Is believing/faith a work ?

[brightfame52]

Robert Harbach wrote:

If faith is a condition unto my salvation which I must fulfill, if faith must originate with me, then my salvation is by works — and that excludes me — for all my works are filthy rags! Faith must be the gift of God so that I can believe! If I may believe through grace, then, praise God, my deliverance is His work from beginning to end! This is Calvinism. It is unpopular, but it is right. It is despised but glorious. It alone can say, Sola Dei Gloria!

Calvinism Unpopular But Right
This article first appeared in the December 1966 issue of the Standard Bearer, vol.43, Issue 5. The religious and doctrinal outlook of this now beyond middle age twentieth century is not that of Calvinism or that of the Reformed Faith. It is rather that of an inclusivistic or syncretistic and...
www.prca.org

 

[Daniel L.]

Faith must be the gift of God so that I can believe!

If faith is the gift of God, then everyone who doesn't believe can blame God, for not giving them the Gift of Faith. But because faith is a work of free will every one has to do for himself, then the blame is on them if they don't believe.

 

[brightfame52]

If faith is the gift of God, then everyone who doesn't believe can blame God, for not giving them the Gift of Faith. But because faith is a work of free will every one has to do for himself, then the blame is on them if they don't believe.

I believe your reasoning is faulty. God can never be blamed.

 

[Daniel L.]

God can never be blamed.

I agree, it is Calvinism reasoning, not mine. They think it is a "free gift" and not your work. If that were the case, anyone without faith could blame God for not "free gifting" them faith, and there is no work they could do to have faith. And because God cannot be blamed, this reasoning of Calvinists if proven impossible to be true.

My reasoning is that you are saved by your own work of believing and repenting, and if you don't believe it is your own fault you did not repent when you could have. So the blame is on the ungodly, not on God.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree, it is Calvinism reasoning, not mine. They think it is a "free gift" and not your work. If that were the case, anyone without faith could blame God for not "free gifting" them faith, and there is no work they could do to have faith. And because God cannot be blamed, this reasoning of Calvinists if proven impossible to be true.

My reasoning is that you are saved by your own work of believing and repenting, and if you don't believe it is your own fault you did not repent when you could have. So the blame is on the ungodly, not on God.

Its simple then, you believe in salvation by works. Thats unscriptural.

 

[Daniel L.]

unscriptural.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Read something other than Paul, friend. You have nothing against my argument, as soon as I said works you stopped thinking and discarded me as "unscriptural". Think about it, God can not be blamed, you know that.

 

[brightfame52]

If one is supposedly saved or justified after some action of theirs, like making a decision or what have you, that is salvation or justification by works and not grace. Whenever salvation is conditioned on a person doing is works !

 

[Daniel L.]

justification by works and not grace

It is still grace because He still forgave your sins, after you repent, that is mercy and grace. Even tho you are guilty He will show you His Grace and Mercy, if you repent, that is. Not just because you believe, because the devils also believe and they tremble, so we have to be better than the devils and actually repent and do good deeds, that is what seperates us from the devils who only believe and don't work.

 

[brightfame52]

It is still grace because He still forgave your sins, after you repent, that is mercy and grace. Even tho you are guilty He will show you His Grace and Mercy, if you repent, that is. Not just because you believe, because the devils also believe and they tremble, so we have to be better than the devils and actually repent and do good deeds, that is what seperates us from the devils who only believe and don't work.

Its a false hope to believe in salvation by works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is obedience something done by a person ?

And 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is the end of this debate.

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

So there are those who perish because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH…. That they MIGHT be saved. They MIGHT BE SAVED. MIGHT. MIGHT. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism.

Oh, and believing is not a work. Just read Romans 4:9-12 and then Read Romans 4:3. Paul contrasts believing with the polar opposite concept being a work (circumcision). Paul was saying that Abraham BELIEVED God and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:3). So your not reading the Bible plainly but you are reading the Bible with Calvinistic glasses on. Take off the glasses and just read the Bible plainly.

If we are to take your view, Paul would be saying that Abraham believed (did a work) and it was imputed to him as righteousness while he was not yet circumcised as a point of how Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness without works (circumcision).

Romans 4:5 says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness”

In your view, Romans 4:5 should say to him that works not, but works on him that justifies the ungodly, his work is counted for righteousness.

See how that sounds silly?
So no. A belief is not a work.

Or in your view, it should say in Romans 4:5, But to him that works not, but to the one who is forced by God to believe, God’s faith is counted for righteousness.

Does the Bible say that?

No.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So in John 6:29: How can Jesus say, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent”?

Well, it’s because Christ draws all men to Himself (John 12:32).
It’s because the Spirit can convict people in this world of their sin (John 16:8-9).
But that does not mean man cannot resist the love of the truth whereby they might be saved, though (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10 in the KJB).

Salvation is synergistic. It’s a two way street. God moves in our life at the right time for us to hear the good news, but it is up to us to either accept that message or reject it. The ball is in our court (even if the work of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit is moving upon our heart to believe).

The work in John 6:29 is not our own work. It is the work of God because without God convicting us of sin, and without God drawing us, we would not be able to believe. But this does not nullify our free will choice in choosing God or not, though. We still have a our free will to decide for ourselves. If this was not the case, then you would be believing in a god who gets upset at sin when He was the one who could have stopped it. So Calvinists are believing in a god who has anger problems. But that’s not the God of the Bible, though. God gets angry at sin because men choose to sin, and not because God chose them to remain as one of the Damned (against their free will).

Salvation starts off as a belief alone without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) (Romans 10:13), but then believers must enter the second aspect of the salvation process by faith in God’s Word in that they need to enter the Sanctification Process to live a holy life by the power of the Spirit of God (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14) (Romans 8:13) (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Salvation is neither “Works ALONE Salvationism” (without God’s grace being allowed to be given glory above man’s righteousness), and neither is salvation “Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism” (whereby it turn’s God’s grace into a license to sin). Works Alone Salvationists (like the Church of Christ) may say that obedience is always a work but it’s not; For obedience is related to believing the gospel (See: Romans 10:16 KJB). Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists (like Free Will Baptists or OSAS Christians) say that this is works salvation. But they really don’t understand what happened in Acts 15 in relation to what Paul said in Galatians 5:2. They don’t understand Romans 6:1-2, or Titus 1:16, or Romans 8:13. They conveniently either ignore these parts of Scripture or change them to defend their belief that they can sin and still be saved on some level all because they have a belief alone on Jesus as their Savior. But even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

Updated Side Note:

I did not know somebody just quoted James 2:19 until recently. Meaning, I quoted this verse without knowing about their post. Meaning, I only discovered post #308 after I had written the bulk of this post.

Anyways, blessings be unto you all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Daniel L.]

Its a false hope to believe in salvation by works.

Jesus doesn't give "false hope" to anyone:

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Romans 4:5 says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness”

Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

 

[brightfame52]

And 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is the end of this debate.

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

So there are those who perish because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH…. That they MIGHT be saved. They MIGHT BE SAVED. MIGHT. MIGHT. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism.

Oh, and believing is not a work. Just read Romans 4:9-12 and then Read Romans 4:3. Paul contrasts believing with the polar opposite concept being a work (circumcision). Paul was saying that Abraham BELIEVED God and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:3). So your not reading the Bible plainly but you are reading the Bible with Calvinistic glasses on. Take off the glasses and just read the Bible plainly.

If we are to take your view, Paul would be saying that Abraham believed (did a work) and it was imputed to him as righteousness while he was not yet circumcised as a point of how Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness without works (circumcision).

Romans 4:5 says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness”

In your view, Romans 4:5 should say to him that works not, but works on him that justifies the ungodly, his work is counted for righteousness.

See how that sounds silly?
So no. A belief is not a work.

Or in your view, it should say in Romans 4:5, But to him that works not, but to the one who is forced by God to believe, God’s faith is counted for righteousness.

Does the Bible say that?

No.

Is obedience something done by a person ? Yes or No please

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus doesn't give "false hope" to anyone:

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.


Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

Im giving you a warning friend, salvation by your works is a false message.

 

[Daniel L.]

Im giving you a warning friend

I can't believe you, the witness of God is greater, friend:

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

salvation by your works is a false message.

This is the witness of God, not "false message":

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

 

[brightfame52]

I can't believe you, the witness of God is greater, friend:

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.


This is the witness of God, not "false message":

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Salvation by your works is a damanble heresy.

 

[farouk]

Is obedience something done by a person ? Yes or No please

Philippians 2 says that for a believer 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'. Works are not supposed to be meritorious in order supposedly to gain favour with God. Romans speaks of 'the obedience of faith' and 'obedience to the faith'.

 

[brightfame52]

If we say that God wont save an individual unless that individual accepts Christ or accepts Gods Grace, thats nothing short of promoting salvation by works, or salvation conditioned on what a person does, their act. See salvation is solely by Grace, its given and its received by the ones its given to by Grace. Grace isnt an offer, it sovereignly makes one alive Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened[made alive] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

A person doesnt need to accept whether or not God will make them alive or not. The dead lazarus wasn't offered to be made alive by Christ, he had no decision to make, it was Christs will alone and His Fathers that they may be glorified Jn 11:4

When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

Hence those who say that Grace must be accepted in order for God to save you, are making the final condition for salvation contingent on what a person does, its nothing but good old mans religion motivated by the spiritually dead carnal mind. Its salvation by works !

 

[brightfame52]

Philippians 2 says that for a believer 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'. Works are not supposed to be meritorious in order supposedly to gain favour with God. Romans speaks of 'the obedience of faith' and 'obedience to the faith'.

If one conditions salvation on their works, their act of obedience or whatever, its work merit salvation.

 

[Daniel L.]

Salvation by your works is a damanble heresy.

You need to read something other than Paul. You can't form doctrine on one singular witness, unless that witness is Christ:

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

lazarus

John 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

-Lazarus was loved by Jesus, which means Lazarus kept His commandments. Had Lazarus not kept His commandments, and not loved Jesus, then Jesus wouldn't have loved him, and ths would have been a different story.

merit

When the wicked sins, is his death not merited unto him? Has he not earned his wages?