Interpreting Romans 6:23 In Context

[Hidden In Him]

The whole Chapter is important if you're going to discuss the subject there. Even the previous Roman Chapters have direct relevance also.

Absolutely, Davy. I'd be glad to go over the surrounding texts with you eventually here, but for starters tell me what your response would be to Post #37.

Blessings in Christ, and hope you have a great Sunday.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Simple. If we follow a life of sin, the wage for it is death, even eternal death. But if we remain in Christ, then we have the gift of God of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul reiterates this further in Romans 8.

Rom 8:1-14
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
KJV

I fully agree with this, btw. I think the only question here would be how we each define the term "remaining in Christ." I would regard righteousness (v.4, v.10, i.e. righteous conduct in one's daily affairs) and the mortification of the deeds of the body (v.13) to be the evidence of the Spirit abiding within us. Do you agree?

 

[Hidden In Him]

The subject of this passage is: Being transformed from walking in the flesh, to walking in the spirit, anew.

Yes!
What then, do you think about the conclusions I came to in Post #37?

Thanks for the post!

 

[Episkopos]

I understand your point, of course : ) But now, if you read my interpretation in Post #37, the gift spoken of there is actually bodily immortality at the moment of regeneration, yes? I would actually say that is something that is received my through Him or from Him than in Him. But I'm getting nitpick with you, LoL.

Hope you have a great Sunday, brother, and thanks for posting!

These little words can mean a world of difference....hence the need to look more closely at the text and compare the same ideas in other texts. Eternal life is not an immortality....it is a KIND of life. It is life on an eternal scale and grasp. It is a resurrection type of life that is away from the grasp of sin. It is a life that is hidden with God....in Zion. It is an abiding place where Jesus is...so that one sees as He saw and walks as He walked.

That life is found exclusively IN Christ. (so that is where the exclusivity lies)

The bible is a spiritual book...not a religious type of pagan book that promises Valhalla if you die grasping your bible and such. For the Christian who enters into Christ...life just never ends. Eternal life is an elevated life in the Spirit...that is also eternal in duration.

So then the translators of the bible into English had no idea what eternal life is....so they put a "through" in there...ignoring the obvious translation of "en" as "in"...as it is translated everywhere else.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So then the translators of the bible into English had no idea what eternal life is....so they put a "through" in there...ignoring the obvious translation of "en" as "in"...as it is translated everywhere else.

Ah... I went and checked, and yes. ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν (That's what I get for not providing my own translation).

But now, that having been said, you don't think the eternal life spoken of there is a reference primarily to bodily immortality? The text juxtaposes the gift of eternal life for serving God with the reward of death for serving sin...

I think you are over-spiritualizing the text, Episkopos, which is the problem I have with your interpretations sometimes.

 

[Episkopos]

Ah... I went and checked, and yes. ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν (That's what I get for not providing my own translation).

But now, that having been said, you don't think the eternal life spoken of there is a reference primarily to bodily immortality? The text juxtaposes the gift of eternal life for serving God with the reward of death for serving sin...

I think you are over-spiritualizing the text, Episkopos, which is the problem I have with your interpretations sometimes.

The bible is written on more than one level...and this INCLUDES the spiritual level...otherwise God is just a physical being like us...to be worshiped as a rock or a tree.

So if you eliminate the spiritual realm...you miss the kingdom of God...as the Jews did.

God is Spirit and He is looking for they who worship Him in Spirit. So then why wouldn't God give us access to the spiritual realm if He wanted that kind of worship?

And to spiritualize is to take away the temporal ramifications of being empowered by the Spirit. For instance is there a holiness that does not empower us to NOT sin? To think that being in the Spirit has no power over the flesh...is to spiritualize the meaning of the bible and take away it's power in our everyday lives.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Just a quickie:
Any study of Romans 6 has to take account of Romans 5:20-21. Paul has been teaching free grace and it appears that some of his opponents were accusing him of antinomianism, which charge he angrily rejects (Romans 3:8). So having declared that 'where sin abounded, grace did much more abound,' he foresees someone saying, "Oh! This is marvellous! Let's sin all the more so that God's grace will be magnified all the more." And wise teacher that he is, he meets the objection head-on. The Christian is a new creature in Christ Jesus and cannot continue to live in sin. Not that he doesn't sin at all - that's what Romans 7 is about - but he cannot live as he did.

Hey, Steve. Hope you are having a blessed day as well.

I agree with your statement that Romans 5:20-21 should be taken into account, especially v.21:
"20 And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly: 21 that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The words "unto eternal life" suggest a progression. If grace reigned in their lives through righteousness, it would lead to eternal life. This is the same pattern he used in Romans 6:22, where he stated: "But now being made free from sin, and 1. having become slaves to God, you 2. have your fruit unto holiness, and the end 3. everlasting life."

The pattern he is teaching then is this: God's grace, as manifest upon believers in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, must be allowed to reign in their lives to the point of their walking in righteousness. If this takes place, the end result will be everlasting life. This coincides too, with the following that I gave as my conclusion for the passage.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
- Now notice the language here. He now references the two distinct ends for those who serve these two masters. The end for those serving sin will be death, whereas the end for those who serve God, righteousness, and obedience (v.22, v.18-19, v.16), will be to receive the gift of God, i.e. eternal life through Christ Jesus. It will not be earned through works because it is a gift of God that can only be received through grace. But it will only be given to those who made themselves slaves of righteousness and walked as such. Those who called Him "Lord" but did not serve Him will not receive the gift of eternal life when all is said and done. They proved in this life that they preferred serving sin and disobedience rather than God.

When have some time, tell me what you think about this interpretation.

Thanks again!
Hidden

 

[Hidden In Him]

15: What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

I think its important to recognize the verse before this (v 14), says that ' sin has no dominion over you, since you are not under law, but grace.' We start with the understanding that we are already redeemed under God's grace. In fact if we continue to look above, we see that Paul has already covered how we have moved from death into life via the free gift of grace from God through Christ Jesus.

Hi, sister! Great to have you post. It's a pleasure reading posts that are so well-written : )

Now about your above quote, you have Paul stating that they were already redeemed. This may get a little technical here, but when the NT mentioned redemption, the vast majority of times it was referring to a future event; our bodily resurrection at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ (see Luke 21:28, Romans 8:23, Ephesians 1:14). Occasionally it was used of an event that has already occurred, but in such contexts Paul was referencing the harrowing of Hades, where the saints of the OT had indeed already been redeemed out of the underworld. Thus, to teach that the church in Heaven and the church on earth were one in Christ, Paul was likening his readers as having already been joined with them in Heaven, and now seated with them in heavenly places (see Ephesians 1:3, 7, and Colossians 1:14, 12-13).

I would say in light of these things that our physical, bodily redemption is still technically ahead of us, and as per the things I mentioned in Post #37 and #47, contingent upon whether we receive the gift of eternal life when all is said and done or not.

What do you think of my interpretation on that?
Thanks again for posting, and wonderful hearing from you again!

 

[Hidden In Him]

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid.
Grace, to be for us to forgive, is to surrender dishonesty (sin) to what is true.

16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves slaves to obey, his slaves you are to whom you obey; whether [as a slave] of sin unto death, or [as a slave] of obedience unto righteousness?
Whatever we surrender to, it merges with us, and we become obedient to it due to our surrender.

17 But God be thanked, that you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Though we were dishonest, we absolutely surrendered to Truth.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the slaves of righteousness.
We have been set free from a consciousness of dishonesty and was replaced by a consciousness of honesty.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the weakness of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members slaves to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members slaves to righteousness unto holiness.
When in in a consciousness of dishonesty, we become enslaved to the wants and needs of our fleshly self (body, mind, will, emotions) which has nothing to do with honesty or Truth; and so we become dishonest. Our enslavement forces us to resolve our created issues and agendas of dishonesty. So now surrender all our dishonesty to honesty/Truth.

20 For when you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.
For when we were dishonest we denied the truth.

21 What fruit then did you have in those things whereof you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Whatever we did in dishonesty was all for nothing (death). What we thought was something will turn out to be nothing.

22 But now being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
But now that we are honest and Truth has merged with our soul or spirit Being, whatever we say and do in consciousness of honesty will be according to Truth (God's-will).

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
The outcome of dishonesty is nothing for the Being or soul. Where the outcome of honesty is a Truth filled Being, or soul, of eternal life; since Truth is eternal and the only Reality.

Greetings, Invisibilis. I have to confess that I'm not that familiar with you and I can't say as I have a firm grasp on your theology yet.

Out of curiosity, what led you to turn the focus of this passage over to discussing honesty and dishonesty?
Blessings in Christ, and thanks for posting.

 

[Hidden In Him]

When you take Christ into your heart, and by believing in Him and repenting to the Father in Jesus name, He will forgive your sins, and give you eternal life. Remember that the only way to the Father is through His Son, for when you come in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ, you then recognize that Jesus' blood on the cross was shed for you. You are then accepting that gift that the Father is offering to you of His grace, unmerited favor, and telling the Father that you accept Christ's sacrifice for yourself.

romans6

Hi, n2theLight! Been awhile since we talked.

About the above, what would you say to my argument that the texts actually suggest the gift of eternal life is granted only after everything is said and done, after we've lived out our lives on earth (see Posts #37, and #47 especially).

Blessings, and thanks for responding : )

 

[Enoch111]

You are trying to deceive people!

People who know the truth also know that you are the deceiver and the purveyor of false doctrines. The wolf that you are accusing me of being.

 

[Davy]

I fully agree with this, btw. I think the only question here would be how we each define the term "remaining in Christ." I would regard righteousness (v.4, v.10, i.e. righteous conduct in one's daily affairs) and the mortification of the deeds of the body (v.13) to be the evidence of the Spirit abiding within us. Do you agree?

Yes, as evidence. But not how to address sin when we do slip up, because Paul showed in Romans 7 that slip ups are inevitable because of the body of sin.

 

[Invisibilis]

Greetings, Invisibilis. I have to confess that I'm not that familiar with you and I can't say as I have a firm grasp on your theology yet.

Out of curiosity, what led you to turn the focus of this passage over to discussing honesty and dishonesty?
Blessings in Christ, and thanks for posting.

Sin is being dishonest. To counteract sin is to be honest, and through continual faith (surrender + honesty) in Christ Jesus (Truth) one can remain honest, or live the way of truth.

 

[Enoch111]

Given the symbolism of masters and slaves used in this passage, v.23 suggests that while eternal life is indeed a free gift of God, receiving it will depend upon whether we gave ourselves to serving Him as Lord or not. Those who fail to do so will not inherit eternal life.

This is completely false. There are only two options: (1) either eternal life is a pure GIFT of the grace of God or (2) eternal life is earned, or inherited, or deserved.

Romans 6:23 plainly states that eternal life is the GIFT of God. Ephesians 2:8,9 plainly stated that salvation is the GIFT of God. Acts 2:38 plainly states that the Holy Spirit is the GIFT of God. Gifts from God cannot be earned or merited, otherwise they would be rewards, not gifts. This ties in with the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. So how can "a free gift" (which you admit) depend on what you do or not do?

 

[Enoch111]

God is Life and Jesus is Life. God is Eternal Life. And Jesus is Eternal Life. And those who receive Christ receive eternal life. That is how simple it is, and totally biblical.

Jesus said unto her, I am The Resurrection, and The Life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25,26).

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of The Word of Life; For The Life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you That Eternal Life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us... (1 John 1:1,2)

Note: All those words should have been capitalized since they speak of God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ.

So if anyone teaches that Eternal Life is earned, or merited, or deserved, he or she is a false teacher. The matter of surrender and obedience to God and Christ is a separate issue.

 

[Zachary]

Any study of Romans 6 has to take account of Romans 5:20-21.

Any study of Romans 6 has to take account verse 16 (see my sig).
What kind of death is Paul threatening, if you please?
.

 

[Zachary]

This is completely false. There are only two options: (1) either eternal life is a pure GIFT of the grace of God or (2) eternal life is earned, or inherited, or deserved. Romans 6:23 plainly states that eternal life is the GIFT of God. Ephesians 2:8,9 plainly stated that salvation is the GIFT of God. Acts 2:38 plainly states that the Holy Spirit is the GIFT of God. Gifts from God cannot be earned or merited, otherwise they would be rewards, not gifts. This ties in with the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. So how can "a free gift" (which you admit) depend on what you do or not do?

Gifts can be taken back.
Grace can be fallen from.
Seals can be broken.
Daddy gave a gift (a car) to his son, Johnny.
Daddy took the car back because of how Johnny used it.

Do I have to explain what the key NT words actually mean?

In the NT, the Greek indicates that “believe” is a present tense imperative verb!
Yes, a continuing belief-faith is necessary for continuing salvation-eternal life!
… Note the famous John 3:16 …
“… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him may have [present tense:
may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him should not perish
but have [present tense: continue to have] eternal life.”

“Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as being opposite sides of the same coin. Repent means to turn from one’s allegiance to sin and unbelief, whereas believe means to place one’s trust in Christ. Thus, when one is mentioned the other is implied … John never used the words repent, repentance, or faith to describe the way people are saved. Instead, he used believe since this term included all of these ideas.” (The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
.

 

[Ezra]

Remain in Christ ???
Yes, of course ... but WHAT exactly is required ???
This is the whole crux of the problem !!!
Believers do NOT understand WHAT is required !!!
Something is required !!! ... WHAT is it ???
C'mon, let's get real !!!
.

maybe you have the answer to remain in Christ is to abide in him by faith .the Holy spirit gives us what we need peter said His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness... where do we get this power by abiding in the true vine,, jesus said w/o me you can do nothing . how many can say we are bearing the fruit like jesus said bear fruit much fruit.. we all try our best but we do have failures . required? Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. the real good news is this
John 6:37

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

 

[Zachary]

John 6:37 “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

Absolutely true ... but Tommy can cast himself out.
Ever hear of being estranged from Christ and falling from grace? (Galatians 5:4)
.

 

[Ezra]

Absolutely true ... but Tommy can cast himself out.
Ever hear of being estranged from Christ and falling from grace? (Galatians 5:4)
.

that all depends on who you ask.... i have studied both sides of the coin . so let me ask at what exact point has one fell from Grace ?