Inconsistency of Christians never being sinless

[Ghada]

"Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9 NKJV

Here is the Amplified Version/ commentary

No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him.

What? Christians only sinning a little are only practicing it, if they want to make it a habit? Who needs practice? We've all already learned how to sin habitually.

And while we're on it, I've never heard of anyone not committed to fornicating, while fornicating. Getting drunk too. Dittoes stealing. So far as the jilted husband, tavern keeping, and cop is concerned, they're all practicing experts.

I got it. This is the Christian gospel of no longer seeking to enjoy sinning like before, but the devil just keeps coming around from time to time to rub our faces back in it against our will. We'll do it, but by God we certainly won't enjoy it!

Right. I'll stick with the Bible, without the dishonest sinners amplified version.

I mean, just be honest. You still sin, because you still enjoy it from time to time. You try to make it less often to be a better Christian. I understand and get that. But just lay off all the silly doctrinal excuses for it already. Own it, I say! At least it's honest.

It's like one honest Muslim convert said. It's a great religion, and it's done wonders for his life, but he just can't kick the pork.

Now, that is someone I can at least respect and talk to on an honest adult level. All this Christian preaching and teaching of how we can't just kick the sinning, is getting really sickening.

I mean, I've never seen so many myriad ways to just say, I'm saved, but I still sin like the world. Just less. See how simple that is? I mean, that's all that's being preached, believed, and lived. Why all the other hijinks to make it sound like 'something else', that sounds more holy and pure and true??

We are to reckon our old selves as dead, dead to our old ways

We can reckon whatever we want, but like the old Kentuckian would say, if we're doing it, he reckons we're still doing it.

The holy reckoning of God in the Bible, is not the unholy reckoning of man, that reckons we can believe something, and that makes it so.

C'mon, be serious. You see how fatuous all this stuff is? It's just smoke blown in the face of normal intelligence.

Just preach it like it is, no apologies needed, especially not excuses.

We are Christians saved by grace through faith alone, and we are still sinning as before, but just not as much.

There, sweet, simple, and accurate for your gospel. You can add this too: We now favor neighborliness and law and order, above neighborhood and community strife.

There you go, standard Christian religion for continued sinners, without all the silly adornments to make it look holy and spiritually cool.

 

[Ghada]

All people are born spiritually dead.

Christ is not the maker of sinful souls, spirits, and/or bodies. Nor does He accept the devil's help to do it. (John 1)

 

[Ghada]

We are sinners, whether we know God's law or not.

You are.

Another point. Why do sinning Christians get to always talk about 'we', as though they are the final and only example of Christians in life?

What about we righteous Christians, not sinning like you? Don't 'we' get a voice in the matter?

Do you really believe there's 'safety in numbers'? Do you really think, that even if everyone were doing it, much less only you thinking that's true, that somehow excuses anyone from sinning against God? The flood proved that theory wrong. Noah escaped the destruction, because he wasn't doing it like them nor you.

BUT we still fail to control ourselves and backslide.

Yes you certainly do. Where in your gospel, do you become God to know all things of all people on earth?

I know, you're just speaking for you and your church according to your own local doctrine. Fair enough.

 

[Ghada]

When we become Christians, we are forgiven our sins, (past, present and future)

Then according to the Bible you can't be sinning at all. It's not possible. When God forgives us of sinning, then not only is the sin separated from us as east and west, but also the knowledge of sinning is forgotten and remembered no more by God. And so, such forgiven sinning cannot be judged nor condemned by God.

That's what you teach. And so, if you are already forgiven of all sinning, then there is no knowledge of you sinning anymore, and no condemnation possible for what does not exist anymore in God's judgement.

Where there is no condemnation by God, then there can't be any sinning against God in the first place.

Therefore, you can't possibly be sinning at all anymore, since God knows nothing of it, and cannot condemn it.

You have pulled off the perfect doctrinal trick: you are preaching sinless Christianity, where forgiven Christians cannot possibly be sinning, because they can't possibly be judged and condemned for sinning by God. You are officially doctrinally sinless!

Otherwise, God is a liar to know you are sinning.

And, yet you preach unbelief in your own gospel, when ever you call yourself a sinner, that is still sinning against God.

So, which is it. Are you already forgiven of all sinning by God, or are you still a sinning sinner in sight of God?

This is the Christian gospel of no longer judging nor condemning ourselves for sinning, and neither can God, because we believe and teach that He can't, because we believe and teach already been forgiven of all sinning.

I'll stick with the Bible, and avoid all this dysfunctional doctrinal confusion, that we can only be forgiven of old sins that are past.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Btw, they were all future when Christ died for them.

When Jesus paid the death price for them. He died for our sins to be forgiven by repentance and believing His gospel, that are past repented lives are now all forgiven and washed away.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

The death price of Jesus has not reconciled God to sinning with man now.

In the Bible, there is no present sinning forgiven while committing it. And there is no future sinning done, because tomorrow has not even come.

The is however a god, that does freely forgive all sinning of all men everywhere past, present, and future. In fact, so long as we are sinning, he's happy.

 

[Ghada]

So our spirit is cleansed, born, a Temple where God dwells, separate from our flesh - where sin still dwells.

And now the good ol' soul and spirit separation from the body and 'its' deeds.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we now have the Christian gospel of converting and saving the soul and spirit, but not the life we live. It's deliverance of the soul and spirit, from having anymore responsibility for the life we live.

It's not my fault Mommy! My body did it, not meee!

You see how all this doctrinal excuse making gets so obviously childish? I mean, do you really think you're fooling any normal adult in the world, just because you keep telling yourself this stuff? Seriously? You are no more held responsible for what your body does today on earth?

A God and Deliverer that does not save and deliver the life we live, is not the God and Deliverer of the children of Israel out of Egypt, not still in it.

 

[Ghada]

Like newborns, we must learn about our new life and self control over temptations.

You mean filthy newborn sinners as at the first, right? You're born again a sinner, but with a new start to sin less than before. It's your Christian reboot and restart, to hopefully not be so filthy as before.

The Bible newborn conversion is being pure born of God, even as Jesus from the womb of Mary.

All old things are not perfectly past away, and all things are no instantly and perfectly new and all of God.

And the Bible growth of the pure newborn of God, is to grow in knowledge, godliness, and charity, while remaining pure born of God as at the first. Even as Jesus from His youth up.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

The Holy Spirit sanctified us spiritually in an instant but does that mean our behavior becomes instantly holy and pure, loving and Christlike? No

Certainly not, since there be many Christs. Some sinful, some created, and some just spirit without flesh.

Only the Jesus Christ of the Bible gives birth by perfect seed of God, to the pure and holy of soul, spirit, and body, with all things of life now being of God the Father.

The other Christs can make for decent religion and partial conversion of life, but never all.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Only those beginning without spot in life, can remain that way through Jesus Christ.

Those only reborn a sinner as before, can only work on sinning less than before.

 

[Ghada]

, the world would see this drastic transformation in everyone.

Sure they do. It's possible with every religion of man, whether Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, etc...

They even see a drastic change in committed Hari Krishna's.

But, if God does not see the one simple change of repenting from sinning, then He still sees the same old sinner as before with lust of heart, no matter how much the life is cleaned up by later partial repentance.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

The charity of God is never in the heart of lust, but only in the pure heart, soul, and life of His pure born sons, who are now born into the image of His dear Son.

Gradually the Spirit transforms us into the likeness of Christ;

Gradually progressive Christian religion of partial outward repentance and sanctification of our own will.

Always repenting to sin less, never repenting to cease sinning at all. (2 Peter 2)

so it takes years, even decades to gain control, to say no to sin, be more forgiving, kind, loving, patient, joyful, faithful, hopeful, etc.,

True. Man's religion usually does, more or less. Years to sin less, but never to go and sin not.

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

Your Christian religion does not agree with the Bible commandments of Jesus and His apostles.

You know it, now I know it, and so just keep preaching it loudly for yourself, and stop saying 'we'.

Afterall, I certainly don't say 'we' when preaching my gospel of perfect pure born conversion, salvation, and deliverance from sinning all at once.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Christ is not the maker of sinful souls, spirits, and/or bodies. Nor does He accept the devil's help to do it. (John 1)

Who said He was? You are twisting and misrepresenting what I said - again!
We inherited a sinful nature from Adam - or haven't heard that doctrine before?

You are (a sinner)

You are too. You twist and distort the integrity of my words, in essence bearing false witness against your neighbor, judging me. That's sin.

Why do sinning Christians get to always talk about 'we', as though they are the final and only example of Christians in life?

You can remove yourself from the Body, speak for yourself. I speak of a common fundamental doctrine: we are sinners (but by the grace of God, have been forgoven).

What about we righteous Christians, not sinning like you? Don't 'we' get a voice in the matter?

Reminds me of the scripture that speaks of a self righteous man who prays to God and thanks God that he is not like the other wretched sinners and another man, the humble sinner prays for forgiveness.

Then according to the Bible you can't be sinning at all. It's not possible

Forgiven sinners.

So, which is it. Are you already forgiven of all sinning by God, or are you still a sinning sinner in sight of God?

Spiritually cleansed but still have this unredeemed body, flesh where sin dwells.

Here we now have the Christian gospel of converting and saving the soul and spirit, but not the life we live.

Nope. Your did not read my post correctly and misinterpreted what I said. I said we are instantly sanctified (spiritually), but then we begin to grow and eventually bear fruit. So our minds, lives, behavior transforms. As we feed on the nourishment of the Word, we grow to be more loving. We examine ourselves and grow more mature, in control of our actions.

It's not my fault Mommy! My body did it, not meee!

Sin means it is your fault whether you are saved or not.

You mean filthy newborn sinners as at the first, right? You're born again a sinner, but with a new start to sin less than before.

We are all "like dirty rags", says the Lord.

Study this verse. There is no way around it.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."
1 John 1:8-10

Turn the first sentence around to mean the exact same thing. >> If the truth is in us, then we must claim to have sin.

It is not only self-delusion to believe in one’s own sinlessness, but it is a personal attack on God’s character. God’s evaluation of humanity is that we are such hopeless sinners that only a sinless saviour from heaven could rescue us. And so evangelicals have long described themselves as ‘forgiven sinners’, ‘sinners saved by grace’, and ‘not good, just forgiven’. The point is to highlight God’s grace in saving us.

The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. That us not a command to non-believers, since they reject Hid and the Bible. Heck, Catholics go to confession weekly.
Oh, please read the following scriptures that Scott Downey shared too. Paul was struggling as all Christians _ at times _ with the flesh. The spirit wars against the flesh and vice versa, a spiritual battle going on in us ... and this becomes less of an issue as we grow. Certainly a.mature Christian is at peace most of the time. I lose my patience ... still Gid is working on tha with me. I have become more of a giver, less judmental, more loving, kind, etc. ... and He is still not done with me. But I guess you feel that you are perfect, pure and everyone who knows you sees you as a Saint? Yeah ... sure.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Romans 9:18
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 2:3-5

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The others did not have mercy given to them by God, which is why they remained as children of wrath.
For His GREAT LOVE towards some, God made them which He greatly loved to be given His mercy to be saved, but not the others.

​

 

[Scott Downey]

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

Ezekiel 18:4
“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

Matthew 20:14-16
New King James Version
14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’
16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For[a] many are called, but few chosen.”

John 17:6
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

​

 

[Scott Downey]

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who [g]sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”
13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Romans 9:18
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Ephesians 2:3-5
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

The Others, He hardened, those God did not show to them His mercy for them to be saved.
For whatever reason, it happens according to God's purposes.

Ephesians 1 exposes these things as well, written by Paul only to those called to be the saints.

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Scott Downey]

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

Because of His great love towards us, we were chosen in Christ before the world was made. God knew us as His own people from before the beginning of time, before we were born or had done anything good or bad. He chose us in His love to belong to Him. Since this was before our time, this is all on Him, being His own will and plan, and he made us accepted into the beloved. The beloved is of course them, the Godhead and the family of God. So therefore, he ordered our steps, in our time, during our life born on earth, to receive Christ as Lord.

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

Because of His great love towards us, we were chosen in Christ before the world was made. God knew us as His own people from before the beginning of time, before we were born or had done anything good or bad. He chose us in His love to belong to Him. Since this was before our time, this is all on Him, being His own will and plan, and he made us accepted into the beloved. The beloved is of course them, the Godhead and the family of God. So therefore, he ordered our steps, in our time, during our life born on earth, to receive Christ as Lord.

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Thanks for all the Scriptures, you have more patience than I. It is a good teaching for those who should have learned these things in the beginning of their walk with Christ. It might not be Christianity 101, but it isn't advanced theology, though to some, confusing.
Paul struggled with the flesh as we all do, that inner spiritual battle with the flesh.
This is zinger that is a stumbling block and takes a while to grasp:
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Rom. 7:14-17

 

[Scott Downey]

Thanks for all the Scriptures, you have more patience than I. It is a good teaching for those who should have learned these things in the beginning of their walk with Christ. It might not be Christianity 101, but it isn't advanced theology, though to some, confusing.
Paul struggled with the flesh as we all do, that inner spiritual battle with the flesh.
This is zinger that is a stumbling block and takes a while to grasp:
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Rom. 7:14-17

Paul also gives the correct answer to the flesh problem, how it is waging war against God. And it is the mercy of God for those He loves with His great love to make them born of God, like Peter states too, abundant mercy from God. otherwise you can not be saved and delivered from this evil age in which we find ourselves.

We also know Paul is a chosen apostle and a saved person.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@Ghada

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 8, believers LIVE according to the Spirit, Christ tells us in John 5 this,

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Sonship Through the Spirit​

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba,[e] Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

From Suffering to Glory​

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

 

[Scott Downey]

More teaching on the war between the flesh and the Spirit.​

v17 God is at work in you to keep you from doing the things the flesh desires, such as the listed works of the flesh v19 thru 21.

Galatians 5
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [g]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

In other words, come to grips with your own salvation, ordained by God

• Come to Grips Meaning Definition: To cope with; to manage a problem.

Philippians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

 

[Hepzibah]

Two interpretations of Romans 7 have dominated church history and are, the so called Primitive (pre Christian) and the Post-Primitive (normal Christian). Augustine held to the Primitive in his early years but he changed his position to the Post-Primitive at a later date. The reason that he changed his position was because of the heated discussions with Pelagius. There is another view held from the start but it says that perfection or Theosis is not only possible, but expected 1Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1Thes 4:3 For this is the will of God even your sanctification 1Peter 1:16 Be ye holy for I am holy.

This view was always held in the minority and was the opposite of the view held by Augustine until he changed to the new third way. There are only three interpretations of Romans 7 and which one we accept shows our whole attitude and position about this important doctrine. It is explaining the struggle of a man before coming to Christ or a man afterwards and the man afterwards, is either unable to stop sinning or perfect or rather, being purified.

The Primitive view is that Romans 7 describes the salvation experience and Paul is writing as an unregenerate soul. Augustine said “It is understood that man is here described who was never under grace” on Romans 7, Homilies. This is the view that Augustine held until Pelagius challenged him over his view that man is totally depraved.

“In his argument, Pelagius referred to the passage under consideration, saying that this was a palpable case in which, by the universal assent of the church, the state and character of the unregenerate man is described. He then asked, if approving the right, and hating the the wrong, and 'delighting in the law of God' did not imply that there was something good even in such a man?

Augustine could not deny the fact, the case being so palable, of the universal agreement of the church in the deduction that it was the unregenerate man referred to in the passage; nor did he perceive how, admitting the correctness of the universally received exposition, he could meet the argument of his opponent. Under such perplexity, Augustine denied the validity of his own and the universal, and adopted the few and before, unheard of, exposition, a most needless resort and a most calamitous one for the spiritual good of the church” J Schmidz (Romans 7)


Augustine did not change to Pelagius’ view:
Pelagius taught that man could stop sinning. Pelagius was trying to show Augustine that Romans 7 was not the so called Primitive view but the Apostolic view.. Augustine realised his first view was untenable that Paul described the unregenerate but the second view was untenable for Augustine because it says that man can indeed stop sinning as we clearly see in Romans 6 and 1 John.

Pelagius taught the Apostolic view which is that Paul is speaking about the (carnal) believer in Romans 7 but is not the normal condition of a man which is the stance Augustine changed to. Those who do not accept the view that it is a (carnal) Christian speaking point to the fact that there is no mention of grace or of the work of the Holy Spirit in the chapter. But this is not because there is no Holy Spirit or grace. Far from it. The opposite is true actually. But the person describing the event is not aware of it. It seems as though God has deserted actually, as the person comes to an extreme point because God is convicting the man of his sinfulness, which is known in revivals.

Paul is discussing experience here not doctrine. He came to a point of time when he saw himself as God saw him as he sought righteousness through the works of the law, even good practices. And all Christians seek to do this unless they adopt Augustines’ position and excuse their sin which is the position held by Calvinists.

In the Bible, salvation sanctification and justification are all one event but describing the differing aspects of it. This means that one is not really saved until they are perfected which is the Orthodox view. Jesus came to save us from our sins and until this is done, then we are still in them and not saved even though we have been given 'The power to become the son's of God' as a possibility but not yet an actuality until the provision of sanctification through the cross, is appropriated by man and he is delivered from not just the penalty from sin but also the power and the presence.


To say that Romans 7 cannot be the experience of a (carnal) Christian only means that the person has not experienced it themselves. Many saints have and this is why they say along with Pelagius that this is the experience of the (carnal) Christian, under the hand of God, being shown the utter utter inability of man to be righteous by obeying His law whilst still in the flesh. The crisis experience described by Paul, has to be gone through in order to come out in Romans 8, walking in the Spirit and pleasing God at last.

This Apostolic view has been rejected by most of the church through the ages and the reason why Pelagius has had such treatment. By his dispute with Augustine and his understanding of Romans 7, it is my contention that he did not teach that the Christian could stop sinning on his own accord. Far from it. It needed the divine interaction of God to bring about the change needed to get Paul from Romans7 to Romans 8.

Perhaps some are misled to think that Pelagius’ denial of original sin means that the man born innocent remains so. This is a presupposition. All men fall just like Adam and become sinners in need of salvation. It is thought that it occurs somewhere around the fourth year of life.

 

[Ghada]

This is indeed a great misunderstanding.

So you say. When someone just disagrees, without correcting any point, then it's just disagreeing as a personal choice.