Is believing/faith a work ?

[Bible Highlighter]

I am correct, and I have backed up my point, I started this thread doing that. If you condition salvation to any degree on anything you did, you have forsaken grace salvation and promote salvation by works. Salvation is 110% the Work of God from eternity to eternity !

In the OP: All you made were assertions without any biblical support. Neither did you address any of the verses I put forth to you that refute your false belief. The Bible has to be read as a whole. You cannot isolate passages or verses to make a false belief work. I have no problem harmonizing the different sets of verses. You cannot give honor to the verses I put forth to you without twisting or changing them. Therein lies the difference between us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you condition salvation on anything done by man, it defaults to salvation by works.

Paul was referring to problem of circumcision for salvation (see Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24, Galatians 5:2, Romans 2:25-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Galatians 2:3. For if somebody thought they had to circumcised to first be initially saved, they would be making works the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation. Hence, why Paul spoke in the way he did in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:3-5.

Paul was not saying that works were not later required (after being saved by God’s grace) as a part of eternal life. Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13, 1 Timothy 5:8, Titus 1:16, 1 Timothy 6:3-4, John 15:4-6, and James 4:6 makes this fact abundantly clear.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you condition salvation on anything done by man, it defaults to salvation by works.

Also, if God gave people faith against their free will so as to be saved then 2 Thessalonians 2:10 would not make any sense.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

According to the plain normal reading of this verse above, those who perish are perishing because they received the love of the truth that they MIGHT BE SAVED. There is no MIGHT BE SAVED in Calvinism.

So the blame falls on them that they received not the love of the truth. It also says that they might be saved, too. So there is that possibility that they could be saved. So it’s not God forcing salvation on anyone. Please just read your New Testament alone and ignore the teachings that come from men.

 

[brightfame52]

In the OP: All you made were assertions without any biblical support. Neither did you address any of the verses I put forth to you that refute your false belief. The Bible has to be read as a whole. You cannot isolate passages or verses to make a false belief work. I have no problem harmonizing the different sets of verses. You cannot give honor to the verses I put forth to you without twisting or changing them. Therein lies the difference between us.

I

In the OP: All you made were assertions without any biblical support. Neither did you address any of the verses I put forth to you that refute your false belief. The Bible has to be read as a whole. You cannot isolate passages or verses to make a false belief work. I have no problem harmonizing the different sets of verses. You cannot give honor to the verses I put forth to you without twisting or changing them. Therein lies the difference between us.

If you want to accept it or not, if you condition salvation on anything you do, its works !

 

[brightfame52]

Paul was referring to problem of circumcision for salvation (see Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24, Galatians 5:2, Romans 2:25-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Galatians 2:3. For if somebody thought they had to circumcised to first be initially saved, they would be making works the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation. Hence, why Paul spoke in the way he did in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:3-5.

Again, if you condition salvation to anything you do, you deny grace salvation, period !

 

[brightfame52]

Also, if God gave people faith against their free will so as to be saved then 2 Thessalonians 2:10 would not make any sense.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

According to the plain normal reading of this verse above, those who perish are perishing because they received the love of the truth that they MIGHT BE SAVED. There is no MIGHT BE SAVED in Calvinism.

So the blame falls on them that they received not the love of the truth. It also says that they might be saved, too. So there is that possibility that they could be saved. So it’s not God forcing salvation on anyone. Please just read your New Testament alone and ignore the teachings that come from men.

If you condition salvation on anything you do, its works. Salvation from start to finish is 100% Gods work !

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you want to accept it or not, if you condition salvation on anything you do, its works !

Romans 3:27 says,
“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.”

This verse is saying boasting is excluded when it comes to the law of faith. Hebrews 11:7 says, BY FAITH… Noah prepared an ark to the saving of his household. So Noah did a work as a part of his faith and he cannot boast in that because he was simply following what God told him to do. Paul says there is this thing called the “work of faith.” (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11). James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Faith without works is dead (James 2.17).

Works in Ephesians 2:9 is man directed works because they would boast in such works.
Ephesians 2:10 is a different kind of work. It is the good work God does through the believer under his free will cooperation. They are the good works we are created to do in Christ Jesus.

Also, Paul was not saying that works were not later required (after being saved by God’s grace) as a part of eternal life. Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13, 1 Timothy 5:8, Titus 1:16, 1 Timothy 6:3-4, John 15:4-6, and James 4:6 makes this fact abundantly clear. Please read these verses and stop repeating your mindless mantra that comes from men.

Side Note:

Oh, and works in Romans 3:27 is in reference to the works of the Law of Moses (like circumcision). We are not under the 613 laws of Moses as a whole (even though certain laws have been repeated in the New Covenant). This is what you fail to grasp or understand (Which is looking at the whole counsel of God’s Word).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again, if you condition salvation to anything you do, you deny grace salvation, period !

Paul was referring to our Initial Salvation and he was referring to the problem of circumcision done for salvation in order to first be saved. So when you read Paul speak negatively of works this is what he is talking about. Just carefully read the chapters, and read them really slowly in Ephesians 2, Romans 4, and Titus 3.

Note:

The book of Ephesians and Titus do not speak of the problem of circumcision done for salvation. Both Galatians and Romans hint of the problem of circumcision done for salvation (of which see clearly in Acts 15). Romans 4, you have to skip back to Romans 3 to understand that it is talking about Initial Salvation. But you can clearly see Initial Salvation is the context when you read Ephesians 2 and Titus 3.

In Romans 3, it is impossible to make Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 to refer to the continued life or walk of the believer. How so? Well, if you believe you have fallen short of the glory of God as a continuing present tense reality for the rest of your life then you need to apply Romans 3:11 to your present daily life, as well. Romans 3:11 says they do not seek after God and they have no understanding. Does that describe you?

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 3:27 says,
“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.”

This verse is saying boasting is excluded when it comes to the law of faith. Hebrews 11:7 says, BY FAITH… Noah prepared an ark to the saving of his household. So Noah did a work as a part of his faith and he cannot boast in that because he was simply following what God told him to do. Paul says there is this thing called the “work of faith.” (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11). James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Faith without works is dead (James 2.17).

Works in Ephesians 2:9 is man directed works because they would boast in such works.
Ephesians 2:10 is a different kind of work. It is the good work God does through the believer under his free will cooperation. They are the good works we are created to do in Christ Jesus.

Also, Paul was not saying that works were not later required (after being saved by God’s grace) as a part of eternal life. Galatians 6:8-9, Romans 8:13, 1 Timothy 5:8, Titus 1:16, 1 Timothy 6:3-4, John 15:4-6, and James 4:6 makes this fact abundantly clear. Please read these verses and stop repeating your mindless mantra that comes from men.

Side Note:

Oh, and works in Romans 3:27 is in reference to the works of the Law of Moses (like circumcision). We are not under the 613 laws of Moses as a whole (even though certain laws have been repeated in the New Covenant). This is what you fail to grasp or understand (Which is looking at the whole counsel of God’s Word).

Again Paul doesnt teach conditional salvation. Now if you , me or anyone else conditions salvation or Justification before God by something done by them, it automatically becomes a works based salvation and opposes grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul was referring to our Initial Salvation and he was referring to the problem of circumcision done for salvation in order to first be saved. So when you read Paul speak negatively of works this is what he is talking about. Just carefully read the chapters, and read them really slowly in Ephesians 2, Romans 4, and Titus 3.

Note:

The book of Ephesians and Titus do not speak of the problem of circumcision done for salvation. Both Galatians and Romans hint of the problem of circumcision done for salvation (of which see clearly in Acts 15). Romans 4, you have to skip back to Romans 3 to understand that it is talking about Initial Salvation. But you can clearly see Initial Salvation is the context when you read Ephesians 2 and Titus 3.

In Romans 3, it is impossible to make Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 to refer to the continued life or walk of the believer. How so? Well, if you believe you have fallen short of the glory of God as a continuing present tense reality for the rest of your life then you need to apply Romans 3:11 to your present daily life, as well. Romans 3:11 says they do not seek after God and they have no understanding. Does that describe you?

If you condition any part of salvation on what you do, you espouse a work based salvation. All of eternal salvation is conditioned only on God, God the Father, the Son, the Spirit.

 

[Adam]

Do good in everything you can but claim no credit for it. That is what it means to be saved by faith and not by works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again Paul doesnt teach conditional salvation. Now if you , me or anyone else conditions salvation or Justification before God by something done by them, it automatically becomes a works based salvation and opposes grace.

Actually, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).

We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).

We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).

We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).

We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).

We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).

We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).

We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).

We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).

Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as OSAS folk say.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you condition any part of salvation on what you do, you espouse a work based salvation. All of eternal salvation is conditioned only on God, God the Father, the Son, the Spirit.

So what do you do with the conditional IF statements in the Bible?

John 14:23 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, if a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 15:14 KJV
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Can you get into God’s kingdom if you don’t love Jesus, you are not His friend, and you do not obey Him?

Romans 8:13-14 KJV
[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 11:21-22 KJV
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Colossians 1:21-23 KJV
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Hebrews 3:6 KJV
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14 KJV
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 1:7 KJV
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:9 KJV
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:3 KJV
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you condition any part of salvation on what you do, you espouse a work based salvation.

I don’t. The Bible does.
Again, grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10).
God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).
So you don’t understand grace according to how the Bible describes it.

Anyways, here are more things you need to do as a part of salvation (According to the Bible):

#13. Be humble to get grace. For God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. (See James 4:6). 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. So any time a person is proud, they are resisting God’s grace.

#14. Bring forth fruits worthy of repentance - for the ax is laid to the root of the tree (Matthew 3:10).

#15. Beware, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked (2 Peter 3:17).

#16. Bridle your tongue so as not to deceive your heart and so as not to have your religion be in vain (James 1:26).

#17. As a part of making your calling and election sure, do these things (see following note) and you will never stumble; and an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:10-11).

Note: These are the things we are to do:

1. Add to your Faith: Virtue.
2. Add to Virtue: Knowledge.
3. Add to Knowledge: Self Control.
4. Add to Self Control: Perseverance.
5. Add to Perseverance: Godliness.
6. Add to Godliness: Brotherly kindness.
7. Add to Brotherly kindness: Charity (Love).

#18. Confess Jesus before men, so that Jesus will confess you before the Father (Matthew 10:32). For if we deny Jesus before men, Jesus will deny us before the Father (Matthew 10:33).

#19. Confess that Jesus is the Son of God in order to abide in God (1 John 4:15).

#20. Confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh in order to not be of an antichrist spirit and a deceiver (1 John 4:2-3) (2 John 1:7).

#21. Continue in God’s goodness in order to not be cut off from the olive tree (Romans 11:22).

#22. Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Jesus because if you will lose your life for Christ’ sake, you will save it, but if you save your life (in going after only your own selfish desires and the world), you will lose your life (Matthew 16:24-26).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again Paul doesnt teach conditional salvation. Now if you , me or anyone else conditions salvation or Justification before God by something done by them, it automatically becomes a works based salvation and opposes grace.

Notice how you did not address my point about Romans 3:27.
Boasting is excluded when it comes to the Law of Faith.
This means that the boasting involving works in Ephesians 2:9 is not a part of the Law of Faith.
Please. Read your Bible!

 

[brightfame52]

Actually, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).

We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).

We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).

We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).

We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).

We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).

We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).

We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).

We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).

Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as OSAS folk say.

If you condition any part of salvation on man, a condition he does, then it becomes salvation by works.

 

[brightfame52]

So what do you do with the conditional IF statements in the Bible?

John 14:23 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, if a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 15:14 KJV
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Can you get into God’s kingdom if you don’t love Jesus, you are not His friend, and you do not obey Him?

Romans 8:13-14 KJV
[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 11:21-22 KJV
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Colossians 1:21-23 KJV
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Hebrews 3:6 KJV
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14 KJV
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

1 John 1:7 KJV
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:9 KJV
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:3 KJV
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

They are evidential ifs. Again if you condition any part of salvation on what you do, its works salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

I don’t. The Bible does.
Again, grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10).
God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).
So you don’t understand grace according to how the Bible describes it.

Anyways, here are more things you need to do as a part of salvation (According to the Bible):

#13. Be humble to get grace. For God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. (See James 4:6). 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. So any time a person is proud, they are resisting God’s grace.

#14. Bring forth fruits worthy of repentance - for the ax is laid to the root of the tree (Matthew 3:10).

#15. Beware, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked (2 Peter 3:17).

#16. Bridle your tongue so as not to deceive your heart and so as not to have your religion be in vain (James 1:26).

#17. As a part of making your calling and election sure, do these things (see following note) and you will never stumble; and an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:10-11).

Note: These are the things we are to do:

1. Add to your Faith: Virtue.
2. Add to Virtue: Knowledge.
3. Add to Knowledge: Self Control.
4. Add to Self Control: Perseverance.
5. Add to Perseverance: Godliness.
6. Add to Godliness: Brotherly kindness.
7. Add to Brotherly kindness: Charity (Love).

#18. Confess Jesus before men, so that Jesus will confess you before the Father (Matthew 10:32). For if we deny Jesus before men, Jesus will deny us before the Father (Matthew 10:33).

#19. Confess that Jesus is the Son of God in order to abide in God (1 John 4:15).

#20. Confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh in order to not be of an antichrist spirit and a deceiver (1 John 4:2-3) (2 John 1:7).

#21. Continue in God’s goodness in order to not be cut off from the olive tree (Romans 11:22).

#22. Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Jesus because if you will lose your life for Christ’ sake, you will save it, but if you save your life (in going after only your own selfish desires and the world), you will lose your life (Matthew 16:24-26).

The bible teaches that Salvation is by grace through faith apart from works. So again if you condition salvation on anything you do, you have departed from salvation by grace and promote the false gospel of works.

 

[brightfame52]

Notice how you did not address my point about Romans 3:27.
Boasting is excluded when it comes to the Law of Faith.
This means that the boasting involving works in Ephesians 2:9 is not a part of the Law of Faith.
Please. Read your Bible!

Notice how I just stick with the Truth, If you condition salvation on anything you do, it is salvation by works, a false gospel and denies Grace. Salvation by Grace means its 100% by Gods Power, Mercy and Grace !

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you condition any part of salvation on man, a condition he does, then it becomes salvation by works.

You are repeating a man made mantra and you are not dealing with what those verses are actually saying. Please go back and deal with what those verses plainly say (Which contradicts your man made belief).