Is Any Denomination Saved?

[Truther]

I can say it is the other way around. So who is right? By how much emphasis Paul or even Peter placed on it for salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Do you read any emphasis on water baptism when believing the preaching of the cross is the power of God in salvation? No, but a definite deference from it. Now look at Peter... carefully with His help.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water is used for the putting away of the filth of the flesh so that means not by water baptism BUT by the answer of a good conscience TOWARD God which is by believing in Him per the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now address those two references as they clearly support how I apply those 2 verses in Acts as rightly dividing the word of truth by Him.

1 Peter 3:21 is saying water baptism clears the conscience.

How?

Remitting sins.

This makes us "not guilty" or "sin free" before God.

Not an outward cleansing, but inward cleansing.

 

[Truther]

The cause for the result for not believing in Him is the same cause for the result for believing in Him.

If not believing in Him is how they are damned, then believing in Him is how they are saved.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Hence Spirit baptism over water baptism because those who believe in Him are automatically baptized with the Holy Ghost before water baptism.




47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Can be applied to repentance from unbelief by believing in Him is why it is associated with remission of sins.




Of that reference is undeniably water baptism, but it would be hard for you to prove that it is for salvation rather than for discipleship after salvation.

It would be impossible for you to prove that Mark 16:16 etc., are not in order to obtain salvation.

 

[Renniks]

No, I believe they get the Holy Ghost to lead them to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins, to save them.

Then, they need it to keep them in Christ after being buried with Christ in water baptism(his body).

But you have already claimed baptism equals salvation. So, you are saying they received the Spirit before salvation obviously.
The Spirit convicts people of sin. This doesn't always lead to salvation. The indwelling of the Spirit happens after salvation. Baptism is the same as confessing with your mouth, a public declaration of your new life.

 

[Philip James]

If you claimed something was literally your blood, I would expect it to be literally blood. Not hard to understand.

Indeed, which is why when Jesus says 'This is my blood', I believe Him.

Whether Christ mystically inhabits the elements isn't really an issue for me. It doesn't matter. He is there in Spirit, regardless.

And yet this is the very point being contested. Is Jesus corporally present in the Eucharist. For 2000 years the apostolic communities have said yes.
The idea that it is not truly, really, literally Jesus' mystical Body and Blood is a recent invention and not taught by any apostolic community..

Peace be with you!

 

[Philip James]

Why would He willingly submit then to that which is corruptible to be consumed?

Hello Enow,

That's a good question. While I will not presume to know the whole mind of God or all the reasons for why He does what He does, I think I can offer at least a few reasons:
For our good, for our unity and for His Glory.

For our good:

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For our unity:

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?


Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

For His Glory:

For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

Peace be with you!

 

[Philip James]

A quickening spirit can take on a body.

This quickening spirit body is omnipresent.

God is encapsulated in his omnipresent spirit body.

Hello Truther,

Jesus does not 'take on' a body. He has a body. A body that was born of the virgin Mary, that suffered and died for us and rose again from the dead.

Peace be with you!

 

[FollowHim]

Are the sheep that follow the stranger's voice saved? They may not be of the fold that follow His voice, but Jesus did say that other sheep He :must" bring because they are the ones that were saved but went astray, following a stranger's voice.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

One could say the Catholic Church scattered the sheep with its errors. And when they have a recent Pope that says do not convert any one, how does that not come across as the hireling that cares not for the sheep?

Now for the fold that followed the stranger's voice as being of that other fold; that other sheep that Jesus must bring.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So Jesus is the Good Shepherd after all as He will not lose one, but even though they are not of the fold that follow His voice & get left behind, they will when they are resurrected after the great tribulation as they will literally hear His voice as the King of kings.

There is a simple reality to knowing Jesus.
It is about our hearts being touched by His heart.

And these are those of His fellowship and His Kingdom.
Now when you say all believers are filled with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit speaks from the Father and teaches us of Christ and His ways, there are no sheep outside of this flock that merit any consideration.

God bless you

 

[Renniks]

Indeed, which is why when Jesus says 'This is my blood', I believe Him.



And yet this is the very point being contested. Is Jesus corporally present in the Eucharist. For 2000 years the apostolic communities have said yes.
The idea that it is not truly, really, literally Jesus' mystical Body and Blood is a recent invention and not taught by any apostolic community..

Peace be with you!

You must have a different view of literally then I do. If you test the wine and bread scientifically, I guarantee it's still wine and bread. But they represent Christ's blood and flesh, just as each passover element represented something else. Remember, Jesus implemented the remerence of him at the passover meal, changing the meaning of certain elements.

 

[amadeus]

I believe the promise of Jesus is about our salvation for why we would never hunger nor thirst again because we are Spirit-filled.

If we were still trying to save ourselves, but we are not. Once you come to & believe in Jesus Christ, you are a new creature and thus always Spirit-filled and thus saved as a testimony from God that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour.

To continuously eat [partake of the Word] and drink [partaking of the Holy Spirit] is not done to save ourselves. It is done so that we grow becoming always more mature and more like Him. It is so that we may work better in the day as we move in our vision of Him from through a "glass darkly" to "face to face". Without a vision His people perish [Prov 29:18]

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

As He works, so must we work and in order to work better, we need to see better.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

But I understand that the only reason you posted the way that you did is because you have been experiencing what you believe is the supernaturally receiving or the continual infilling of the Holy Spirit since your salvation.

I am afraid you understand very little about me as you generalize by throwing me into the mix along with what you have decided is the AT. What you need to do my friend is learn to start at the lowest room and leave the rest to God.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 is Paul reminding the believers of our tradition which reproves the lie for which God will permit the strong delusion to occur by that many will fall away from the faith because of it.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

That is Paul testifying of the tradition of the only time a believer will receive the Holy Spirit and that is at their salvation so they can know the lie and thus discern the spirits that are not of Him that will cause many to fall away from the faith by.

Delusion comes to believers because they lose their love of truth. This means that they had that love. It is similar to man who loves his wife when they first marry, but he lets his wandering eyes cause him to forget his first love. That is the flesh. Spiritually we are to love Jesus, but sometimes people get so wrapped in their personal beliefs and doctrines that they lose sight of the goal: They lose their first love.

The Holy Spirit is not the end of our course, but the beginning. This where the Life comes from and the possibility of growth. Without growth toward God, we like the waters of Jordan so filled with Life until we end up in the Dead Sea where there is no Life.

Also, what you are describing goes against the warning from Paul about seeking even another Jesus.

My friend we are to love Jesus without fully seeing or understanding Him. We see through a glass darkly, but we must love the Truth, which He is anyway.

Perhaps you thought you knew your wife when you met her and went ahead and married her. But... then after a few years together, if you were attentive and understanding, you came to know here better to love her more her. Not everyone does that.

Until you have a "face to face" vision yourself, you should not jump to conclusions about the vision of others because it doesn't not at the moment line up precisely with yours.

We may both be on the same highway of holiness, but we not certainly not on the same place on the road and we are not to be the same part of the Body of Christ.

 

[amadeus]

@Enow

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

I could cite another scripture here for you, but I won't. Rather, I will warn you to be careful for yourself when you stand in judgment against anyone else. What made you decide that that was your job? Simply because I did not agree with you?


"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

That is why we are not to believe every spirit but test them, because feel good experiences can be a sign from "seducing spirits" as the "holy laughter" movement is an example to that effect, brother.

Do you judge everyone by what they have or do because you do not have or do those same things? Is there anything of God that you do not understand? Do you always use the conclusions of other men to decide whether something is of God or not? Did they come to their conclusions as God directed them or did they presume that their linguistic expertise was absolutely unassailable?


"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes" Psalm 119:5

Who do you suppose should be directing us in the way we walk with God and in deciding what we should believe in the way of doctrine and truth? The person who got the best grades at a seminary or the person with no formal schooling who is anointed by the Spirit of God?

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Why did you quote that verse? Has the Holy Spirit spoken to you expressly condemning me or was it simply again that I did not agree with something that you believe and you felt an accusation without knowledge might be helpful? Or was there some other reason?

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Did I somewhere say that I did not believe that Jesus is come in the flesh? I did not!

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Does something I have said appear evil to you? If yes, please tell precisely so that as necessary I may deal with it.

Thanks for sharing, brother. Just voicing my concern for you by the scriptures.

Your concern sounded very much like judgment. Judgment belongs to God because He does know the heart of each person better than each person knows his own heart. That is why it is written:


"Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again" Matt 7:1-2


Are you already an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer? Until we, by the power of the Holy Spirit in us, have overcome all our own world of temptations, how trustworthy are we to judge anyone else?

 

[Enow]

Hopefully repenters believe, huh?

Luke, who written the Book of Acts as led by the Holy Spirit, said they did for why they had received the gift of the Holy Spirit at their salvation.

 

[marks]

Until you have a "face to face" vision yourself, you should not jump to conclusions about the vision of others because it doesn't not at the moment line up precisely with yours.

Hi amadeus,

Are you saying that the only way we're fit to discern what we hear from others of their experiences is if we have our own experiences, and then compare theirs to ours?

I think this is why we need to hold to the Bible as the truth, and compare ourselves to that.

Much love!

 

[Enow]

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues,...

That was a significant moment and why they were given proof because every Jewish convert to Christianity, even His disciples, were under the order not to preach the gospel to the Gentiles but to the lost sheep of Israel. That was why God had to give Peter a vision to compel him to go to the house of Cornelius.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

But due note it was still to serve as a sign to others and not to the new believers being saved at that moment themselves.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

As it is, Paul testified that tongues were to serve as a sign TO others and thus believers should not be seeking to receive the Holy Spirit by a sign or proof for anything for themselves when we are all seek to receive the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ.

Otherwise Paul would be saying we are all children of God by a sign of tongues, and that is hardly faith, the evidence of things not seen, but the fact that you believe, is a work of God Himself.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Enow]

1 Peter 3:21 is saying water baptism clears the conscience.

How?

Remitting sins.

This makes us "not guilty" or "sin free" before God.

Not an outward cleansing, but inward cleansing.

Since Peter bothered to defer from water baptism as not the water that puts off the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God which is believing in Him, that would explain the baptism of the Holy Ghost as what saved us. Being born again of the Spirit is when a believer is saved.

If you note Acts 8th chapter, the potential believers were water baptized in His name but they had not received the Holy Spirit yet. Why? Because of the infamy of Simon the sorcerer that had afflicted the people in that area with unclean spirits, and Phillip was going around seemingly undoing that dark work, the fanfare developed as they were following him around to see the miracles. Even Simon was too, believed the "things" Philip had preached about concerning the kingdom and the name of Jesus, but they were not right in the sight of God in coming to Him to be saved. Proof of that was even after Peter & John were sent down to lay hands on them for them to receive the Holy Ghost, Simon had thought he could purchase that power from them. So that is why God did not give them the Holy Ghost yet because the spotlight was on Philip and they just got water baptized out of fanfare. When we read on, we see Philip learning from his oversight in why the Samaritans were getting water baptism for, by how he had asked the Ethiopian eunuch directly if he believed in Jesus Christ before he water baptized him.

Anyway, you would be hard press to say water baptism signals the gift of the Holy Ghost when the Samaritans were not coming to believe in Jesus Christ, but following Philip around out of fanfare and doing whatever he had asked because they believed in the "things" about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ. They were baptized in His name but not saved yet because they had not received the gift of the Spirit.

 

[Enow]

It would be impossible for you to prove that Mark 16:16 etc., are not in order to obtain salvation.

You are right. I leave the convincing to Him, but I do see what is written for why they are not saved and that is by them not believing in Him, so... it is not a stretch to believe Jesus was referring to the promise of the baptism with the Holy Spirit for those that came to & believed in Jesus Christ.

 

[Enow]

Hello Enow,

That's a good question. While I will not presume to know the whole mind of God or all the reasons for why He does what He does, I think I can offer at least a few reasons:
For our good, for our unity and for His Glory.

For our good:

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

I still say that is about coming to & believing in Him in how to receive that bread of life. As it is, having eaten His flesh and drinks His blood, how many times does a Catholic has to do it to inherit eternal life if once was not good enough? When will the act ever obtain eternal life? See the problem here? Going on to infinity here.

For our unity:

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. ​

Communion in sharing in remembrance of what He has done for us that we are saved.

For His Glory:

For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

Peace be with you!

Hebrews 10 chapter reproves it for taking it for any other reasons than for remembrance of Him.

 

[Enow]

There is a simple reality to knowing Jesus.
It is about our hearts being touched by His heart.

And these are those of His fellowship and His Kingdom.
Now when you say all believers are filled with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit speaks from the Father and teaches us of Christ and His ways, there are no sheep outside of this flock that merit any consideration.

God bless you

Those who abide in His words are the disciples that hear His voice to follow Him to be of that fold; the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Those who are not rooted in His words but in something else to follow a stranger's voice, are not of the fold that follow His voice, but yet He still must bring them because they are His sheep and He will go back for that lost one sheep over the 99 in the barn, and then they will be of the one fold and one Shepherd.

 

[Mike Waters]

God is not a God of confusion.

I think I am right in saying that "God is not a God of confusion" only occurs once and is used in comparing opposites.
In this verse the comparison was with 'peace', the opposite of which is 'tumult' (as distinct from 'confusion').
And I would back up this alternative word by considering that a 'God of Confusion' is precisely what He was as per Genesis 11:1-8.
Just my rumination.

 

[marks]

I think I am right in saying that "God is not a God of confusion" only occurs once and is used in comparing opposites.
In this verse the comparison was with 'peace', the opposite of which is 'tumult' (as distinct from 'confusion').
And I would back up this alternative word by considering that a 'God of Confusion' is precisely what He was as per Genesis 11:1-8.
Just my rumination.

Hi Mike,

Interesting thoughts!

I think the idea is that God creates light and darkness, good and evil, order and confusion, to be so bold, as He created confusion at Babel.

But while He does all these, Who He is is not what He does, so in Him is no darkness, and confusion is not the nature He imparts to His children. My thoughts anyway.

Much love!

 

[Enow]

I think I am right in saying that "God is not a God of confusion" only occurs once and is used in comparing opposites.
In this verse the comparison was with 'peace', the opposite of which is 'tumult' (as distinct from 'confusion').
And I would back up this alternative word by considering that a 'God of Confusion' is precisely what He was as per Genesis 11:1-8.
Just my rumination.

That confusion of many languages divided the people up per the language they had come to understood each other by.