Irrefutable proof that Jesus is God.

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Nancy

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I don't believe Jesus is God.
I believe that the best way to learn the truth about Jesus is to examine what he said about himself.

Hi Barney,
I too believe the best way to learn the truth is to look at what He said.

27 "for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.

28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”
John 16:27,28

I believe that "Jesus" is the only begotten Son of the Father because it was the Father's Spirit that overshadowed Mary and she conceived, and was told her by the angel to name her new born 'human' child, Jesus.

The 'Christ' was with and in the Father since before the foundations of the earth.

"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
John 17:5

God "spoke" the world into existence.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... (Yes, I know your NWT has "a god", and it's the only bible out there that does say that far as I know) ... He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
John 1:1-3

So, God created the world as He spoke His Word (Christ).
"All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." Jesus said this after the resurrection, before ascending back to the Father.

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."


So anyhow, I do believe Jesus was God incarnate in the flesh and walked this earth as a human, and He relinquished His glory from the foundations of the world, died, rose and received His glory once again. As well as the most awesome victory over evil, then, now and forever.

Just some of my thoughts. :)
 

justbyfaith

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Hi @BARNEY BRIGHT,

In John 14:28, it should be clear that the Father is greater than Jesus as concerning His humanity; not His Deity.

Concerning His Deity, Jesus and His Father are said to be equal; precisely because of the Father/Son relationship. In John 5:18, the apostle John, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, says that Jesus made Himself equal with God in that He said that God was His own Father.

In John 8:58, Jesus breaks normal grammatical usage to claim to be the great I AM of Exodus 3:14. And the Pharisees did not misunderstand Him. They picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:59, John 10:31-33). So it is clear that Jesus claimed to be God.

And He also claimed that the doctrine of His Deity is an essential to the salvation of the Christian. In John 8:24, Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I AM <He>, you will die in your sins." The <He> is in italics; it is included to bring clarity. So then, if it is not in the original Greek, Jesus was claiming that if you do not believe that He is the great I AM, you will die in your sins. If it does belong there, who is the <He> that Jesus is talking about? Verse 27 tells us plainly that in that moment they did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.
 

Truther

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I don't believe Jesus is God.
I believe that the best way to learn the truth about Jesus is to examine what he said about himself.

Jesus said at John 6:38- “I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.” Now to me, that statement is a bit puzzling if Jesus were God. Jesus said he did not come down from heaven to do his own will. He said that he came to do the will of the One who sent him. If Jesus is God, who sent him down from heaven? And why did Jesus yield to the will of that person?
He made a similar statement in the next chapter, at John 7:16 Jesus said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." So did Jesus teach his own ideas? Doesn't seem so, he said that his teachings belong to the One who sent him. I have to wonder: ‘Who sent Jesus? And who gave him the truths he taught?’ Wouldn’t that One be greater than Jesus? After all, the sender is superior to the one who is sent.
Consider, too, Jesus’ words at John 14:28: “You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” Based on that verse, how would you say Jesus viewed himself in relation to the Father? Jesus viewed God as his superior. Another example, notice what Jesus told his disciples as recorded at Matthew 28:18. That verse says: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” So did Jesus say that he always had all authority? God has always had all authority. So why did Jesus say all authority in heaven and on Earth has been given to him when the True God has always had all authority in heaven and on Earth? Since people say Jesus is God but the scriptures show that Jesus was given more authority who gave him more authority? God, but people say Jesus is God.
Here’s something else to consider: We’ve read that Jesus spoke of God as his heavenly Father. And when Jesus was baptized, a voice from heaven referred to Jesus as His Son. In fact, Jesus specifically called himself God’s Son. Now, if you wanted to teach me that two people are equal, what sort of family relationship might you use to illustrate the point? Two brothers? Perhaps identical twins? But Jesus referred to God as the Father and to himself as the Son. So, what message do you suppose Jesus is conveying? It seems to me Jesus is describing one individual as being older and as having more authority than the other.
Think about this: If person came up with such a fitting illustration of equality, that of brothers or twins. If Jesus really were God, don’t you think that Jesus, as the Great Teacher, would have thought of the same comparison—or an even clearer example of equality if that was what Jesus was teaching? But, instead, he used the terms “Father” and “Son” to describe his relationship with God, not one of equality.

If Jesus truly is God, wouldn’t you expect that Jesus’ disciples would have plainly said so?
Yet, nowhere in the Scriptures do we read of their teaching that. On the contrary, notice what one of Jesus’ early followers, the apostle Paul, wrote. At Philippians 2:9, he describes what God did after Jesus’ death and resurrection: “God exalted him [Jesus] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.” According to this verse, what did God do for Jesus? Doesn't the scriptures say God exalted him to a superior position?
But if Jesus were equal to God before he died and God later exalted him to a higher position, wouldn’t that put Jesus above God? How could anyone be superior to God?
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

C'mon, Barn!
 

Truther

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See in red below by definition The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are Persons. And we know for a fact God Incarnate is a Divine Person. Since Jesus Person is Divine so are the Father and Holy Spirit Divine Persons.

Dictionary definition



1a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons.


2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.


3. Sociology . an individual human being, especially with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.


4. Philosophy . a self-conscious or rational being.


5. the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.


6. the body of a living human being, sometimes including the clothes being worn: He had no money on his person.


7. the body in its external aspect: an attractive person to look at.


8. a character, part, or role, as in a play or story.


9. an individual of distinction or importance.


10. a person not entitled to social recognition or respect.


11. Law . a human being (natural person) or a group of human beings, a corporation, a partnership, an estate, or other legal entity (artificial person or juristic person) recognized by law as having rights and duties.


12. Grammar . a category found in many languages that is used to distinguish between the speaker of an utterance and those to or about whom he or she is speaking. In English there are three persons in the pronouns, the first represented by I and we, the second by you, and the third by he, she, it, and they. Most verbs have distinct third person singular forms in the present tense, as writes; the verb be has, in addition, a first person singular form am.


13. Theology . any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
It would be easier to call God, "God", than all of that.
 

APAK

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@Christophany @Truther A scripture passage that has caused much confusion by disregarding especially the context: when, who, and where it was said...and who was in attendance. and who was Jesus and his connection with his Father.

1. I know when these words were penned, commas were not used although when spoken, a pause between 'my Lord' 'and my God' was definitely a real possibility.
2. The other apostles never called Jesus their Lord AND God (Father)...ever
3. The spirit of the Father was indeed resident inside Jesus although Jesus is never the Father. They are separate and yet work as one 'spirit.' Thomas was giving credit and worship to Christ and his Father. Thomas knew both were present, as separate spirits.

So @BARNEY BRIGHT has a point, indeed.

I would not be too quick to dispel what he has said.

Bless you,

APAK
 
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ChristisGod

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@Christophany @Truther A scripture passage that has caused much confusion by disregarding especially the context: when, who, and where it was said...and who was in attendance. and who was Jesus and his connection with his Father.

1. I know when these words were penned, commas were not used although when spoken, a pause between 'my Lord' 'and my God' was definitely a real possibility.
2. The other apostles never called Jesus their Lord AND God (Father)...ever
3. The spirit of the Father was indeed resident inside Jesus although Jesus is never the Father. They are separate and yet work as one 'spirit.' Thomas was giving credit and worship to Christ and his Father. Thomas knew both were present, as separate spirits.

So @BARNEY BRIGHT has a point, indeed.

I would not be too quick to dispel what he has said.

Bless you,

APAK
Lets see what the Apostles who were inspired by God to record in Scripture

Matthew
Matthew said He was Immanuel, God with us- Matthew 1:23

John
John said the Word was God and the Word became flesh John 1:1,14
John said Jesus is the True God and Eternal Life- 1 John 5:20
John said Jesus is the I AM ( YHWH) the Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last- Revelation 22:12-13
John said Jesus is the Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega- Revelation 1:8

Thomas
Thomas said Jesus was His Lord and His God- John 20:28

Peter
Peter said Jesus is our God and Savior- 2 Peter 1:1

James
James said Jesus is the Lord that elders call upon to heal the sick- James 5-14
James said the Prophets spoke in His name YHWH- James 5-10

Jude
Jude said He is YHWH, the Only Sovereign and Lord- Jude 1:4
Jude said Jesus is the Lord( YHWH) who delivered his people out of Egypt- Jude 1:8

Paul
Paul says Jesus is our God and Savior- Titus 2:13
Paul says Jesus is YHWH( Lord)- Romans 10:13 and Joel 2:32

Author of Hebrews
He said Jesus is the Creator who is YHWH that made everything and called Him God- Hebrews 1:8-10

Jesus
Jesus said He is the I Am ( YHWH)- John 8:58
Jesus said he who has seen Me has seen the Father- John 14:9
Jesus said He was EQUAL with the Father- John 5:17-18
 

farouk

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Lets see what the Apostles who were inspired by God to record in Scripture

Matthew
Matthew said He was Immanuel, God with us- Matthew 1:23

John
John said the Word was God and the Word became flesh John 1:1,14
John said Jesus is the True God and Eternal Life- 1 John 5:20
John said Jesus is the I AM ( YHWH) the Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last- Revelation 22:12-13
John said Jesus is the Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega- Revelation 1:8

Thomas
Thomas said Jesus was His Lord and His God- John 20:28

Peter
Peter said Jesus is our God and Savior- 2 Peter 1:1

James
James said Jesus is the Lord that elders call upon to heal the sick- James 5-14
James said the Prophets spoke in His name YHWH- James 5-10

Jude
Jude said He is YHWH, the Only Sovereign and Lord- Jude 1:4
Jude said Jesus is the Lord( YHWH) who delivered his people out of Egypt- Jude 1:8

Paul
Paul says Jesus is our God and Savior- Titus 2:13
Paul says Jesus is YHWH( Lord)- Romans 10:13 and Joel 2:32

Author of Hebrews
He said Jesus is the Creator who is YHWH that made everything and called Him God- Hebrews 1:8-10

Jesus
Jesus said He is the I Am ( YHWH)- John 8:58
Jesus said he who has seen Me has seen the Father- John 14:9
Jesus said He was EQUAL with the Father- John 5:17-18
Good verses and plenty more, too.

The Biblical evidence for the Lord Jesus' Deity is overwhelming.
 
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justbyfaith

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@Christophany @Truther A scripture passage that has caused much confusion by disregarding especially the context: when, who, and where it was said...and who was in attendance. and who was Jesus and his connection with his Father.

1. I know when these words were penned, commas were not used although when spoken, a pause between 'my Lord' 'and my God' was definitely a real possibility.
2. The other apostles never called Jesus their Lord AND God (Father)...ever
3. The spirit of the Father was indeed resident inside Jesus although Jesus is never the Father. They are separate and yet work as one 'spirit.' Thomas was giving credit and worship to Christ and his Father. Thomas knew both were present, as separate spirits.

So @BARNEY BRIGHT has a point, indeed.

I would not be too quick to dispel what he has said.

Bless you,

APAK
They are distinct, not separate.
 

APAK

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Lets see what the Apostles who were inspired by God to record in Scripture

Matthew
Matthew said He was Immanuel, God with us- Matthew 1:23

John
John said the Word was God and the Word became flesh John 1:1,14
John said Jesus is the True God and Eternal Life- 1 John 5:20
John said Jesus is the I AM ( YHWH) the Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last- Revelation 22:12-13
John said Jesus is the Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega- Revelation 1:8

Thomas
Thomas said Jesus was His Lord and His God- John 20:28

Peter
Peter said Jesus is our God and Savior- 2 Peter 1:1

James
James said Jesus is the Lord that elders call upon to heal the sick- James 5-14
James said the Prophets spoke in His name YHWH- James 5-10

Jude
Jude said He is YHWH, the Only Sovereign and Lord- Jude 1:4
Jude said Jesus is the Lord( YHWH) who delivered his people out of Egypt- Jude 1:8

Paul
Paul says Jesus is our God and Savior- Titus 2:13
Paul says Jesus is YHWH( Lord)- Romans 10:13 and Joel 2:32

Author of Hebrews
He said Jesus is the Creator who is YHWH that made everything and called Him God- Hebrews 1:8-10

Jesus
Jesus said He is the I Am ( YHWH)- John 8:58
Jesus said he who has seen Me has seen the Father- John 14:9
Jesus said He was EQUAL with the Father- John 5:17-18

Before you spray all this scripture and want me to rebutt all of it, or even agree with you, please read again what I wrote. I think you pulled the trigger prematurely.

I spoke of the context of the scripture in question. Can you just address this scripture and its setting when it was spoken....did the apostles call Christ God in this setting? Of course they did not...that was my point....I can address your line of scripture at another time I guess if you want..

Thanks

APAK
 

ChristisGod

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Before you spray all this scripture and want me to rebutt all of it, or even agree with you, please read again what I wrote. I think you pulled the trigger prematurely.
I spoke of the context of the scripture in question. Can you just address this scripture and its setting when it was spoken....did the apostles call Christ God in this setting? Of course they did not...that was my point....I can address your line of scripture at another time I guess if you want..

Thanks

APAK
I'm not sure how you can deny Thomas plain words in the text when he said to Jesus : my Lord and my God. The other verses also confirm that Jesus is both Lord and God, Lord and Savior, God and Savior, Only Sovereign and Lord. Alpha and Omega, First and Last etc......
 
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101G

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For example, the Father did not die on the cross, and the Spirit did not die on the cross--only Jesus did.
if I may ask, who is this then, Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
now before you answer, we suggest you read the context of the scriptures, a few before this verse, as to who is Speaking. was this the LORD the Father, or was it the Lord, the Son speaking here in Zechariah 12:10. again read the verses before and find out who is speaking. and then tell us who was "pierced" on the cross.

will be looking for your answer.


PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Hi justbyfaith,
Where at John 14:28 did John under inspiration of Gods Holy Spirit say that the Father was greater as concerning Jesus humanity, not his diety? I believe what God's Holy Spirit inspired men to write down. I don't see what you're saying written down in this scripture anywhere.

At John 5:18 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit John said that Jesus only said that God was his Father. Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit John said It was the Pharisees that said Jesus was making himself equal to God. By the way John under the inspiration of Gods Holy Spirit also said it was the Pharisees that said Jesus was breaking the Sabbath, do you believe Jesus was guilty of that because John under the inspiration of Gods Holy Spirit said that the Pharisees said he was guilty of that? Also when the Pharisees accused Jesus that he was making himself equal with God John under inspiration of Gods Holy Spirit penned Jesus answer to them by saying, "the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing."
It seems to me that by Jesus saying this, he was showing the Jews that he was not equal to God and therefore could not act on his own initiative.

At John 8:58 we have to remember that Jesus spoke to the Jews in the Hebrew language of his day.
How Jesus said John 8:58 to the Jews is therefore presented to us in the modern translations by Hebrew scholars who translated the Greek into the Bible Hebrew, as follows: Dr. Franz Delitzsch: “Before Abraham was, I have been.” Isaac Salkinson and David Ginsburg: “I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham.” In both of these Hebrew translations the translators use for the expression “I have been” two Hebrew words, both a pronoun and a verb, namely, aní hayíthi; they do not use the one Hebrew word: Ehyéh which is at Exodus 3:14 translated "I AM. So they do not make out that in John 8:58 Jesus was trying to imitate Jehovah God and give us the impression that he himself was Jehovah, the I AM.
 

APAK

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I'm not sure how you can deny Thomas plain words in the text when he said to Jesus : my Lord and my God. The other verses also confirm that Jesus is both Lord and God, Lord and Savior, God and Savior, Only Sovereign and Lord. Alpha and Omega, First and Last etc......

I see you do not really want to analyze the scripture in context. I hear an emotional appeal in your voice and words. I do not learn the truth in scripture based on a common psychological bandwagon effect technique to win me over. I do not join the common wagon of thought here. I just don't discover and learn scripture that way. I learn through meditation in the Spirit and prayer and through other mature believers well-versed in scripture. The words of Thomas and his new founded belief in his Lord as his Savior and also his God who made it happen is obvious to me. It is not that obvious I see to you.

And then you needed more support by adding new selected phrases that are meaningless by themselves. Another indictment regarding 'your level' of understanding scripture. Just answer my initial point and stop confusing it by all the fluff.

Thanks again

APAK
 

ChristisGod

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I see you do not really want to analyze the scripture in context. I hear an emotional appeal in your voice and words. I do not learn the truth in scripture based on a common psychological bandwagon effect technique to win me over. I do not join the common wagon of thought here. I just don't discover and learn scripture that way. I learn through meditation in the Spirit and prayer and through other mature believers well-versed in scripture. The words of Thomas and his new founded belief in his Lord as his Savior and also his God who made it happen is obvious to me. It is not that obvious I see to you.

And then you needed more support by adding new selected phrases that are meaningless by themselves. Another indictment regarding 'your level' of understanding scripture. Just answer my initial point and stop confusing it by all the fluff.

Thanks again

APAK
I see so you are claiming Jesus was his lord but not his god. That is what Unitarians also claim but cannot support it from the text.

BTW- the AND in bold was for a reason to show its one person not 2 persons being described in the text as all the other scriptures I provided prove.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

C'mon, Barn!
You C'mon, I'm not going to ignore what Jesus himself says about the kind of relationship he has with God. It's a Father and Son relationship. Even after Jesus goes into heaven it's shown to us in scripture that Jesus has a God.

And when it comes to the Apostle John you completely ignore to much of what God inspired him to write down. Like at John 20:17 after Jesus was resurrected a life giving Spirit who is immortal and incorruptible, Jesus Said unto Mary Magdalene, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Here Jesus who after his resurrection is a life giving Spirit who is immortal and incorruptible saying he has a Father and God who is the Apostles Father and God. I'm not going to ignore this.

I believe Jesus is a god. “God” means a strong one. Christ is called “The mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, “a god” at John 1:1 (NW), and “the only-begotten god” at John 1:18 (NW). Jehovah is not the only god or strong one. The very fact that he is called the Almighty God indicates that there are other gods not so mighty, not almighty like him. So Thomas could call Jesus God, but not THE God, and three verses later Jesus is called “the Son of God,” as we read (NW): “But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.” Joh 20:29-31 So there was no objection to John’s reporting that Thomas addressed Jesus as a deity, and certainly John does not say that Thomas’ address to Jesus was to make us believe that Jesus was The God, but says it was to make us believe Jesus was God’s Son. In this same chapter (Joh 20:17, NW) Jesus said: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” He was not ascending to himself.
 

ChristisGod

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You C'mon, I'm not going to ignore what Jesus himself says about the kind of relationship he has with God. It's a Father and Son relationship. Even after Jesus goes into heaven it's shown to us in scripture that Jesus has a God.

And when it comes to the Apostle John you completely ignore to much of what God inspired him to write down. Like at John 20:17 after Jesus was resurrected a life giving Spirit who is immortal and incorruptible, Jesus Said unto Mary Magdalene, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Here Jesus who after his resurrection is a life giving Spirit who is immortal and incorruptible saying he has a Father and God who is the Apostles Father and God. I'm not going to ignore this.

I believe Jesus is a god. “God” means a strong one. Christ is called “The mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, “a god” at John 1:1 (NW), and “the only-begotten god” at John 1:18 (NW). Jehovah is not the only god or strong one. The very fact that he is called the Almighty God indicates that there are other gods not so mighty, not almighty like him. So Thomas could call Jesus God, but not THE God, and three verses later Jesus is called “the Son of God,” as we read (NW): “But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.” Joh 20:29-31 So there was no objection to John’s reporting that Thomas addressed Jesus as a deity, and certainly John does not say that Thomas’ address to Jesus was to make us believe that Jesus was The God, but says it was to make us believe Jesus was God’s Son. In this same chapter (Joh 20:17, NW) Jesus said: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” He was not ascending to himself.
barney are you a jehovahs witness ?
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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@Christophany @Truther A scripture passage that has caused much confusion by disregarding especially the context: when, who, and where it was said...and who was in attendance. and who was Jesus and his connection with his Father.

1. I know when these words were penned, commas were not used although when spoken, a pause between 'my Lord' 'and my God' was definitely a real possibility.
2. The other apostles never called Jesus their Lord AND God (Father)...ever
3. The spirit of the Father was indeed resident inside Jesus although Jesus is never the Father. They are separate and yet work as one 'spirit.' Thomas was giving credit and worship to Christ and his Father. Thomas knew both were present, as separate spirits.

So @BARNEY BRIGHT has a point, indeed.

I would not be too quick to dispel what he has said.

Bless you,

APAK
Thank you
 
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