Irrefutable proof that Jesus is God.

[janc]

We know that Jesus is the Word of God and therefore the Holy Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is the personality, wisdom and power of God, it was not created it was the creater.

EVERYTHING was created through the Word, and without the Word NOTHING was created that is created.

What is the Word?

Through the Word of YHWH the heavens were made, and all their host through the SPIRIT of his mouth, for he SPOKE and it was.

Who came to Mary and became flesh?

The Holy SPIRIT will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore also the Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

What was mentioned before creation?

and the SPIRIT of God was hovering over the waters. And God SPOKE:...

The Word of God is the Spirit of God, it is not another separated person, it is God himself.

 

[Joseph77]

Yahweh is set apart.
Jesus is set apart.
They have been echad, one, eternally.
And they talk with each other , for our sakes, as seen throughout Scripture.
Disciples are to be echad, one, as written.
That does not make Peter and John the same person, they are echad, one in Christ Jesus.

 

[DPMartin]

We know that Jesus is the Word of God and therefore the Holy Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is the personality, wisdom and power of God, it was not created it was the creater.

EVERYTHING was created through the Word, and without the Word NOTHING was created that is created.

What is the Word?

Through the Word of YHWH the heavens were made, and all their host through the SPIRIT of his mouth, for he SPOKE and it was.

Who came to Mary and became flesh?

The Holy SPIRIT will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore also the Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

What was mentioned before creation?

and the SPIRIT of God was hovering over the waters. And God SPOKE:...

The Word of God is the Spirit of God, it is not another separated person, it is God himself.

look its not that hard to understand the three are three but one.

there is you then there is your word and then there is your presence which is you to anyone not you.

therefore there is God (the Father, of whom Jesus the Word of God says He is Son of) there is God's Word, and the Holy Spirit (God's Presence, Jesus states that God is a Spirit)

so, God, the Word of God, and the Presence of God which is God to anyone or thing that isn't God. living things are express themselves in the place they are or their presence.

even in the beginning God wasn't Present in His creation until His Spirit (His Presence) moved upon the face of the waters.


Gen 1:2　 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.　

so Jesus says He is the Son that is of His Father, so, just what is of a Spirit that is Almighty? that would be the expression thereof wouldn't it? but in God's case His Word goes out and returns to Him fulfilled to His satisfaction.


Gen 1:31　 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.　

 

[Joseph77]

look its not that hard to understand the three are three but one.

Really? How did Simon barjona learn and understand and know THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH, SON OF THE LIVING CREATOR ALMIGHTY ?

Most people never learn that , on earth, or in most churches on earth.

Yes, "easy" , when the Father reveals something,
but
"easy" for most ? no, as the Father reveals nothing to those in the flesh, etc ....

 

[DPMartin]

Really? How did Simon barjona learn and understand and know THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH, SON OF THE LIVING CREATOR ALMIGHTY ?

Most people never learn that , on earth, or in most churches on earth.

Yes, "easy" , when the Father reveals something,
but
"easy" for most ? no, as the Father reveals nothing to those in the flesh, etc ....

if you are saying one must be a intellectual then you are way off. also this is the second time you jumped in with a posting that shows no foreknowledge of the conversation at hand.

revelation of God by the will of God is presumed nimrod, and I don't mean skillful hunter.

 

[Joseph77]

if you are saying one must be a intellectual then you are way off.

You missed the point entirely.
The post you made said "it's not hard"

look its not that hard to understand the three are three but one.

but it is not a matter of if it is that hard or not to understand -
revelation of truth ,
revelation from God in heaven,
is needed just like was needed by Simon barjona to know that Jesus is Messiah,
same as is needed for any man to know anything, as written...

as for "intellectual" , Jesus said the opposite , right ? PRAISE GOD HE REVEALS TO INFANTS, the truth, and HIDES IT FROM the educated ones....

Finally, what you post is not what the point, nor the question was nor what it is.
THose things wrong, must be learned by revelation from God.
Those things truth, must be learned by revealtion from God.
Nothing is accepted unless learned/ proven truth, in line with Scripture (Berean's Way to test) ....

 

[justbyfaith]

True Trinity.

 

[Joseph77]

On some forums, it is required if posting a link, to tell the source or origin or subject of the link.
Or a short description.
Clicking on a link unknown is potential problems.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We know that Jesus is the Word of God and therefore the Holy Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is the personality, wisdom and power of God, it was not created it was the creater.

EVERYTHING was created through the Word, and without the Word NOTHING was created that is created.

What is the Word?

Through the Word of YHWH the heavens were made, and all their host through the SPIRIT of his mouth, for he SPOKE and it was.

Who came to Mary and became flesh?

The Holy SPIRIT will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore also the Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

What was mentioned before creation?

and the SPIRIT of God was hovering over the waters. And God SPOKE:...

The Word of God is the Spirit of God, it is not another separated person, it is God himself.

Just keep your mind open on this. The Trinity is a noble object of research and study. But I would warn you that Modalism is not orthodox Christian teaching. The idea that the Father is the Son, the Son is the Spirit, and the Spirit is the Father is Modalism, a doctrinal heresy.

The Trinitarian formula was established in the early centuries of the Christian Church because some began to confuse the persons of the Trinity, leading to confusion. To say the Son is the Spirit is confusing. Jesus was a man. The Spirit was not a man.

They are presented as three separate persons in the Scriptures for a reason. They are all one God, of one divine substance. But each of the three have their own separate "personalities," if you will. They have their own *distinctions" as distinct personalities.

I like to think of the Father as the "unbegotten Deity, who originates his eternal Word." The Son I like to think of as the Word made flesh, originating from the unoriginated Father and yet appearing in flesh for our fellowship and for our salvation. I like to think of the Spirit as the activity of God originating from the unoriginated Father, appearing in any place God wishes to reveal His activity.

If we confuse these different operations of the one God we will have trouble seeing the way God relates to us. He fellowships with us as the unbegotten God, shows us His person in the human Christ, and lives in us and works through us by His Spirit.

Since all three persons are God, they all contribute to this operation among men. But each person has his own function, which should not be confused. For example, the Father did not die on the cross, and the Spirit did not die on the cross--only Jesus did.

Both the Father and the Spirit were involved in this. The Father originated Jesus, as His word made flesh, and inspired Jesus to die on the cross for our sins. The Spirit was in Jesus identifying him as God and leading him to obey God the Father. I hope you'll try to understand, and let go of Modalism?

 

[Nancy]

Just keep your mind open on this. The Trinity is a noble object of research and study. But I would warn you that Modalism is not orthodox Christian teaching. The idea that the Father is the Son, the Son is the Spirit, and the Spirit is the Father is Modalism, a doctrinal heresy.

The Trinitarian formula was established in the early centuries of the Christian Church because some began to confuse the persons of the Trinity, leading to confusion. To say the Son is the Spirit is confusing. Jesus was a man. The Spirit was not a man.

They are presented as three separate persons in the Scriptures for a reason. They are all one God, of one divine substance. But each of the three have their own separate "personalities," if you will. They have their own *distinctions" as distinct personalities.

I like to think of the Father as the "unbegotten Deity, who originates his eternal Word." The Son I like to think of as the Word made flesh, originating from the unoriginated Father and yet appearing in flesh for our fellowship and for our salvation. I like to think of the Son as the activity of God originating from the originated Father, appearing in any place God wishes to reveal His activity.

If we confuse these different operations of the one God we will have trouble seeing the way God relates to us. He fellowships with us as the unbegotten God, shows us His person in the human Christ, and lives in us and works through us by His Spirit.

Since all three persons are God, they all contribute to this operation among men. But each person has his own function, which should not be confused. For example, the Father did not die on the cross, and the Spirit did not die on the cross--only Jesus did.

Both the Father and the Spirit were involved in this. The Father originated Jesus, as His word made flesh, and inspired Jesus to die on the cross for our sins. The Spirit was in Jesus identifying him as God and leading him to obey God the Father. I hope you'll try to understand, and let go of Modalism?

Hi Randy, good description of the Trinity. There is one thing I think you might want to change though. I think you meant Spirit here...highlighted in red...just so as not to confuse those new to the site, or the faith.

"I like to think of the Father as the "unbegotten Deity, who originates his eternal Word." The Son I like to think of as the Word made flesh, originating from the unoriginated Father and yet appearing in flesh for our fellowship and for our salvation. I like to think of the Son as the activity of God originating from the originated Father, appearing in any place God..."

Nothing big, just thought I'd let you know.

 

[justbyfaith]

On some forums, it is required if posting a link, to tell the source or origin or subject of the link.
Or a short description.
Clicking on a link unknown is potential problems.

The title of the link has the description of what is found therein.

 

[justbyfaith]

Just keep your mind open on this. The Trinity is a noble object of research and study. But I would warn you that Modalism is not orthodox Christian teaching. The idea that the Father is the Son, the Son is the Spirit, and the Spirit is the Father is Modalism, a doctrinal heresy.

The Trinitarian formula was established in the early centuries of the Christian Church because some began to confuse the persons of the Trinity, leading to confusion. To say the Son is the Spirit is confusing. Jesus was a man. The Spirit was not a man.

They are presented as three separate persons in the Scriptures for a reason. They are all one God, of one divine substance. But each of the three have their own separate "personalities," if you will. They have their own *distinctions" as distinct personalities.

I like to think of the Father as the "unbegotten Deity, who originates his eternal Word." The Son I like to think of as the Word made flesh, originating from the unoriginated Father and yet appearing in flesh for our fellowship and for our salvation. I like to think of the Son as the activity of God originating from the originated Father, appearing in any place God wishes to reveal His activity.

If we confuse these different operations of the one God we will have trouble seeing the way God relates to us. He fellowships with us as the unbegotten God, shows us His person in the human Christ, and lives in us and works through us by His Spirit.

Since all three persons are God, they all contribute to this operation among men. But each person has his own function, which should not be confused. For example, the Father did not die on the cross, and the Spirit did not die on the cross--only Jesus did.

Both the Father and the Spirit were involved in this. The Father originated Jesus, as His word made flesh, and inspired Jesus to die on the cross for our sins. The Spirit was in Jesus identifying him as God and leading him to obey God the Father. I hope you'll try to understand, and let go of Modalism?

The Father is the Spirit that dwells in the body of Jesus Christ (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11); and He was released back to the Father who inhabiteth eternity in Luke 23:46; to dwell side-by-side with Him outside of time.

The Father descended to become a Man (Isaiah 9:6).

It was not a 2nd God; and neither was it 1/3 of God, who descended.

This is not to say that there are no distinctions between the members of the Trinity.

The Father is a Spirit who inhabiteth eternity. The Son dwells in human flesh. The Holy Ghost is a Spirit who also inhabits eternity; but He has experiential knowledge of what it means to be human and is therefore the perfect intercessor. He also indwells us as the saints and is the Father.

If you ask me, I can prove all of this by holy scripture.

 

[justbyfaith]

PRAISE GOD HE REVEALS TO INFANTS, the truth, and HIDES IT FROM the educated ones....

Go and find that verse in holy scripture (Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21) and you will see that in it, Jesus calls the Father the Lord of heaven and earth.

There is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3).

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy, good description of the Trinity. There is one thing I think you might want to change though. I think you meant Spirit here...highlighted in red...just so as not to confuse those new to the site, or the faith.

"I like to think of the Father as the "unbegotten Deity, who originates his eternal Word." The Son I like to think of as the Word made flesh, originating from the unoriginated Father and yet appearing in flesh for our fellowship and for our salvation. I like to think of the Son as the activity of God originating from the originated Father, appearing in any place God..."

Nothing big, just thought I'd let you know.

Absolutely, and I appreciate it! I make mistakes all the time, and try to go back and fix. If you only knew how unbelievably bad my mistakes are sometimes! Well, I guess I just did. I noticed that I also said, in the same sentence, that the Son originated from the *originated* Father?

I had to changed that too! What I meant to say (in my head) was that the Spirit is the activity of God, extending outwards from the *unoriginated, unbegotten* God so that God appears in a variety of places so that we can see God work in our finite universe.

I was reading some of the early Church Fathers today as they described the Trinity. One of them used this term "unoriginated" to expose how the Arians tried to distinguish between the unoriginated God and the originated Son. The Arians wanted to remove the deity from Christ, while making only the Father divine. Jesus was in effect *created,* whereas God Himself was not.

This is best understood in the words of Origen, that the Word of God is generated from eternity such that the Word itself co-exists with the Father, and they are both eternal. But the Word descends out of eternity and into the finite realm of the created universe so that we can see God in our world.

The Word is thus both eternal God and His revelation within our world, where we can experience and see Him. As such, the Word also became flesh so that we could see God as a man.

Sorry, it's just a subject I love....

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Father is the Spirit that dwells in the body of Jesus Christ (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11); and He was released back to the Father who inhabiteth eternity in Luke 23:46; to dwell side-by-side with Him outside of time.

The Father descended to become a Man (Isaiah 9:6).

It was not a 2nd God; and neither was it 1/3 of God, who descended.

This is not to say that there are no distinctions between the members of the Trinity.

The Father is a Spirit who inhabiteth eternity. The Son dwells in human flesh. The Holy Ghost is a Spirit who also inhabits eternity; but He has experiential knowledge of what it means to be human and is therefore the perfect intercessor. He also indwells us as the saints and is the Father.

If you ask me, I can prove all of this by holy scripture.

Actually, you can't. I've heard it all before. For a short time I was in a modalistic cult, the Local Church under Witness Lee. I struggled trying to understand how it lined up with orthodox Christian teaching. I now know fairly well, although I have my own way of saying things.

Your approach would be something like if the Father is God, and God became flesh, then the Father became flesh also. That doesn't work though. To say God became flesh is not to say the Father, a person of the Trinity, became flesh. It is *how* the Father's deity became flesh that matters, because it was the Word of the Father that became flesh--not the Father Himself. The Father, by definition, does not change His person, but only reveals Himself through the agency of His Word and Spirit. The persons must not be confused.

God is a spirit. But the Father is not the Holy Spirit. Confusing? It can be. What you have to know is that each person, biblically, must maintain its personal distinction in order to be properly identified as such. The Father cannot become the Spirit, nor is the Father the Spirit. But it is true, the Father *is* spirit--His spirit is transcendent. The Holy Spirit, by contrast, reveals the transcendent spirit of God within the universe. That may be why the book of Revelation portrays the Spirit of God as "7 spirits?"

 

[justbyfaith]

Absolutely, and I appreciate it! I make mistakes all the time, and try to go back and fix. If you only knew how unbelievably bad my mistakes are sometimes! Well, I guess I just did. I noticed that I also said, in the same sentence, that the Son originated from the *originated* Father?

I had to changed that too! What I meant to say (in my head) was that the Spirit is the activity of God, extending outwards from the *unoriginated, unbegotten* God so that God appears in a variety of places so that we can see God work in our finite universe.

I was reading some of the early Church Fathers today as they described the Trinity. One of them used this term "unoriginated" to expose how the Arians tried to distinguish between the unoriginated God and the originated Son. The Arians wanted to remove the deity from Christ, while making only the Father divine. Jesus was in effect *created,* whereas God Himself was not.

This is best understood in the words of Origen, that the Word of God is generated from eternity such that the Word itself co-exists with the Father, and they are both eternal. But the Word descends out of eternity and into the finite realm of the created universe so that we can see God in our world.

The Word is thus both eternal God and His revelation within our world, where we can experience and see Him. As such, the Word also became flesh so that we could see God as a man.

Sorry, it's just a subject I love....

Actually, Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35) and then ascended to exist outside of time (Ephesians 4:10).

So, in His humanity He was indeed created (Romans 1:3, Isaiah 45:11); and yet is still the eternal God who inhabits eternity.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is *how* the Father's deity became flesh that matters, because it was the Word of the Father that became flesh--not the Father Himself.

You are assuming that a 2nd God therefore became flesh, or else 1/3 of God.

I will leave you to read the book of Isaiah wherein you will find that such an idea is implausible.

God is a Spirit. But the Father is not the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and the Holy Ghost is also the Spirit (John 7:39).

What you failed to mention or see is that the scriptures declare that there is only one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

 

[justbyfaith]

I do know and believe that there is a distinction between the Father and the Holy Ghost; for the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father (John 15:26). They are still the same Spirit according to Ephesians 4:4 and 1 Corinthians 12:4-6.

I do not preach modalism but my view of the Trinity is often decried as being modalistic since I emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in my preaching.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); the Father (Matthew 11:26, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9) and the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4).

There are not nine members in the Trinity.

With this in mind, read Ephesians 4:4-6 and 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 on your own time, as you read through these epistles; and I think you will get the message.

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

 

[justbyfaith]

The Father is a Spirit who inhabiteth eternity. The Son dwells in human flesh. The Holy Ghost is a Spirit who also inhabits eternity; but He has experiential knowledge of what it means to be human and is therefore the perfect intercessor. He also indwells us as the saints and is the Father.

If you ask me, I can prove all of this by holy scripture.

Actually, you can't.

I can.

The Father is a Spirit who inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15). The Son dwells in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7). The Holy Ghost is a Spirit who also inhabits eternity (Ephesians 4:4, John 7:39); but He has experiential knowledge of what it means to be human (Luke 23:46) and is therefore the perfect intercessor (Romans 8:27). He also indwells us as the saints and is the Father (Ephesians 4:4; John 4:23-24, John 7:39).

There is one Spirit that indwells us, correct? (Ephesians 4:4). We are indwelt by the Father (Ephesians 4:6). So, the Holy Ghost doesn't indwell us? Think again (2 Timothy 1:14). Christ most definitely indwells us (Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12).

These three are ONE (1 John 5:7).