Jesus is sympathetic to the feelings of our weaknesses. God takes pity on us, remembering we were made from dirt.
I think God is much more merciful than quite a number of people are.
Much love!
Is Drinking a sin?
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I think God is much more merciful than quite a number of people are.
Much love!
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
This is a problem. Define drunk. People will define that differently.
Most will understand the difference between getting drunk and a drunkard.
Not all will disseminate between the two.
The bread and wine ritual of course involves wine.
Christ changed water into wine at a wedding.
Christ ate and drank with people.
His explanation for not trying to bring Judaism into Christianity involved placing new wine in old wine skins.
His parables involved vineyards.
As time goes on Christianity uses the grape vine as various analogies of the resurrection, and wine is symbolic of the blood of Christ.
The era is an culture of drinking. There is no such thing as a grape press in this era...all wine presses...no way of preserving grape juice.
Do not let anyone judge you on what you eat or drink.
Travelers understood that the wells included bird dung and dead reptiles.
So the wells, each had a different flora. Mixing the water with wine was a way of dealing with this.
So it is good to define what we think drunk is.
We can all agree that no substance should over come our life...
But then again there are some that would believe a guy barbequing pork, smoking a cigarette, and having a beer is really sinning a lot and that is just not true. You have to be careful of manmade-sins.
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To my thinking, a man who gets drunk because he enjoys the boldness to do whatever he wants when he's intoxicated is different from a man who gets drunk because of his mental illness.
Both are sin. Both are wrong.
Some people get angry all the time because of mental illness. Some stay afraid. Generalized Anxiety Disorder is nothing to laugh about!
Some overeat.
Question . . . Do you all view overeating on the same level as excessive drinking of alcohol?
Much love!
This thread is getting deep. I just wanted to interject an observation here if I may.
Mental illness is not a sin.
Please continue with your regularly scheduled posting.
Mental illness is not a sin.
Please continue with your regularly scheduled posting.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Well you just made it deeper. LOL Of course mental illness is not a sin. Surely we are not that stupid.
You know we have all heard the old saying, Try walking a mile in someone else's moccasins.
I don't want to walk a mile in their moccasins. I cannot feel their pain. All I can do is be sympathetic and understanding as Christ would be...and I will fail at that...but I try.
Amen, my brother of another mother!
"The era is an culture of drinking. There is no such thing as a grape press in this era...all wine presses...no way of preserving grape juice."
True. No grape juice industry in ancient days. Period. It was only slightly mentioned by Romans as an obscure practise. The grape-juice industry did not begin until the 1800's, when a guy developed the means of preserving grape juice for 'holiness' Methodists to use in 'communion'.
"You have to be careful of manmade-sins."
Exactly. Jesus and Paul called them 'commandments of men', 'carnal ordinances' and 'traditions' made up by men to supplant the Law of God. The Pharisees had gotten so wrapped up in their own made up rules, that they had their Lawgiver crucified for exposing them as such.
"Define drunk"
Now that is the crux of the matter. We don't define being drunk for one another. We only acknoiwledge the rule of Crhrist that judges being drunk to be a sin. And like fornication, once is enough to sin.
However, there is a difference between being a drunkard, and someone who got drunk once. Even as a fornicator vs someone who fornicated once. Once was enough to sin, but the other is a life of ongoing sin.
"But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul." (Prov 8)
"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (I John 5)
The word 'sinneth' is a past, present, and future participle that means an active ongoing practice. If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father to forgive us, if we confess that sin (I John 1 & 2), but God will not be mocked and will judge us according to our ongoing persistent works of sin (Gal 6) (Rev 20).
We know, and God knows, when we've 'had to much' of anything, and the old sinful nature is creeping back in to spoil us of our heritage in Christ Jesus. We can confess from the heart, and we will be forgiven; however, if we tempt the Lord our God with habitual practice (Matthew 4), then like Samson we may not even know that the Lord has left us to our sin (Judges 16), and our 'confession' is no longer from the heart, but is merely lip service.
"For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." (Heb 12)
We truly can 'sin away' our day of grace: "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not." (Rev 2)
So, once is enough to sin, but making a lifetime habit of it without repentance may be enough for God to leave us in our sin...
(And no, don't ask me how often is a 'lifetime of' vs just 'once in while'. That would be tempting the Lord for sure)
Now that is the crux of the matter. We don't define being drunk for one another. We only acknoiwledge the rule of Crhrist that judges being drunk to be a sin. And like fornication, once is enough to sin.
However, there is a difference between being a drunkard, and someone who got drunk once. Even as a fornicator vs someone who fornicated once. Once was enough to sin, but the other is a life of ongoing sin.
"But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul." (Prov 8)
"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (I John 5)
The word 'sinneth' is a past, present, and future participle that means an active ongoing practice. If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father to forgive us, if we confess that sin (I John 1 & 2), but God will not be mocked and will judge us according to our ongoing persistent works of sin (Gal 6) (Rev 20).
We know, and God knows, when we've 'had to much' of anything, and the old sinful nature is creeping back in to spoil us of our heritage in Christ Jesus. We can confess from the heart, and we will be forgiven; however, if we tempt the Lord our God with habitual practice (Matthew 4), then like Samson we may not even know that the Lord has left us to our sin (Judges 16), and our 'confession' is no longer from the heart, but is merely lip service.
"For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." (Heb 12)
We truly can 'sin away' our day of grace: "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not." (Rev 2)
So, once is enough to sin, but making a lifetime habit of it without repentance may be enough for God to leave us in our sin...
(And no, don't ask me how often is a 'lifetime of' vs just 'once in while'. That would be tempting the Lord for sure)
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Well like I said, define drunk. People are going to define it different ways. The police have a way of defining it. LOL
My definition is that you drink enough that your decision making process changes.
"Do you all view overeating on the same level as excessive drinking of alcohol?"
Gluttony is the same sin as drunkenness is the same sin as fornication is the same sin as theft... It is lust of the world taking over in a good thing (food, drink, sex, or money) and thereby making it sinful.
And God is the One Who tells us what is sinful according to His rule of Law. Why? Because He is God, He is Love, and He is truly righteous.
"Generalized Anxiety Disorder is nothing to laugh about!"
Army Rangers for 9 years cut short by a mortar round. Followed by another 10 years of contractual stuff not to speak of.
I do not condemn those who can not handle civilian life afterwards. I do, however, know that God judges us according to our works, and that being born of Him by His Spirit with His love shed abroad in our hearts is the Life by which we need no excuses.
And those I know consumed by 'post trauma', know for themselves they do not seek excuse, only a way out. Some find that way out with helping friends, family, and groups. Mine was and is Jesus.
I have more than plenty to be drunk, angry, scared, disgusted, and outright murderous about, but only because of Jesus, I do it not.
That is Scripture, and that is for me. I care not one bit for those who would judge me for defending the faith of Jesus, and the righteous judgment of God, who is love and is the One that will allow them not written in the Lamb's book of Life to be cast into the lake of fire.
That said, Patton was wrong to have slapped the soldier that became shell-shocked. I love Patton, but Jesus would not have done that. (But then, Patton never claimed to be a Jesus lover either)
"Mental illness is not a sin."
I have found in my Christian life, which came later than most perhaps, is that many Christians make an error that most Christians don't even think of: That of being more 'loving' than God, Who is love.
I.e. They just can't seem to get past the fact that God is both all merciful and full of judgment, and He will not be mocked as a fool is mocked.
God's definition of sin and transgression of His Law of Christ, is that which comes from the heart. (Matthew 15)
Our 'mental state' has absolutely nothing to do with it. Not with God. Because God sees through the mindset, mental anxiety, depression, disorder, and whatever other psychological maladjusted manifestation man can define, and goes straight to the heart. (Heb 4)
It is not man that will judge us according to their hardness of heart nor bleeding heart, but God according to His Word, which He has made written for us plainly in the blood of His dear Son.
Mental illness is not a sin, nor is even considered by God worthy of addressing as sin. But drunkenness, fornication, idolatry, murder, rape, theft, etc... those are sins. Period. No debate. No dispute. And no getting around God to be judged for it.
How many innocent people must fall prey to repeat offenders with 'mental disorders', before someone finally says enough is enough and offs the scumbag that he is?
People do not do evil things nor even just get drunk, because of their 'mental state'. We do evil, because of lust and evil in the heart. The mind can be ill all it wants, but the heart is given to evil willingly (Jerem 6 & 8). And God would rather be rid of the evil that men do, than subject the good ones to an evil-doing that will never end. Even when the blood of the Lamb is there for the healing and curing.
That is the lesson of 1 Peter 3.
I have found in my Christian life, which came later than most perhaps, is that many Christians make an error that most Christians don't even think of: That of being more 'loving' than God, Who is love.
I.e. They just can't seem to get past the fact that God is both all merciful and full of judgment, and He will not be mocked as a fool is mocked.
God's definition of sin and transgression of His Law of Christ, is that which comes from the heart. (Matthew 15)
Our 'mental state' has absolutely nothing to do with it. Not with God. Because God sees through the mindset, mental anxiety, depression, disorder, and whatever other psychological maladjusted manifestation man can define, and goes straight to the heart. (Heb 4)
It is not man that will judge us according to their hardness of heart nor bleeding heart, but God according to His Word, which He has made written for us plainly in the blood of His dear Son.
Mental illness is not a sin, nor is even considered by God worthy of addressing as sin. But drunkenness, fornication, idolatry, murder, rape, theft, etc... those are sins. Period. No debate. No dispute. And no getting around God to be judged for it.
How many innocent people must fall prey to repeat offenders with 'mental disorders', before someone finally says enough is enough and offs the scumbag that he is?
People do not do evil things nor even just get drunk, because of their 'mental state'. We do evil, because of lust and evil in the heart. The mind can be ill all it wants, but the heart is given to evil willingly (Jerem 6 & 8). And God would rather be rid of the evil that men do, than subject the good ones to an evil-doing that will never end. Even when the blood of the Lamb is there for the healing and curing.
That is the lesson of 1 Peter 3.
Cristo Rei
Well-Known Member
Well according to the Gospel of John, Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine at a wedding when they had run out... So it can't be a sin...
But too much of a good thing can be a sin like gluttony or greed.
Debauchery is a sin and that is the excessive indulgence in sex, alcohol, or drugs
But too much of a good thing can be a sin like gluttony or greed.
Debauchery is a sin and that is the excessive indulgence in sex, alcohol, or drugs
And it is lust of the world creeping into the Christian soul once again, that begets sin again in the Christian life. (James 1)
How to stop the creep from creeping in?
Prayer, faith, and simple discipline...
Just a little bity correction: Jesus did not turn the water into wine, He made the water wine.
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1)
Wine, drugs, sex, money, buildings, etc... were all made by Jesus' lightening of man. It is lust of the devil that corrupts the partaking thereof.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
No sir, not at all. However, excessive drinking to drunkenness is, that is a difficult thing to determine however the point as to which it becomes a sin, even a serious sin. Some of us think that it means drinking to the point of slurred speech or staggering, but me personally I think it means to the point of where it is affecting your life.
Mental Illness. Yes. There is a lot more to the sin issue than many people may think about.This thread is getting deep. I just wanted to interject an observation here if I may.
Mental illness is not a sin.
Please continue with your regularly scheduled posting.
"Unwelcome and intrusive thoughts" are a symtom of certain mental illnesses. Depending on how severe the illness, that will affect the severity of said thoughts, just like regular life with the flesh. Personally, I think our sin issue can be very well compared to mental illness.
We've got a flesh that pushes itself into our minds, and messes us up. And if we're already messed up with a mental illness, to me, it's just like the flesh on steroids.
It's all overcome by faith, and faith DOES overcome all. Some battles are more easily fought than others.
Much love!
Those who claim that drinking is a sin must go to great lengths to try and prove it.
A hallmark of a false teaching, especially when it come to the Law of God, is that it is not just plainly written or not written that way.
The people who trouble the church most are they that add burdens and rules and laws to god's Word, and push them upon all other believers, especially them that sit in their pews, on pain of being transgressors of God.
The only place in Scripture where alcohol is specifically labeled in a bad light is Prov 20. This verse does not even label wine and strong drink as a transgression of God, but only warns of it's particularly damaging nature to health and life if abused. If we are deceived by it. If we allow lust to take over.
But of course, that goes for most anything in this world: sex, money, business, ministry...
However, we know drunkenness is a sin, because we are told plainly that no drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God. The Lord never ever said, Thou shalt not drink wine nor strong drink...
Another hallmark of a false teaching is manipulating Scripture in order to deny those verses that flatly oppose your false teaching.
That is where the whole foolish notion of 'introducing' into the argument that all 'wine' is not alcohol. And not only that, but whenever good speaks well of it, it is never alcohol but is grape juice. This of course is changing the meaning of words themselves. No one would every think of such a parsing of the word 'wine', except for someone who has a personal agenda to push on others in the name of Scriptural rule.
So now, the argument is no more simply what thus saith the Lord, but now we are invited to argue about whether 'wine' is really 'wine' or not, when used in Scripture. And their conclusion is simple: whenever wine is spoken of in a good way, it must be grape juice. And whenever wine is spoken of in a sinful way, it must be alcohol.
This whole circulating mess of confusion is of course not of God, and is plainly absurd to the objective viewer. But, that is the nature of the the beast: A minister and followers who are dead set on their own teaching as righteousness of God, care not one whit about true Scriptural proofs, but only about pushing their self-righteousness on all others.
A hallmark of a false teaching, especially when it come to the Law of God, is that it is not just plainly written or not written that way.
The people who trouble the church most are they that add burdens and rules and laws to god's Word, and push them upon all other believers, especially them that sit in their pews, on pain of being transgressors of God.
The only place in Scripture where alcohol is specifically labeled in a bad light is Prov 20. This verse does not even label wine and strong drink as a transgression of God, but only warns of it's particularly damaging nature to health and life if abused. If we are deceived by it. If we allow lust to take over.
But of course, that goes for most anything in this world: sex, money, business, ministry...
However, we know drunkenness is a sin, because we are told plainly that no drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God. The Lord never ever said, Thou shalt not drink wine nor strong drink...
Another hallmark of a false teaching is manipulating Scripture in order to deny those verses that flatly oppose your false teaching.
That is where the whole foolish notion of 'introducing' into the argument that all 'wine' is not alcohol. And not only that, but whenever good speaks well of it, it is never alcohol but is grape juice. This of course is changing the meaning of words themselves. No one would every think of such a parsing of the word 'wine', except for someone who has a personal agenda to push on others in the name of Scriptural rule.
So now, the argument is no more simply what thus saith the Lord, but now we are invited to argue about whether 'wine' is really 'wine' or not, when used in Scripture. And their conclusion is simple: whenever wine is spoken of in a good way, it must be grape juice. And whenever wine is spoken of in a sinful way, it must be alcohol.
This whole circulating mess of confusion is of course not of God, and is plainly absurd to the objective viewer. But, that is the nature of the the beast: A minister and followers who are dead set on their own teaching as righteousness of God, care not one whit about true Scriptural proofs, but only about pushing their self-righteousness on all others.
New wine is not grape juice. New wine is freshly fermented and at it's best taste.
Old wine is oxidized and turning sour.
Jesus made the water wine. Not grape juice. He did not turn the water into grape juice by providing pulp at the bottom of the jugs.
That is not what Scripture says, and such a 'trick' would never be referred to by God as Jesus' first great miracle.
The Bibles says plainly several times, that Jesus made the water wine. Simple. Any child would understand what that means, especially grown Israelites who were literally commanded by God at certain occasions to feast to their hearts content, including that of wine and strong drink (Deut 14). And don't forget to invite you're local minister and Levite.
The whole absurd notion would never come into an Israelites head, that wine is sin. The same would be for Christians, except for the 'false holiness' rampage of children that command a 'safety rule' for doctrine of God. 'Zero tolerance' policies are the first refuge of childish people who have no command of judgment and liberty in the Law.
There is the righteousness and true holiness of God (Eph 4), and then there is the self-righteousness and false holiness of man.
Old wine is oxidized and turning sour.
Jesus made the water wine. Not grape juice. He did not turn the water into grape juice by providing pulp at the bottom of the jugs.
That is not what Scripture says, and such a 'trick' would never be referred to by God as Jesus' first great miracle.
The Bibles says plainly several times, that Jesus made the water wine. Simple. Any child would understand what that means, especially grown Israelites who were literally commanded by God at certain occasions to feast to their hearts content, including that of wine and strong drink (Deut 14). And don't forget to invite you're local minister and Levite.
The whole absurd notion would never come into an Israelites head, that wine is sin. The same would be for Christians, except for the 'false holiness' rampage of children that command a 'safety rule' for doctrine of God. 'Zero tolerance' policies are the first refuge of childish people who have no command of judgment and liberty in the Law.
There is the righteousness and true holiness of God (Eph 4), and then there is the self-righteousness and false holiness of man.
Most of what you said I agree with...the only possible way to make wine is to let it ferment...otherwise it isn't wine.
KJV Dictionary Definition: wine
wine
WINE, n. Gr.
1. The fermented juice of grapes; as the wine of the Madeira grape; the wine of Burgundy or Oporto.
2. The juice of certain fruits, prepared with sugar, spirits, &c.; as currant wine; gooseberry wine.
3. Intoxication.
Noah awoke from his wine. Genesis 9.
4. Drinking.
They that tarry long at the wine. Proverbs 23.
Corn and wine, in Scripture, are put for all kinds of necessaries for subsistence. Psalm.
Bread and wine, in the Lords supper, are symbols of the body and blood of Christ.
An excellent teaching and explanation of why Jesus used the bread and wine symbolically as His body and blood.
Faith Forum: Why did bread and wine represent Jesus’ body and blood?
People who drink to get drunk example they always make bad decisions when under the influence.
April_Rose
Well-Known Member
It's like somebody already mentioned, if drinking was a sin then why did Jesus turn water into wine and then drink it Himself? Now if it goes too far and it harms somebody,... Now that is a problem.
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