Is believing/faith a work ?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Salvation isnt by works/conditions period. If you condition salvation on anything you do, it defaults to salvation by works and denies grace.

Your above statement is YOUR idea, it is not taught in the Bible at all. Again, many examples in the Bible of people being obedient to God's will in order to receive God's free gift yet nowhere is their obedience said to be a work of merit denying grace.... NOWHERE!!!!
Therefore your argument dies right here no matter how many times you keep posting the above statement of yours.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They are evidential ifs. Again if you condition any part of salvation on what you do, its works salvation.

They are not.

Look at 1 John 1:7.

John 1:7 KJV
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

John includes himself in this condition by saying “we.” He is saying IF…. We walk in the light. So walking in the light is not a guarantee. He is saying it for the benefit of his readers in that they have to walk in the light (continue love their brothers - 1 John 2:9-11) in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse them from all sin.

If John spoke as you did, the verse would say:

Those of us who are born again will always walk in the light and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. But John uses the IF word to say… IF we walk in the light…. Then such a condition as the blood cleansing us from sin happens.

1 John 1:9 is even more unmistakable.

It says IF we confess of our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive of us our sins. So John is telling us to confess so as to be forgiven. One thing needs to be done in order for the other thing to happen. You are not forgiven of sin until you confess it.

John does not say… and the true children of God will always confess of sin whereby they are already forgiven. That is what you would like the text to say but you have to read these conditional statements as being non-existent because you don’t like what they say plainly.

The Bible says for us to:

CONTINUE in the faith.
CONTINUE in God’s grace.
CONTINUE in his goodness.
KEEP YOURSELF in the love of God.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH… and lay hold on eternal life (Which is a command).

So your not believing the Bible as it is plainly written.
These statements of telling the reader (believer) to do these things would be a lie if what you say is true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Notice how I just stick with the Truth, If you condition salvation on anything you do, it is salvation by works, a false gospel and denies Grace. Salvation by Grace means its 100% by Gods Power, Mercy and Grace !

God’s Word is truth (John 17:17). So if your not explaining Scripture that refutes your false belief than you are holding on to something that is not true. You need to explain the verses I put forth to you one by one.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Again, a person must be of God before they can hear Spiritually. Jesus stated Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

As I showed earlier, you took that one verse, removed it out of its context isolating it from all other contexts and read your Calvinistic ldea into that verse. From the context of Jn 8, Jesus is not teaching Calvinmistic ideas but refuting those Jews argument that they were of God. If they were of God they would have heard His words but the fact they would not hear was proof they were not of God. Note the Jews in the context CCALIMED they were of God but gave no proof that they were while Jesus gave proof in verses 42 and 47, the fact they did not love Him nor hear was proof they were not of God and NOT proof one must first be of GOd before can love or hear CHrist. Once again Calvinism pts tings backwards from what the Bible teaches.

Again, you create contradcitions and do not bother yourself to deal with the verse that put belief BEFORE salvation or that say unbelief is a lost state not a saved state.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The bible teaches that Salvation is by grace through faith apart from works. So again if you condition salvation on anything you do, you have departed from salvation by grace and promote the false gospel of works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are in reference to our Initial Salvation and it is not in reference to the secondary aspect of salvation mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that says God has chosen you to salvation…. through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This is a call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Salvation isnt by works/conditions period. If you condition salvation on anything you do, it defaults to salvation by works and denies grace.

Here your statement is again with no proof from the Bible to back it up. For the umpteenth time I have asked, show an example from the BIble were a person's obedience to God's will is called a work of merit and that obedience denied grace? You can't show it for it's not in the Bible for the Bible does not teach faith onlyism.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Below is a post I made in another thread, but is relevant in this threada even more:

The "worketh not" of Romans 4:5 excludes the work of perfect law keeping as required by the OT law of Moses in order to be justified by that law. (Gal 3:10; Gal 5:3).

In Romans chapters 1 and 2 Paul proves both Gentile and Jew are under sin and those under sin are in need of justification. Paul begins Romans 3 telling us what cannot justfy the sinner that being the OT law of Moses, those oracles of God given to the Jew. Though having that law was an advantage to the Jew over the Gentile, that OT law could not justify the Jew for it required the Jew to do the work of flawless law keeping to the whole law. Since that OT law could not justify the Jew, then it left the Jew no better than the Gentile "we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin".

Yet in Rom 3:21 Paul says "But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;"

"but now" as the OT law was closed out and taken away by Christ there is NOW another way under Christ's NT law for man to be justified....a way to be justified "apart from" that OT law which required the work of flawless law keeping.

"apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested" --"apart from the law" another system exists, that being the NT gospel by which God makes men righteous by an obedient faith not by works of flawless law keeping required by the OT law.

"being witnessed by the law and the prophets" the OT Prophets prophesied of this new system of God that justifies men who have an obedient faith (Hab 2:4 cf Rom 1:17)

Paul concludes in Rom 3:28 "that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Paul is contrasting an obedient faith that now can justify both Jew and Gentile under the NT from the perfect, flawless deeds required by that OT law that could not justify neither Jew, (to whom that old law was given), nor Gentile.

NOTE: Paul is NOT contrasting faith from obedience to God's will but he is contrasting faith from the work of flawless law keeping required to be justified by that OT law.

So in the context of Romans chapters 1-4 the only work Paul speaks of that cannot justify the Jew or Gentile under sin was the flawless works required by the OT law while a faith obedience DOES justify under this new system per verse 21.

This means "worketh not" of Rom 4:5 excludes the work of flawless law keeping, it does not exlude a faithful obedience. Rom 4:5 is a mini summary of Romans 3 where the work of flawless law keeping does not justify as required by the OT law given the Jews from that new systen (v21) that does justify by an obedient faith.

Hence in Rom 4:5 Abraham was one who "worketh not" meaning he did not work the the OT law perfectly to be justified by that law (for he did not even live under that law (Rom 4:9-10) but he was justified by an obedient faith. Unlike Abraham, David DID live under that OT law of Moses but he was not justified by it for he did not work to keep it flawlessly...he sinned. Therefore neither Abraham nor David were justified by works in keeping the OT law perfectly but justified by an obedient faith.

Futhermore, remote contexts as Rom 6:16-18 Paul made obedience necessary in order for one to be justified. Also Heb 11:8,17 we see that Abraham DID DO obedient works and was justified by those works per James. Therefore "worketh not" cannot logically exclude those obedient works of Abraham.

Therefore "worketh not" does not exclude ALL works of all kinds, it does not exclude obedience because the CONTEXT of Romans chapters 1-4 it only excludes the work of perfect flawless law keeping as required by the OT law to be justified. For again, obedience does justify, (Rom 6:16-18).

Conclusion:
So it is a consistent mistake many make in trying to have the phrase "worketh not" exclude all works of all kinds in order to promote their theological bias (faith onlyism) when from the immediate and remote contexts of Rom 4:5 the only work Paul eliminates justifying one is the work of flawless law keeping as required by the OT law. Paul nor any NT writer never eliminated obedience from being saved but REQUIRED an obedient faith to be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Your above statement is YOUR idea, it is not taught in the Bible at all. Again, many examples in the Bible of people being obedient to God's will in order to receive God's free gift yet nowhere is their obedience said to be a work of merit denying grace.... NOWHERE!!!!
Therefore your argument dies right here no matter how many times you keep posting the above statement of yours.

If you condition salvation in any degree on what you do you promote salvation by your works!

 

[brightfame52]

They are not.

Look at 1 John 1:7.

John 1:7 KJV
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

John includes himself in this condition by saying “we.” He is saying IF…. We walk in the light. So walking in the light is not a guarantee. He is saying it for the benefit of his readers in that they have to walk in the light (continue love their brothers - 1 John 2:9-11) in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse them from all sin.

If John spoke as you did, the verse would say:

Those of us who are born again will always walk in the light and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. But John uses the IF word to say… IF we walk in the light…. Then such a condition as the blood cleansing us from sin happens.

1 John 1:9 is even more unmistakable.

It says IF we confess of our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive of us our sins. So John is telling us to confess so as to be forgiven. One thing needs to be done in order for the other thing to happen. You are not forgiven of sin until you confess it.

John does not say… and the true children of God will always confess of sin whereby they are already forgiven. That is what you would like the text to say but you have to read these conditional statements as being non-existent because you don’t like what they say plainly.

The Bible says for us to:

CONTINUE in the faith.
CONTINUE in God’s grace.
CONTINUE in his goodness.
KEEP YOURSELF in the love of God.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH… and lay hold on eternal life (Which is a command).

So your not believing the Bible as it is plainly written.
These statements of telling the reader (believer) to do these things would be a lie if what you say is true.

So again if you condition any part of salvation on what you do you have forsaken the way of salvation by Grace through faith!

 

[brightfame52]

As I showed earlier, you took that one verse, removed it out of its context isolating it from all other contexts and read your Calvinistic ldea into that verse. From the context of Jn 8, Jesus is not teaching Calvinmistic ideas but refuting those Jews argument that they were of God. If they were of God they would have heard His words but the fact they would not hear was proof they were not of God. Note the Jews in the context CCALIMED they were of God but gave no proof that they were while Jesus gave proof in verses 42 and 47, the fact they did not love Him nor hear was proof they were not of God and NOT proof one must first be of GOd before can love or hear CHrist. Once again Calvinism pts tings backwards from what the Bible teaches.

Again, you create contradcitions and do not bother yourself to deal with the verse that put belief BEFORE salvation or that say unbelief is a lost state not a saved state.

I took one verse and showed what Jesus said about who it is that hears the words of God. Jn 8:47

 

[brightfame52]

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are in reference to our Initial Salvation and it is not in reference to the secondary aspect of salvation mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that says God has chosen you to salvation…. through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This is a call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14).

Again if you condition any part of salvation on what you do you promote salvation by your works. God is 100% responsible for all salvation from beginning to Glory!

 

[brightfame52]

Here your statement is again with no proof from the Bible to back it up. For the umpteenth time I have asked, show an example from the BIble were a person's obedience to God's will is called a work of merit and that obedience denied grace? You can't show it for it's not in the Bible for the Bible does not teach faith onlyism.

I have used scripture truth to make my point regardless if it is proof to you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again if you condition any part of salvation on what you do you promote salvation by your works. God is 100% responsible for all salvation from beginning to Glory!

Acts 2:40 (NIV)
“With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I took one verse and showed what Jesus said about who it is that hears the words of God. Jn 8:47

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

How do you humble yourself before God according to Scripture?

• 2 Chronicles 7:14. If my people, who are called by my name, humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 KJV
[3] “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; [4] He is proud, knowing nothing, …”

Are you in agreement with the words of Jesus?

John 15:4-6 KJV
[4] “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

Paul says,
“But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

Note: You cannot be worse than an unbeliever if you are already an unbeliever. Think.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So again if you condition any part of salvation on what you do you have forsaken the way of salvation by Grace through faith!

Again, you’re not dealing with the plain words of Scripture. At least explain how these verses make any kind of sense in your belief.

 

[brightfame52]

Acts 2:40 (NIV)
“With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

It doesn't matter what scripture you run and get, if you condition salvation on anything you do, its works salvation condemned by the Blood of Christ !

 

[brightfame52]

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

How do you humble yourself before God according to Scripture?

• 2 Chronicles 7:14. If my people, who are called by my name, humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 KJV
[3] “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; [4] He is proud, knowing nothing, …”

Are you in agreement with the words of Jesus?

John 15:4-6 KJV
[4] “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

Paul says,
“But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

Note: You cannot be worse than an unbeliever if you are already an unbeliever. Think.

Again if you condition any part of salvation on what you do, its a works merit salvation and totally repudiates grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Again, you’re not dealing with the plain words of Scripture. At least explain how these verses make any kind of sense in your belief.

I have explained already why conditioning salvation on anything you do is works. I don't need to be explaining all the verses you run and get and Im not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It doesn't matter what scripture you run and get, if you condition salvation on anything you do, its works salvation condemned by the Blood of Christ !

So you reject Scripture at the expense of a man made belief?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have explained already why conditioning salvation on anything you do is works. I don't need to be explaining all the verses you run and get and Im not.

Yes, you do need to explain them because they contradict your belief.