday sermon.


I don’t expect to hear an “Amen!” from anyone. However, I do expect to hear... something. Hopefully, something intelligent.


I think you're right, old chap. We all need to fasten our seatbelts. For, we are ALL in for a bumpy ride.


My advise to any commenter or Church-Taught apologetic among you is to pray about it first.. before you start typing. Ask God to help you to think Out-of-the-Box. Listen to the Holy Spirit — not the Box. The Holy Spirit knows the Box, inside and out. She is ready and waiting to punch a million holes in it (if necessary), so that you can take a good look at PERFECT-Grace. And, take the broken Box to the curb.



Did you take the time to ponder over why Jesus’ tone was so harsh with Peter during his goodbye speech? The first time I read it, I was flabbergasted in wonder. Stunned and confused. Especially as Jesus continued to question Peter’s loyalty... for yet a third time:



“Simon, son of Jonas, do you even love me?”



Peter was grieved, shell-shocked and equally confused. Hardly a positive send-off... from Jesus... who knows exactly what the future holds.



Brothers and sisters, what else can I say? At least ANOTHER allows Peter the "freedom" to choose what kind of a slave he wants to become. (Romans 6:16) The same two choices ANOTHER offers to each and every one of us. Which will it be, brother Peter?



Slavery to Sin? Or Slavery to Obedience/Righteousness/the Law?



Wake up. Take the cardboard Box to the curb. Sleepy-time is over. We ALL need to wake up. Jesus spoke this warning not just to Peter. His warning is meant for ALL of us. Beware:



“Another will gird you, and carry you where you do not want to go.”

 

[The Third One]

You can study and pour over the remainder of Romans and the rest of ANOTHER’S letters and epistles that follow. Whenever ANOTHER returns to the subject of What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross, the true PERFECTION of Grace is always diminished by ANOTHER'S Pharisee-Influenced, doctored-down version of “grace” infected with endless conditions, ultimatums and additions. Fair warning. After the plane crash at Romans 6:16, we should carefully test every word that comes to us from the cabin-speakers out of the cockpit of Captain ANOTHER.



The Church and her pilots adamantly disagree, willing to fly a bicycle head-on into the spinning blades of an Apache helicopter if The Gospel According To ANOTHER “says” to do so. Despite ANOTHER, himself encouraging us to “Test everything.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)



Test everything... how?



By the absolute God’s-Honest Truth of the Holy Spirit, of course. The Holy Spirit is clear and specific. Makes no difference what the holiest icon “says” in the most hallowed of places, or whether “the words” are read by the saintliest pastor out of the most sacred of books — yes, reformed Mature-Christian Fundamentalist, even should thy most sacred book be thy King James Bible.



Does thy Holy Spirit have thine attention?



GOOD. Because, this is what does matter:



“Do ‘the words’ support what’s been done for you on the cross? Or do ‘the words’ deprecate what’s been done for you on the cross?”



Any required “AND,” on top of truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross, deprecates what’s been done for us on the cross. In other words, anything we add to it, takes AWAY from it. By simply and truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross, we gain EVERYTHING; for, we regain the one thing Jesus wants us to regain. Our PERFECTION.



Easier for a non-Christian to accept this Holy Truth than an Indoctrinated Mature-Christian. Indoctrinated by guess whom?



"ANOTHER."



The worst part of buying-into Romans 6:16 (or any diminishment of PERFECT-Grace) is the psychological damage one inflicts upon one’s own self. “Believe” this: Every time you buy-into any add-on, you are subconsciously sending a Grace-Destroying message to yourself: Simply accepting what’s been done for me on the cross is not enough.



Imagine Jesus, himself, interrupting the typical Christian Sunday-go-to-meeting, carrying his cross up the aisle with the blood still dripping off him. There is silence. Every eye is trained upon him. Finally, Jesus asks the pilot, priest, pastor (whoever is flying the airplane)...



"Was this not enough?"



What do you suppose the captain should tell him over the loudspeaker?



“Well, actually, no sir, it’s not. You see…” proceeding, of course, to explain to Jesus the contradictory and complicated mess our “belief” system has made out of Jesus’ pure and simple Concept. Imagine Pastor starting Jesus off with the “mother’s milk” of A,B,C Christianity and then leading Jesus ALL the way into walking that “Christ-like” path of “discipleship.” Our Savior would very likely hand his cross over to the closest stand-up Mature-Christian and declare:



"When did I ever say, 'You need to be ‘Christ-like’? I told you to pick up your cross and follow me, not pick up my cross and follow me. But, here, take it if you really want it."



Picture (if you would) a hood ornament indestructibly connected to every working part of our car — every necessary component, including a jet-fuel system and even the jet fuel itself. Our hood, our engine, our tires and everything in-between. If we can envision such a thing, then what’s been done for us on the cross is our hood ornament. It is our focal point. What we never lose sight of and what proceeds us.



It is the TOTALITY of what gets us there.



This same parabolic analogy faithfully teaches the perils of the ifs, ands and buts:



Think I’ll attach me a streamer to the hood ornament.



That’ll work! I’ll get one for us while I’m up at the body shop, ’cause ANOTHER says we need a pin stripe, a spoiler, some racing tires, and a ball-bearing to throw into our camshaft.



Remember, IF... we don’t write CHEVY on the back window, our “Faith” is useless and we are still in our sins.



My preacher told me that ALL we need — to straighten up our car — is some Mag-wheels with those hubcaps that spin backward.



Hey, some seat covers would sure make it FEEL better.



Yeah, BUT... don’t ever forget to honor tradition: so, you just know, we got to hang those fuzzy dice from the rear view.



AND... always remember to praise the Lord — so... while you’re over there, be sure an’ have ’em stick us a plastic Jesus on the dashboard.



Oh, yeah, AND... while your out, pick us up a bunch of that “maturity.” We need plenty of that, too, don’t we? In order to get into heaven?



Remarkably, just the opposite. Jesus tells us exactly what we need to do to enjoy the Reality of the Kingdom of Heaven. Quite the opposite of maturity, that is for sure. According to Jesus, we need to become like little children. Which, by the way, is exactly what happens to us when we truly and totally accept what’s been done for us on the cross.



Okay boys and girls (and any others). There’s your Sunday sermon.



I don’t expect to hear an “Amen!” from anyone. However, I do expect to hear... something. Hopefully, something intelligent.



I think you're right, old chap. We all need to fasten our seatbelts. For, we are ALL in for a bumpy ride.



My advise to any commenter or Church-Taught apologetic among you is to pray about it first.. before you start typing. Ask God to help you to think Out-of-the-Box. Listen to the Holy Spirit — not the Box. The Holy Spirit knows the Box, inside and out. She is ready and waiting to punch a million holes in it (if necessary), so that you can take a good look at PERFECT-Grace. And, take the broken Box to the curb.

 

[The Third One]

Should have been a blog. Sorry for the repeats.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Ok 3rd one,

I'm gonna hang in with you a moment longer bc I want to see what YOUR end of this might be.

Peter was a very blunt, brash, impulsive person, ( not unlike myself ) so I feel a kinship to his spirit....female here though.....lol

He always wanted to be first, foremost, and recognized to have Jesus's back so to speak.
Yet he was told by Christ that when it mattered Peter would deny him 3 times and distance himself from God.

3 denials, now 3 affirmations of his love to the Christ.

They did not understand salvation at this point, nor grasp most of Jesus's words to them. Jesus said I came to seek & to save that which was lost. Matthew 15:21-27 ( cxt ) John 10:1-18 ( cxt) Jesus explained his message and whom his sheep were.
He commissioned the 12 to go to the lost sheep of Israel and specifically not to go to the Gentiles. Matthew 10:2-7
( cxt )

If you are saying what Peter had to tell of the " Good News of Christ "was only for the Jews , I can concede that IS what Jesus told him. However there is the one instance of Cornelius household where God had to show him a bit more about himself.[ Peter]

I get the feeling you are saying the "ANOTHER " was Paul. A good, devout, well tutored Pharisee of renown.

So now I'm thinking you are dissing Paul's ministry as being against the cross and that somehow it influenced Peter to deviate from HIS mission.

I am a Gentile but Paul spoke of ZERO divide under salvation, Greek, Jew, male, female, free man or slave, but that all had liberty under the grace of God as partners of the gift of salvation.

Saul / Paul was personally chosen to minister the gospel of Christ unto the Gentiles. It is the message of believers in discipleship. He didn't leave the cross out but rather instructed from the cross how we are to follow on in God !

 

[The Third One]

Hello, L3astAmOngManyB13ss3d,

Thank you for hanging with me a moment longer. Blessings upon you!

My “end of this” is a Real concern, regarding our terrible 2000-Year Progress Report. Where are we at, right now? In the fruition of Jesus’ Concept?

No better than we were 2000 years before anyone knew the name of Jesus. The name of Jesus (and what’s happened to his Concept) has actually withered under “Church” agenda.

In 23 AD, John the Baptist announced, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes AWAY the sin of the world.” This is Good News. Proclaimed to the world. And, yet... two thousand years later, the same old sins of the world are still here. Can you imagine, having to send John the Baptist our two-millennium progress report: Hey, John, I suppose you’re wondering how that “Sins-AWAY” thing is working out for us? I hate to have to be the one to have to tell ya this. It’s 2023AD and the world is still wallowing around in sin — “believers” and “non-believers” alike. Not to say, you and your cousin didn’t do YOUR part.

They DID do their part... for the entire world. Thus, it should be simple and easy for the “Sins-AWAY” thing to work out PERFECTLY for ALL of us. One person at a time. All we have to do, individually, is... truly accept... that ALL of our sin has been taken AWAY by what’s been done for us on the cross. Simple. And, easy. For every person on the planet. It is a gift. ALL we have to do is Really take it. And, yet, we cannot. The Good News has been repackaged so that no one in this world can find what Jesus calls, “The Place of Life.” We have been sold on the idea that “getting home” is scored by dying.

For the love of our “Faith” we have done worse than compromise the Reality of PERFECT-Grace. We have destroyed it. The evidence to support this fact is undeniable. In my exhaustive search throughout brick & mortar churches and online congregations, I have talked to literally tens of thousands of Christians — solid “believers,” representing every Christian doctrine imaginable. Not one “believer” could honestly testify to me that he or she had truly accepted, 100% (with no ifs, ands or buts) that ALL of his or her sins had been taken AWAY by what’s been done for us on the cross. The Church-Taught Christian has no idea what the Word “AWAY” means... whenever the Word is applied to sin.

I am a great fan of our brother, Apostle Peter (much for the same reasons as you cite). I am a great fan of our brother, the Apostle John (as I said, he is a human tape recorder when it comes to quoting Jesus). Only, when it comes to ALL eleven of the remaining Apostles’ commentary (especially when it has anything to do with what’s been done for us on the cross), as Jesus says, (and as the eleven apostles, themselves, admit), “They do not understand.”

Two thousand years. Imagine Jesus politely asking us, in friendly banter. “How’s it goin’?”

Uh... not so good. We have an entire world that does not understand the simplicity of the most important thing to understand. What’s been done for us on the cross.

As for God specifically sending Peter to the Jews and Paul specifically to the Gentiles? Come on. Church dogma, straight out of the Box. Do you actually “believe” that God PLANNED this disaster? (lol) It would be like God sending Biden to the Republicans and Trump to the Democrats. (You can laugh all you want, but that’s actually a pretty good analogy.)

Let’s get Real. Jesus did not tell Peter to “Feed my Jewish sheep.” ALL of humanity, from Adam and onward, are “the sheep.”

Jesus is the shepherd, who was sent to ALL of us... by the Living God of Light, no less.

Not to take anything AWAY from our Christian hero (and brother), Paul. You guessed it. “ANOTHER.” Certainly “another”… way outside of what Jesus taught. A Pharisee is a Pharisee (duh) and way too Law-Minded to stomach the Jesus Concept. Paul of Tarsus (also known as Rocky) is, indeed, an astonishing individual, in spite of ALL of the Real damage he has done. He is truly a fine person. He is an amazing person. Definitely a stand out. Once he gets his mind set on something, there is no stopping him.

 

[The Third One]

However... (oh, yes, there’s a big however). Can we, as Mature-Christians, handle the God’s-honest Truth? (Brace yourself.) Paul never stopped being what he is.


Paul IS Religion. Astronomically more than Fauci is Science. Paul is chained to the concept of Good & Evil; slave to Religion, Sin and the Law. You can take the man out of the Pharisees, but good luck taking the Pharisees out of the man.


You are correct, Paul WAS a Pharisee-Extremist.


What he became in Christianity is not much different.


Still... Paul had a miraculous understanding of what was done for us on the cross, evidenced by the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans (a Holy Spirit “miracle”). The very thing keeping Paul’s airplane aloft (during the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans) IS the Holy Spirit AND the pure power of what’s been done for us on the cross. Take note: PURE power… meaning, no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts” thrown in.


Romans 6:16 is where the catastrophic plane crash takes place. We should examine this disaster in great detail. Suffice to say, Paul takes it upon himself to fix the cross.


Here’s another way to put it. Instead of bravely upholding the previous five and-a-half chapters of Romans, Paul fearfully throws the gears into reverse. Specifically, Paul answers his fearful question with a faithless answer. I say “faithless” for your benefit. What Paul actually suffered from (as evidenced by the majority of his writings) is a “true acceptance” problem.


After Romans 6:16 and onward, the writing is mostly Paul. Yes, there are plenty of bright spots where the Holy Spirit pushes through. However, for the most part, what follows 6:16 is a Paul manifesto. The Philosophy of a Pharisee-Extremist Christian.


Along with Paul’s disastrous reversal at Romans 6:16, the Church has inherited fifty truckloads of “ifs,” “ands” and “buts.” As Christians, we inherit them too, as part of our “Faith.” We are taught to “believe” in ALL of them. Any one of which, by itself (if bought-into) prevents the “believer” from truly accepting — 100%, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts” — what’s been done for us on the cross.


Jesus’ eleven hand-picked remaining Apostles were no exception. They bought into Paul’s cross-fixing as well. The Apostle, John, being the least infected, having had that extra year of tutelage from John the Baptist. Still, ALL eleven of the remaining Apostles were Paul-Influenced to some degree (actually, to quite a large degree).


All six of the Church’s nonsensical Atonement Theories were likewise influenced.


That is precisely why the Holy Spirit suggested this post. What Jesus says to Peter (in his Goodbye Speech. That “ANOTHER will take you where you DO NOT want to go.” Our Father in Heaven calls it, “A good place to start.” For, it shows us “believers” something very important we need to realize about ourselves (and Christendom). We have ALL been dogmatized to agree upon understanding what Jesus says, one way. And, yet, clear as Jesus is actually saying it, he might as well be speaking to us in tongues. For, all we can hear is Christianeese.


Can you honestly affirm this, the most important of ALL testimonies: “I have truly accepted, 100%, with no ifs, ands or buts, that my sins (past, present and future) have ALL been taken AWAY by what’s been done for me on the cross.”


The “ifs,” “ands” and “buts,” in and of themselves, make true-acceptance nearly impossible for the Church-Taught Christian to affirm. Even if these hurtles could somehow be cleared, the Mature-Christian would still find himself attached to the heaviest ball and chain — the Church’s disapproving view of the “ALL of my sins have been taken AWAY” part of the testimony. Church-Dogma insists, our sins are still very much here. If we fail to see them, they will be pointed out to us; so we can “confess” and “repent” of them; so that our sins may be “forgiven.” A religious assembly line for the processing of our sin. So much for “the cross” (whatever that’s supposed to mean).


It would be far better, had every Christian concept be erased from our minds, we had never heard one word about Jesus and start from scratch. What we have lost already is far greater than what the Church can ever teach us.


The most important advancement for human Life is the Jesus Concept. Yet, the Jesus Concept remains trapped in the thinking of the first century.


The two concepts go hand in hand together — the Jesus Concept and the concept of human Life. For, within the concept of human Life lay every other concept we have ever had the privilege to know. KNOWING (thinking) is the overall concept of human Life. KNOWING IS our Life. Consider ALL the important concepts we KNOW in the twenty-first century. Now, imagine them ALL, in practice, from a first century mindset.


Imagine if our concept of Science was still trapped in the thinking of the first century.


Imagine if our concept of Travel was still trapped in the thinking of the first century.


Imagine if our concept of Communication was still trapped in the thinking of the first century.


Imagine if our concepts of Housing and Plumbing and Having Access to Water were still trapped in the thinking of the first century.


Imagine if our concept of Medicine was still trapped in the thinking of the first century.


We have moved ahead in every essential human endeavor, with the exception of the one human endeavor that is ABSOLUTELY MOST ESSENTIAL to us. The most important Concept in the universe remains trapped in the thinking of the first century.


I hate to have to be a Debbie Downer; but, whether anyone listens or forbears, the Living God demands of me to speak these things.


ALL of what the Living God has to teach us cannot be contained in any one book. He IS LIVING, I hope you know. He’s kept a birds-eye view on the past 2000 years. He has a lot of Words to say about it. “Happy” would not be one of them.


“An abomination” are actually two of them.


Still, He would much rather speak to us by way of the Holy Spirit... than by way of His second choice. Want to hear it “Biblically”? Through fire and brimstone.


I hope that better explains my end of this.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

My, my; friend,
What a conundrum and where to start!

I have to ask this to have a more open approach to your thoughts. What faith are you of, your spiritual raising since you've stated knowing God a long time.
( lol....not asking 4 credentials)

What is the bible or Word of God that you accept?

You do realize that Peter being a simple fisherman was a commoner and lacked in education and so we have no Gospel of Peter. Yes he was a Jew and probably acknowledged God and his heritage, but wasnt a strict faithful follower. We can see this when Jesus first met him as youve pointed out. He was coarse, a sinner who probably drank to much and swore a lot among other things.

Peter was one of the first that Jesus tuned in to.
His disciples were of varying personalities, backgrounds , all were Jews but not all faithful to their religion.
Do you accept the O. T?

Peter walked, ate, slept, listened to and was intimate with Jesus but he was unrefined. Jesus told him satan desired to sift him as wheat; but Jesus said " I have prayed for you "! Like 22:29-32
( cxt) [ b4 they began their mission]

Peter and the 12 received their commission DIRECTLY from the Christ.
Even though at Jesus death Peter followed and watched from afar.

In Peter's 1st letter he was addressing the elect who were of the foreknowledge of God ; JEWS! Christianity was made up first of the Jewish ppl, not those nations around them. They were the first to become followers of Christ.

Sadly we have no dates of the timing of any of the Word unless they reference a piece of history that we can point to. In this we don't know how long after Jesus's death things were written. We do know that Peter remained in Jerusalem attending the completed Jews. (See Acts)

Saying that, only by what is written do we know Paul spent 3 yrs there with Peter, we know too that he spent some years alone without the camp of Christianity with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12: 1-5 ( cxt ) If Paul is speaking of himself, or could this be John ?

We can see the 2nd letter of Peter was then addressed to the Gentiles, which were assumed to be prosolytetes to Judaism as christianity was attached to that faith. In this letter he talks about his upcoming suffering & demise as a follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus had said in his discourses, " I have sheep of another fold that ye know not of ". John 10:16. I'm sure Peter struggled greatly with this happening of Gentile salvation. Yet he warned them of the false minister of grace that sought only to destroy the faith of Christ.Telling them to hold steadfast and not be swayed.

2 Peter3:12-18 ( cxt)
Here Peter tells the Jew & Gentile saved that Paul is our beloved brother and yes he does speak of some hard sayings to the UNLEARNED & UNSTABLE . ( his phariseeical upbring )

Those of the Jewery and the prosyletes should have been aware of the O. T. Word, by their sharing and edifying of one another so that they do not also incur the destruction of the wicked.

Saul / Paul we 1st see in Acts 7:58; 8:1-3; 9:1-31, ( his conversion to Paul, and his anointing as an Apostle to the Gentiles by Christ ) Acts 11:1; 25/26,30;
12:12:25 ; and so on.

Do you deny Paul as an Apostle, appointed by Christ himself to the Gentiles ?

 

[The Third One]

Christianity is stocked-full with conundrums. And, yes, my dear friend, we do have a “Gospel of Peter.” Our Neanderthal Church fathers of the second and third century simply dismissed it... and so, it was not included in the canon.

Are you not aware of exactly HOW the New Testament was pieced together? Are you not aware of all of the Gospels our second century bozos had at their disposal? “Disposal” is exactly what happened to most of these Gospels — irreplaceable documents. Poof!

The Church has allowed us four Gospels to read. There were at least twenty-seven authentic Gospels autographed before the second century AD. Thirteen of these still exist partially or in full. The fathers of the Church purposefully destroyed at least eight of them (likely more). Why? Because the content clearly contradicted Paul and the early Constantine-Agreed-Upon/Decreed-Upon Christian-“Belief”-System. To date, no known copies of these Gospels exist. We should keep digging up the ground. There is no telling what we may stumble upon.

To be alive in this world and; yet, to be made PERFECTLY immune to The Knowledge of Good & Evil is what Jesus calls, “Living in the Place of Life.” Have you ever read Jesus, being quoted, using that particular expression? Ever read it in a Gospel? “The Place of Life” or “Living in the Place of Life”? It is not likely that you have. For, way, early on (second century AD) the same Gospel-burning Church fathers edited this phrase from the un-burnt Gospels; including (according to the Holy Spirit) the two times it originally appeared in the autograph text of the Gospel of John.

Thankfully, sounder parties prevailed and buried the Gospel of Thomas (subsequently found) so that our editorially inclined, lunatic, book-burning Church-fathers of the second and third centuries could not completely rob us of this sacred phrase:

Gospel of Thomas, Verse 4: “Jesus said, ‘The person old in days won’t hesitate to ask a LITTLE child seven days old about the Place of Life, and that person will Live.’”

You ask, “What “Faith” are you?”

I am a People-Person. I trust in the solid, unwavering fact that we are ALL in this together. Those proclaimed “Good” and those proclaimed “Evil.” Those proclaimed “believers” and those proclaimed “non-believers” alike.

As for “what am I?” As in “what church?” I was raised Catholic, but I never quite took the commands (nor the chain of command) seriously enough to define myself as such. In my expansive search, I attended various Bible studies in multiple gatherings. Fundamental. Evangelical. You name it. I had a marvelous time with everyone. However, theologically (and/or denominationally) “what I am” is not what any of those people claimed to be, either. They were ALL wonderful people. God’s-honest Truth. I have no personal axe to grind with any specific church, be it Catholic, Protestant or Multi-Denominational (I say “Multi” because, truly, there is no such thing in Christianity as “Non-Denominational”).

I can promise you this. I am what the Scriptures define as “a man of God.”

I can also promise you (and I know Him pretty well) that the Living God of Light has simply had a bellyful of the Christian Church as a whole.

As to your second question: “What is the bible or Word of God that you accept?”

I totally accept the Word of God. As long as it tests true as being the Word of God.

The point in all this is not to incite a witch hunt against the Bible or the Apostles of Jesus. Nor is this intended for us to judge any of these guys. The point of all this lay in the practicality of what needs to be done. Let’s get all the crud out of the way, so we can clearly see what’s been done for us on the cross. Indeed, one does have to clearly SEE it, before one can TRULY ACCEPT it.

Overall, the Apostles did a terrific job. They did the very best they could, considering who they were. These WERE first century guys.

Jesus HAD to come to us exactly when and where he came to us; otherwise, there would have never been a RANSOM. He gathered to himself the best that first century Judea had to offer him. He knew these guys had not the first clue, brutally imprisoned by the Knowledge of Good & Evil (it gets worse as time goes on) — our generation is even MORE brutally imprisoned by it. These were yahoos who believed in fairytales. They saw God as something supernatural (a disappointing malady, which STILL plagues our thinking to this day), when, in actuality, God is the most natural Force in the universe.

The greatest God-oriented minds of Jesus' time were STILL conducting animal sacrifices “to appease God.” A stubborn and ridiculous generation.

Jesus is speaking from an ALL-Time-Inclusive position when he says: Matthew 17:17 (Original Greek) “Jesus said, “You mistrustful and perverse generation! How long must I remain with you? How long must I endure you?”

Try to imagine this predicament from Jesus’ standpoint. You KNOW the entire scope of Time AND you have the greatest Concept of ALL Time for the benefit of human Life. Yet, you have no choice but to leave it in the Neanderthal hands of the first century:

“How long must I remain with you? How long must I endure you?”

A long time, Jesus. The clock is still ticking. Two millennium, thus far. And, still counting. Your Concept, fully understood and brought to fruition, remains the most critically necessary advancement for human Life on planet Earth. Yet, still, to this day, your Concept remains imprisoned — in Time. Stuck... two thousand years ago. Captured and detained (in handcuffs) by a religious country club — a “Warden” that binds and limits human Life to “Bible-Verse” proceeding from the minds of first-century men. Words taken at face value, unchecked by the soaring lift of the Holy Spirit, yet proclaimed “holy” by the witless providence of MAN. Words reduced to papyrus written with quills made from flight feathers designed to provide “lift.” Nothing less than the best first century Judea had to offer. Plumes, for writing, plucked from the largest of birds. And, fishermen, able to write sentences, hand-picked by humanity’s (to this day) still enduring Savior.

Yes, the best Jesus could find. The Gospels we get from them (the inside crew — those who actually walked with Jesus for three years) include a tax collector and a first century fisherman. Matthew and John. Much better credentials than the authors of the other two Gospels. Mark was Peter’s apostle. Luke was Paul’s apostle. Along with our Savior, we remain forever indebted to these four magnificent witnesses; yet, often plagued, divided (and endlessly frustrated) by their bungling commentary.

Indeed, before he left them, Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit. Yet, here's the deal. It is one thing to be given the Holy Spirit. It is another thing to actually LISTEN to Her. To err is human. All of them, Paul included, got hijacked by Pharisee Extremism. The proof is in the pudding.

What DID this new-found direction accomplish?

The founding of a country club.

Meanwhile, the sin of the world goes merrily on and on and on.

Jesus calls the Holy Spirit, “The Comforter.” Much of the commentary from Paul and the fishermen he caught is anything but “Comforting.” Many of their conclusions (to this day) define and terribly stagnate the untold wonders of Heaven & Earth. Passed down to us from a generation, unwilling to be “Comforted.” Thus, when they wrote to us, they remained the generation they were, possessing the vantage-point of a tribe of Neanderthals turned civilized by the Roman Empire. Even by our standards, a backward-mentality, malnourished by a drastically limited human perspective — one which, yes... includes not even the first clue as to what is a toilet.

I keep suggesting, a good place for us to start is at the site of the plane crash. Romans 6:16. However, we can go in any direction you would like. I am open to all good questions worth answering.

You ask, "Do you deny Paul as an Apostle, appointed by Christ himself?"

It is unquestionable that Holy Spirit is flowing throughout the first five and half chapters of Romans. However, at mile-marker 6:16, Paul dismisses what the Holy Spirit has been saying in favor of his own well-taught religious "sensibilities." All Scriptural evidence points to fact that Paul was a self-appointed "apostle of Christ." Paul's story that Jesus appeared to him on the Road to Damascus as "an apparition of light" is dubious, at best. The Scriptures do not confirm the Reality of it; actually, the Scriptures prove quite the opposite.