Is Drinking a sin?

[robert derrick]

It is one thing to not like nor enjoy nor wish to drink any alcohol.

The problem begins when Christians begin to preach against things they don't personally like. They are no longer an example of the believer, but now set themselves up as The Example of the believer.

They raise their own personal standards to that of Law of Christ. They add to the Commandment of God their own rule of life. They become judges of other believers' consciences and Lawgivers.

And we know this is what someone is doing, by not reading their rule in Scripture. Only God can define sin and make law, not man. When man does so, as God, then they rise up above all others, as God (Rev 11). They transform themselves into the 'Head' of the body, supplanting Jesus as the true and only Head of His church.

The slipper slope is alcohol. Show me a person who declares alcohol to be a sin, and I'll show you a person who declares other things to be sin, that God never said.

One such great and all-powerful 'Leader' said: "Preachers are supposed to tell the people what sin is!!"

No. Preachers of God's righteousness are supposed to tell the people what God says sin is...

 

[April_Rose]

The problem begins when Christians begin to preach against things they don't personally like.

AMEN to that.

 

[robert derrick]

"For why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." (1 Cor 10)

There is no clearer statement by God on the matter. Everyone knows that the question of what we eat or drink in this context does not refer to salad and grapejuice.

1. The weak conscience of others would rob us of our liberty in the Law, the perfect law of Liberty (James 1)
2. The lawgivers of weakness rules condemn others who are innocent (James 4)
3. Zero-tolerance policy makers get the glory of God for themselves, when they are believed and obeyed as the Lawgiver: God

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5)

 

[GEN2REV]

I believe the Bible actually does make clear that a Christian should NOT drink alcohol.

Not just avoid drunkenness, but abstain entirely.

Proverbs 23:31-32 reads:

"Do not look upon the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it goes down smoothly;
At the last it bites like a serpent,
And stings like a viper."

We could go way into the original language definitions of the word wine, but we'll keep things as simple as possible for the moment. It is well known that the word wine in scripture means fermented grape juice (alcoholic wine) as well as un-fermented juice (non-alcoholic). Therefore, one must look carefully at context to decipher which is being referenced.

In the above verses, the fermentation process is being described.

'when it is red' - refers to the color of grape juice after, or during, the fermentation process. Test this for yourself. Squeeze a grape into a clear glass. The juice that it emits is clear. Red 'fermented' wines are made by soaking the skins of red/purple grapes in their juice during the fermentation process. Only then does the juice become a shade of Red.

'When it sparkles'- refers to the carbonation that is produced from the fermentation process. This gas does NOT exist without fermentation.

(Did you know that carbonation is the gas, and alcohol is the waste, that is excreted from the yeast organism that is feeding on the sugars during fermentation? That fact, alone, speaks volumes about whether Christians should be consuming alcohol of any kind; not to mention whether Jesus Christ, the most pure human to ever live, took part in the ingestion of such a substance.)

'goes down smooth'- refers to the smooth texture in the mouth after the fermentation process. If you have ever tasted a very dry wine, you will know what this refers to. The strong tangy nature that sets your salivary glands off in grape juice is no longer present because the juice is dead. It has been ingested and excreted by the yeast and all the natural sugars of the grape have been chemically transformed into alcohol.

The entire process of fermentation is a process of DEATH. The death of the once-living cells of the grape.

There are many other verses that make clear what God's opinion of alcohol is, but this one always pretty well summed it up for me.

Here are a few others to consider:

Referring to Occultic Rituals involving sex and the consumption of fermented wine
(Amos 2:8) "They lie down by every altar on clothes taken in pledge,
And drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god."

Referring to the consumption of yeast(leaven); which is haughty and lifted up, prideful.(i.e. eating only unleavened cakes/bread)
This reference actually implies that alcohol can make you incapable of even knowing the Lord.
(Deut. 29:6) "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God."

Referring to the pure things that God has provided for His beloved; those things which are good for the Christian.
(Deut. 32:13-14 KJV) These verses list honey, oil, butter, milk, the choicest lambs, rams, goats and wheat and concludes with "... and thous didst drink the pure blood of the grape." This refers to pure grape juice that is NOT fermented.

Those who take an honest look at the 'fruits' of alcohol consumption in our world will know in their heart that God very clearly does not approve of the consumption of such a destructive and soul-damaging substance.

God bless.

 

[April_Rose]

@GEN2REV, then explain why Jesus drank wine.

 

[GEN2REV]

@GEN2REV, then explain why Jesus drank wine.

We can discuss that, but first I'd like to discuss the points made in my post. Was there anything in my post specifically that you disagreed with?

Do you have any verses from scripture that contradict any of the points that I made?

 

[GEN2REV]

To fully understand the question of alcohol consumption in the Bible, you must understand the concept of leaven. Leaven, or yeast, is likened to sin in the Bible. When sin is embraced, it puffs up. It makes one prideful and haughty.

"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." (Proverbs 16:18)

Pride is possibly the most hated sin by God. It is the sin the devil fully embraced before being thrown out of heaven. God hates prideful people.

Leaven (yeast) is what causes the chemical reaction in bread to make it rise during baking. It is what causes grape juice to contain alcohol after the fermentation process and be considered wine in our modern day.

(It is widely debated whether fruit juice can become an intoxicating substance without any human intervention, but the undeniable FACT is that yeast is crucial to the process.)

There are many verses in scripture discussing the concept of UN-leavened bread (bread that has no yeast added to it). It was the custom of the Israelites to eat unleavened bread as a sign of their allegiance to God. It was a symbol of their denial of sin.

"A little leaven (sin) leavens the whole lump of dough." (Gal. 5:9)

Does it make any sense that they would have these special meals that specifically prohibited the use of yeast in their bread if they were all enjoying fermented (alcoholic) wine along with it? (i.e. grape juice that contained leaven/yeast)

People refer to the last supper with Jesus as a time when wine was assumed to have been consumed by Him. It is interesting to note that the Bible is very clear that it was UN-leavened bread they were eating at that meal. Can we conclude, in context with the entirety of scripture, that the wine was unleavened (without yeast - not alcoholic) as well?

Some things are a personal choice as to what we believe, but I believe those who take an honest look at God's Word as a whole, with a heart for Truth, will conclude that Jesus did not, and would not, have drank alcohol.

then explain why Jesus drank wine.

There is only one verse in scripture that even comes close to actually stating that Jesus "drank wine". That verse is Luke 7:33-34 where Jesus Himself is speaking about being accused of being a drunkard.

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, he hath a devil. The Son of Man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber (drunkard), a friend of publicans and sinners."

As you can see here, neither accusation was true. John was not demon-possessed. And Christ was not a drinker of alcohol. (Note: the verse does not say that Jesus drank wine.)

Even Christians who are Pro-alcohol know that Jesus was not a drunkard. (I sure hope)

"Wine is a mocker (makes a fool of you), strong drink is raging (arouses brawling): and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1)

 

[Nancy]

Is that what you really think, that a God who is love and full of grace will judge illness to be a sin?

Was just about to question that Pat...I will NEVER believe God would hold against someone who has these issues. My friend of many many years, is now in a nursing home with dementia and, she say's some horrible stuff sometimes but, she led her whole family to Christ before they passed, she is the only sibling left. They were all CC but one, her one older sister was a JW! So, if God is going to send her to hell because of her warped mind then, that is not the God I know.

 

[Pearl]

Was just about to question that Pat...I will NEVER believe God would hold against someone who has these issues. My friend of many many years, is now in a nursing home with dementia and, she say's some horrible stuff sometimes but, she led her whole family to Christ before they passed, she is the only sibling left. They were all CC but one, her one older sister was a JW! So, if God is going to send her to hell because of her warped mind then, that is not the God I know.

I can't believe how judgmental and without compassion some of the answers are on this thread.

 

[robert derrick]

To fully understand the question of alcohol consumption in the Bible, you must understand the concept of leaven. Leaven, or yeast, is likened to sin in the Bible. When sin is embraced, it puffs up. It makes one prideful and haughty.

"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." (Proverbs 16:18)

Pride is possibly the most hated sin by God. It is the sin the devil fully embraced before being thrown out of heaven. God hates prideful people.

Leaven (yeast) is what causes the chemical reaction in bread to make it rise during baking. It is what causes grape juice to contain alcohol after the fermentation process and be considered wine in our modern day.

(It is widely debated whether fruit juice can become an intoxicating substance without any human intervention, but the undeniable FACT is that yeast is crucial to the process.)

There are many verses in scripture discussing the concept of UN-leavened bread (bread that has no yeast added to it). It was the custom of the Israelites to eat unleavened bread as a sign of their allegiance to God. It was a symbol of their denial of sin.

"A little leaven (sin) leavens the whole lump of dough." (Gal. 5:9)

Does it make any sense that they would have these special meals that specifically prohibited the use of yeast in their bread if they were all enjoying fermented (alcoholic) wine along with it? (i.e. grape juice that contained leaven/yeast)

People refer to the last supper with Jesus as a time when wine was assumed to have been consumed by Him. It is interesting to note that the Bible is very clear that it was UN-leavened bread they were eating at that meal. Can we conclude, in context with the entirety of scripture, that the wine was unleavened (without yeast - not alcoholic) as well?

Some things are a personal choice as to what we believe, but I believe those who take an honest look at God's Word as a whole, with a heart for Truth, will conclude that Jesus did not, and would not, have drank alcohol.



There is only one verse in scripture that even comes close to actually stating that Jesus "drank wine". That verse is Luke 7:33-34 where Jesus Himself is speaking about being accused of being a drunkard.

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, he hath a devil. The Son of Man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber (drunkard), a friend of publicans and sinners."

As you can see here, neither accusation was true. John was not demon-possessed. And Christ was not a drinker of alcohol. (Note: the verse does not say that Jesus drank wine.)

Even Christians who are Pro-alcohol know that Jesus was not a drunkard. (I sure hope)

"Wine is a mocker (makes a fool of you), strong drink is raging (arouses brawling): and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1)

"(It is widely debated whether fruit juice can become an intoxicating substance without any human intervention, but the undeniable FACT is that yeast is crucial to the process.)"

The only thing man ever made on earth was by the light of intelligence of Christ. It is not human intervention, but rather God's using humans to do so. The devil never made anything on earth, not by man, nor by himself, except a lie.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men." (John 1)
The devil does not provide intelligence to make anything. The devil did not 'inspire' man to make wine, Jesus did:
Jesus made the water wine. (John 4)

It is recent fictitious and revisionist history making effort to try and make 'wine' in the Bible as meaning nonalcoholic grapejuice. If onje says otherwise, it is out of ignorance or purposed lying.

There are two types of ignorance, and the worst type must be taught, because otherwise no one would ever even think it...

 

[robert derrick]

To fully understand the question of alcohol consumption in the Bible, you must understand the concept of leaven. Leaven, or yeast, is likened to sin in the Bible. When sin is embraced, it puffs up. It makes one prideful and haughty.

"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." (Proverbs 16:18)

Pride is possibly the most hated sin by God. It is the sin the devil fully embraced before being thrown out of heaven. God hates prideful people.

Leaven (yeast) is what causes the chemical reaction in bread to make it rise during baking. It is what causes grape juice to contain alcohol after the fermentation process and be considered wine in our modern day.

(It is widely debated whether fruit juice can become an intoxicating substance without any human intervention, but the undeniable FACT is that yeast is crucial to the process.)

There are many verses in scripture discussing the concept of UN-leavened bread (bread that has no yeast added to it). It was the custom of the Israelites to eat unleavened bread as a sign of their allegiance to God. It was a symbol of their denial of sin.

"A little leaven (sin) leavens the whole lump of dough." (Gal. 5:9)

Does it make any sense that they would have these special meals that specifically prohibited the use of yeast in their bread if they were all enjoying fermented (alcoholic) wine along with it? (i.e. grape juice that contained leaven/yeast)

People refer to the last supper with Jesus as a time when wine was assumed to have been consumed by Him. It is interesting to note that the Bible is very clear that it was UN-leavened bread they were eating at that meal. Can we conclude, in context with the entirety of scripture, that the wine was unleavened (without yeast - not alcoholic) as well?

Some things are a personal choice as to what we believe, but I believe those who take an honest look at God's Word as a whole, with a heart for Truth, will conclude that Jesus did not, and would not, have drank alcohol.



There is only one verse in scripture that even comes close to actually stating that Jesus "drank wine". That verse is Luke 7:33-34 where Jesus Himself is speaking about being accused of being a drunkard.

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, he hath a devil. The Son of Man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber (drunkard), a friend of publicans and sinners."

As you can see here, neither accusation was true. John was not demon-possessed. And Christ was not a drinker of alcohol. (Note: the verse does not say that Jesus drank wine.)

Even Christians who are Pro-alcohol know that Jesus was not a drunkard. (I sure hope)

"Wine is a mocker (makes a fool of you), strong drink is raging (arouses brawling): and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1)

"Does it make any sense that they would have these special meals that specifically prohibited the use of yeast in their bread if they were all enjoying fermented (alcoholic) wine along with it? (i.e. grape juice that contained leaven/yeast)"

Yes, because the law was against unleavened bread, not unleavened wine.

If there were even such a common thing as 'unyeasted' wine, such as grapejuice, and THE leavened kind was sin, then God would have plainly said so, even as he made difference between leavened and unleavened bread.

He did not and will not.

 

[robert derrick]

To fully understand the question of alcohol consumption in the Bible, you must understand the concept of leaven. Leaven, or yeast, is likened to sin in the Bible. When sin is embraced, it puffs up. It makes one prideful and haughty.

"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." (Proverbs 16:18)

Pride is possibly the most hated sin by God. It is the sin the devil fully embraced before being thrown out of heaven. God hates prideful people.

Leaven (yeast) is what causes the chemical reaction in bread to make it rise during baking. It is what causes grape juice to contain alcohol after the fermentation process and be considered wine in our modern day.

(It is widely debated whether fruit juice can become an intoxicating substance without any human intervention, but the undeniable FACT is that yeast is crucial to the process.)

There are many verses in scripture discussing the concept of UN-leavened bread (bread that has no yeast added to it). It was the custom of the Israelites to eat unleavened bread as a sign of their allegiance to God. It was a symbol of their denial of sin.

"A little leaven (sin) leavens the whole lump of dough." (Gal. 5:9)

Does it make any sense that they would have these special meals that specifically prohibited the use of yeast in their bread if they were all enjoying fermented (alcoholic) wine along with it? (i.e. grape juice that contained leaven/yeast)

People refer to the last supper with Jesus as a time when wine was assumed to have been consumed by Him. It is interesting to note that the Bible is very clear that it was UN-leavened bread they were eating at that meal. Can we conclude, in context with the entirety of scripture, that the wine was unleavened (without yeast - not alcoholic) as well?

Some things are a personal choice as to what we believe, but I believe those who take an honest look at God's Word as a whole, with a heart for Truth, will conclude that Jesus did not, and would not, have drank alcohol.



There is only one verse in scripture that even comes close to actually stating that Jesus "drank wine". That verse is Luke 7:33-34 where Jesus Himself is speaking about being accused of being a drunkard.

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, he hath a devil. The Son of Man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber (drunkard), a friend of publicans and sinners."

As you can see here, neither accusation was true. John was not demon-possessed. And Christ was not a drinker of alcohol. (Note: the verse does not say that Jesus drank wine.)

Even Christians who are Pro-alcohol know that Jesus was not a drunkard. (I sure hope)

"Wine is a mocker (makes a fool of you), strong drink is raging (arouses brawling): and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1)

A hallmark of false teaching it to misquote Scripture purposely and to render the normal proper sense of Scripture meaningless.

1. "For John came neither eating nor drinking..." Now 'wine' there in Scripture. That is a lie.

2. Jesus did not specify drinking 'wine' even as He did not specify eating 'food'. Because it was unnecessary, because everyone knew what He was talking about. Only those with a personal agenda of false teaching would even try to parse it out differently.

3. The plain sense of this passage is that Jesus was falsely accused of gluttony and drunkenness, because He was eating and drinking with 'sinners'.

That meant, he had to have eaten some food and drank some wine. Otherwise no such accusation could have possibly been made, and they would have needed just accuse Him of having a devil, like John Baptist for not eating food and not drinking wine.

Why would a normally honest and Jesus loving Christian openly lie and misconstruct Scripture?

It is called 'self-righteousness'. The same kind of made up righteousness that the Jews had in Jesus' day, and He exposed them by quoting Scripture accurately and sensibly. For which they hated Him.

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." (Rom 10)

The righteousness of God is only known by Scripture, and those who would establish their own righteousness must twist and mishandle Scripture, or ignore it entirely to do so.

 

[robert derrick]

I believe the Bible actually does make clear that a Christian should NOT drink alcohol.

Not just avoid drunkenness, but abstain entirely.

Proverbs 23:31-32 reads:

"Do not look upon the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it goes down smoothly;
At the last it bites like a serpent,
And stings like a viper."

We could go way into the original language definitions of the word wine, but we'll keep things as simple as possible for the moment. It is well known that the word wine in scripture means fermented grape juice (alcoholic wine) as well as un-fermented juice (non-alcoholic). Therefore, one must look carefully at context to decipher which is being referenced.

In the above verses, the fermentation process is being described.

'when it is red' - refers to the color of grape juice after, or during, the fermentation process. Test this for yourself. Squeeze a grape into a clear glass. The juice that it emits is clear. Red 'fermented' wines are made by soaking the skins of red/purple grapes in their juice during the fermentation process. Only then does the juice become a shade of Red.

'When it sparkles'- refers to the carbonation that is produced from the fermentation process. This gas does NOT exist without fermentation.

(Did you know that carbonation is the gas, and alcohol is the waste, that is excreted from the yeast organism that is feeding on the sugars during fermentation? That fact, alone, speaks volumes about whether Christians should be consuming alcohol of any kind; not to mention whether Jesus Christ, the most pure human to ever live, took part in the ingestion of such a substance.)

'goes down smooth'- refers to the smooth texture in the mouth after the fermentation process. If you have ever tasted a very dry wine, you will know what this refers to. The strong tangy nature that sets your salivary glands off in grape juice is no longer present because the juice is dead. It has been ingested and excreted by the yeast and all the natural sugars of the grape have been chemically transformed into alcohol.

The entire process of fermentation is a process of DEATH. The death of the once-living cells of the grape.

There are many other verses that make clear what God's opinion of alcohol is, but this one always pretty well summed it up for me.

Here are a few others to consider:

Referring to Occultic Rituals involving sex and the consumption of fermented wine
(Amos 2:8) "They lie down by every altar on clothes taken in pledge,
And drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god."

Referring to the consumption of yeast(leaven); which is haughty and lifted up, prideful.(i.e. eating only unleavened cakes/bread)
This reference actually implies that alcohol can make you incapable of even knowing the Lord.
(Deut. 29:6) "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God."

Referring to the pure things that God has provided for His beloved; those things which are good for the Christian.
(Deut. 32:13-14 KJV) These verses list honey, oil, butter, milk, the choicest lambs, rams, goats and wheat and concludes with "... and thous didst drink the pure blood of the grape." This refers to pure grape juice that is NOT fermented.

Those who take an honest look at the 'fruits' of alcohol consumption in our world will know in their heart that God very clearly does not approve of the consumption of such a destructive and soul-damaging substance.

God bless.

"The entire process of fermentation is a process of DEATH. The death of the once-living cells of the grape."

Which is exactly why God chose to have His Son perform this miracle of making the water wine. Because:

"Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." (John 12)

The 'process' of His crucifixion was excruciating DEATH. And so, it would even be more comparable to wine and strong drink.

The death of the once-living son of man was necessary for our redemption. Therefore, the fermenting of wine in an instant, in a moment of the twinkling of the eye made by Jesus is necessary to show forth His glory by the cross.

Making grape juice don't even come close. For that, all He needed do was throw some pulp on the bottom of the empty jars.

"...when men have well drunk." (John 2) Was not talking grape juice. Period.

 

[robert derrick]

I believe the Bible actually does make clear that a Christian should NOT drink alcohol.

Not just avoid drunkenness, but abstain entirely.

Proverbs 23:31-32 reads:

"Do not look upon the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it goes down smoothly;
At the last it bites like a serpent,
And stings like a viper."

We could go way into the original language definitions of the word wine, but we'll keep things as simple as possible for the moment. It is well known that the word wine in scripture means fermented grape juice (alcoholic wine) as well as un-fermented juice (non-alcoholic). Therefore, one must look carefully at context to decipher which is being referenced.

In the above verses, the fermentation process is being described.

'when it is red' - refers to the color of grape juice after, or during, the fermentation process. Test this for yourself. Squeeze a grape into a clear glass. The juice that it emits is clear. Red 'fermented' wines are made by soaking the skins of red/purple grapes in their juice during the fermentation process. Only then does the juice become a shade of Red.

'When it sparkles'- refers to the carbonation that is produced from the fermentation process. This gas does NOT exist without fermentation.

(Did you know that carbonation is the gas, and alcohol is the waste, that is excreted from the yeast organism that is feeding on the sugars during fermentation? That fact, alone, speaks volumes about whether Christians should be consuming alcohol of any kind; not to mention whether Jesus Christ, the most pure human to ever live, took part in the ingestion of such a substance.)

'goes down smooth'- refers to the smooth texture in the mouth after the fermentation process. If you have ever tasted a very dry wine, you will know what this refers to. The strong tangy nature that sets your salivary glands off in grape juice is no longer present because the juice is dead. It has been ingested and excreted by the yeast and all the natural sugars of the grape have been chemically transformed into alcohol.

The entire process of fermentation is a process of DEATH. The death of the once-living cells of the grape.

There are many other verses that make clear what God's opinion of alcohol is, but this one always pretty well summed it up for me.

Here are a few others to consider:

Referring to Occultic Rituals involving sex and the consumption of fermented wine
(Amos 2:8) "They lie down by every altar on clothes taken in pledge,
And drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god."

Referring to the consumption of yeast(leaven); which is haughty and lifted up, prideful.(i.e. eating only unleavened cakes/bread)
This reference actually implies that alcohol can make you incapable of even knowing the Lord.
(Deut. 29:6) "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God."

Referring to the pure things that God has provided for His beloved; those things which are good for the Christian.
(Deut. 32:13-14 KJV) These verses list honey, oil, butter, milk, the choicest lambs, rams, goats and wheat and concludes with "... and thous didst drink the pure blood of the grape." This refers to pure grape juice that is NOT fermented.

Those who take an honest look at the 'fruits' of alcohol consumption in our world will know in their heart that God very clearly does not approve of the consumption of such a destructive and soul-damaging substance.

God bless.

"Those who take an honest look at the 'fruits' of alcohol consumption in our world will know in their heart that God very clearly does not approve of the consumption of such a destructive and soul-damaging substance."

Sounds like your typical 'greek master', who suggests we look very closely at the greek, in order to believe something about what is plainly written in English is not so plain afterall.

Even at a cursory glance, much less a closer look at Scripture cannot find a single Scripture that says plainly "thou shalt not drink wine".

This is the one main thing about God's Law: it is specifically codified. I.e. if God is to make something a sin for man, He will say so definitively, so that there be no shadows and controversy about it.

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." (James)

There would be no doubt about it. No need to come up with abnormal and nonsensical arguments to support it. No revisionism of ancient history. And especially not rewriting of Scripture.

Which is why any child knows drunkenness is a transgression of God's clearly written Law. (Rom 13)(Gal 5) If drinking at all were sin, God would have simply said so.

It is only when self-righteous lawmakers, passing themselves off as loving caretakers of other believers' souls, that division is brought into the church, and the necessity of defending Scripture against the most ridiculous of rules is made.

 

[GEN2REV]

"Does it make any sense that they would have these special meals that specifically prohibited the use of yeast in their bread if they were all enjoying fermented (alcoholic) wine along with it? (i.e. grape juice that contained leaven/yeast)"

Yes, because the law was against unleavened bread, not unleavened wine.

The law was against the 'leaven', the 'yeast,' IN the bread. As I have made plainly clear.

Leaven is likened to sin in the Bible.

Leaven/Yeast is an absolute requirement for grape juice to become alcohol.

If somebody wishes for the Bible to support their decision to drink alcohol, they will find scripture to support that decision, BUT ... don't think that there is not also plenty of scripture to support the decision of those who have chosen otherwise, often after a long drawn-out battle with the substance.

And it is not only their right, but their honorable duty, to inform others of their battle and the path to freedom from it. Sometimes all it takes is just one of these verses to turn the tide for those who are suffering because they have so often been told that the Bible completely allows and encourages the drinking of alcoholic.

If there were even such a common thing as 'unyeasted' wine, such as grapejuice, and THE leavened kind was sin, then God would have plainly said so, even as he made difference between leavened and unleavened bread.

He did not and will not.

Are you sure about that?

All of scripture is God's Words.

These verses FROM GOD'S WORDS make CRYSTAL CLEAR that is not the case:

"You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God."
(Deut. 29:6)
"Do not have anything to do with those who drink alcohol."
(Prov. 23:20)
Those who worship demons... "... drink the wine of 'the condemned(those who are dying)' in the house of their god."
(Amos 2:8)
"...It is not for kings to drink wine, Nor for princes intoxicating drink; Lest they drink and forget the Law, and pervert the justice of the afflicted. Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to those who are bitter of heart. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more."
(Proverbs 31:4-7)
"Who has woe,...sorrow,...contentions,...complaints,...wounds without cause,...redness of eyes? Those who linger...at the wine, Those who go in search of mixed wine. ... At the last it bites like a serpent(poison), And stings like a viper(poison). Your eyes will see strange things, And your heart will utter perverse things..."
(Proverbs 23:29-33)
"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, that puts the bottle to them...to make them drunk,...that you may look on their nakedness! You are filled with shame instead of glory. You also - drink! And be exposed... The cup of the Lord's right hand will be turned against you, And utter shame will be on your glory."
(Habakkuk 2:15)[/QUOTE]

 

[robert derrick]

I believe the Bible actually does make clear that a Christian should NOT drink alcohol.

Not just avoid drunkenness, but abstain entirely.

Proverbs 23:31-32 reads:

"Do not look upon the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it goes down smoothly;
At the last it bites like a serpent,
And stings like a viper."

We could go way into the original language definitions of the word wine, but we'll keep things as simple as possible for the moment. It is well known that the word wine in scripture means fermented grape juice (alcoholic wine) as well as un-fermented juice (non-alcoholic). Therefore, one must look carefully at context to decipher which is being referenced.

In the above verses, the fermentation process is being described.

'when it is red' - refers to the color of grape juice after, or during, the fermentation process. Test this for yourself. Squeeze a grape into a clear glass. The juice that it emits is clear. Red 'fermented' wines are made by soaking the skins of red/purple grapes in their juice during the fermentation process. Only then does the juice become a shade of Red.

'When it sparkles'- refers to the carbonation that is produced from the fermentation process. This gas does NOT exist without fermentation.

(Did you know that carbonation is the gas, and alcohol is the waste, that is excreted from the yeast organism that is feeding on the sugars during fermentation? That fact, alone, speaks volumes about whether Christians should be consuming alcohol of any kind; not to mention whether Jesus Christ, the most pure human to ever live, took part in the ingestion of such a substance.)

'goes down smooth'- refers to the smooth texture in the mouth after the fermentation process. If you have ever tasted a very dry wine, you will know what this refers to. The strong tangy nature that sets your salivary glands off in grape juice is no longer present because the juice is dead. It has been ingested and excreted by the yeast and all the natural sugars of the grape have been chemically transformed into alcohol.

The entire process of fermentation is a process of DEATH. The death of the once-living cells of the grape.

There are many other verses that make clear what God's opinion of alcohol is, but this one always pretty well summed it up for me.

Here are a few others to consider:

Referring to Occultic Rituals involving sex and the consumption of fermented wine
(Amos 2:8) "They lie down by every altar on clothes taken in pledge,
And drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god."

Referring to the consumption of yeast(leaven); which is haughty and lifted up, prideful.(i.e. eating only unleavened cakes/bread)
This reference actually implies that alcohol can make you incapable of even knowing the Lord.
(Deut. 29:6) "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God."

Referring to the pure things that God has provided for His beloved; those things which are good for the Christian.
(Deut. 32:13-14 KJV) These verses list honey, oil, butter, milk, the choicest lambs, rams, goats and wheat and concludes with "... and thous didst drink the pure blood of the grape." This refers to pure grape juice that is NOT fermented.

Those who take an honest look at the 'fruits' of alcohol consumption in our world will know in their heart that God very clearly does not approve of the consumption of such a destructive and soul-damaging substance.

God bless.

Amos was condemning those who lived riotously and hedonistically like the Gentiles around them. He was not talking about your average Israelite, and Christian today drinking wine with dinner surrounded by loving family. (Give me a break, please)

Deut 29 refers to their time in the wilderness, behaving themselves like John Baptist, because there was none of the normal food and drink there. It was a period of imposed fasting, where there was only water and manna from heaven. If God was saying wine prevents us from knowing the Lord, then so does bread.

"...pure blood of the grape." This refers to pure grape juice that is NOT fermented."

Another fabrication of pseudo-historians of culture and science in order to get away from it's plain meaning. The 'blood of the grape' was in history and some places today referring to how the grapes 'give their all' to make wine for mankind. I.e. they give their very blood.

"...which is haughty and lifted up, prideful"

What is 'haughty and prideful' is self-righteousness preached for Scripture. No more widespread damage and pernicious division has been done among God's people, including drunkenness, fornication, robbery, etc... than by false teachers creeping in with made up rules and commandments of men (Col 15)(Titus 1). It is the very reason they had Jesus and Paul stoned: because they were being exposed for their self-righteousness. They were so obsessed with the great and glorious carnal ordinances for life, that they even accused Jesus of violating the Sabbath for healing a man, and for rubbing ears of corn to eat while travelling...

"Did you know that carbonation is the gas, and alcohol is the waste..."
The waste is when you don't drink it.

Which also points to the falsehood that 'new wine' is unfermented, and only 'old wine' is alcoholic. New wine is freshly fermented and kept so in sealed bottles and wineskins. Wineskins were not for grapejuice, because no one tried to keep it around for later drinking.

Old wine is that which has been exposed to the air too long, so that it becomes sour.

 

[GEN2REV]

A hallmark of false teaching it to misquote Scripture purposely and to render the normal proper sense of Scripture meaningless.

1. "For John came neither eating nor drinking..." Now 'wine' there in Scripture. That is a lie.

You are a silly, silly individual, sir. The verse I quoted is identical in the KJV and NKJV besides the difference in the word devil and demon. Look for yourself.

Why would a normally honest and Jesus loving Christian openly lie and misconstruct Scripture?

I'd like to ask YOU that question, but it's always clear when somebody is attacking a messenger, as opposed to their message, it is because they have no other play. They are beaten. Shame on you, Robert.

It is called 'self-righteousness'. The same kind of made up righteousness that the Jews had in Jesus' day, and He exposed them by quoting Scripture accurately and sensibly. For which they hated Him.

You're exactly right and who's doing the hating and complaining? That's right, YOU.

The righteousness of God is only known by Scripture, and those who would establish their own righteousness must twist and mishandle Scripture, or ignore it entirely to do so.

Again, you're spot on!

God Bless. I'll pray for you.

 

[robert derrick]

"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Rom 4)

When people make up Law that is not written (Thou shalt not drink wine), then they make transgressors of Christians , where no transgression is.

They condemn the innocent (Matthew 12) and promote the wrath of man's preaching against them. No matter how lovingly and caringly delivered. After all, Satan, the accuser of the brethren transforms himself to an angel of light.

"For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God." (James 1)

The law of man only works to stir up division and wrath in the church, and has absolutely nothing to do with the righteousness of God, that comes by faith in the Scriptures only.

 

[GEN2REV]

"Did you know that carbonation is the gas, and alcohol is the waste..."
The waste is when you don't drink it.

Now there's that good, honorable Christian we all know and love.

You seem awfully desperate to make a case FOR Alcohol Consumption - I mean WELL beyond "it's everybody's own personal prerogative."

Are you sure you're not getting a fat kick-back from the multi-BILLION dollar a year alcohol industry to man these boards and silence ANY & ALL opposition to the Alcohol lobby??

(SHHHHHhhhhh ... I won't tell.)

 

[robert derrick]

The law was against the 'leaven', the 'yeast,' IN the bread. As I have made plainly clear.

Leaven is likened to sin in the Bible.

Leaven/Yeast is an absolute requirement for grape juice to become alcohol.

If somebody wishes for the Bible to support their decision to drink alcohol, they will find scripture to support that decision, BUT ... don't think that there is not also plenty of scripture to support the decision of those who have chosen otherwise, often after a long drawn-out battle with the substance.

And it is not only their right, but their honorable duty, to inform others of their battle and the path to freedom from it. Sometimes all it takes is just one of these verses to turn the tide for those who are suffering because they have so often been told that the Bible completely allows and encourages the drinking of alcoholic.

Are you sure about that?

All of scripture is God's Words.

These verses FROM GOD'S WORDS make CRYSTAL CLEAR that is not the case:

"You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God."
(Deut. 29:6)
"Do not have anything to do with those who drink alcohol."
(Prov. 23:20)
Those who worship demons... "... drink the wine of 'the condemned(those who are dying)' in the house of their god."
(Amos 2:8)
"...It is not for kings to drink wine, Nor for princes intoxicating drink; Lest they drink and forget the Law, and pervert the justice of the afflicted. Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to those who are bitter of heart. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more."
(Proverbs 31:4-7)
"Who has woe,...sorrow,...contentions,...complaints,...wounds without cause,...redness of eyes? Those who linger...at the wine, Those who go in search of mixed wine. ... At the last it bites like a serpent(poison), And stings like a viper(poison). Your eyes will see strange things, And your heart will utter perverse things..."
(Proverbs 23:29-33)
"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, that puts the bottle to them...to make them drunk,...that you may look on their nakedness! You are filled with shame instead of glory. You also - drink! And be exposed... The cup of the Lord's right hand will be turned against you, And utter shame will be on your glory."
(Habakkuk 2:15)

[/QUOTE]
"...don't think that there is not also plenty of scripture to support the decision of those who have chosen otherwise, often after a long drawn-out battle with the substance."

And this is the heart of the matter: Most all Christians preaching against alcohol have either been damaged by drunkenness or know them that have, and so they are very willing to pronounce a transgression, where no transgression is: Wine and strong drink.

And I was one of them, and was therefore easy pickings for the 'holiness' great ones. I already believed alcohol had to be a sin, because of my past life in it. And this is the whole tone being displayed here: Along with the guise of culture and history making and Scriptural twisting, is the pleading for others to understand and accept...for their own good.

No more damage can be done to the spirit and life and liberty of another soul, than to allow themselves to be convinced to obey a commandment of men as a law of God, for their own good...

"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household." (Deut 14)

When it was time to feast, God commanded to do so, including with wine and strong drink. All that your soul desires. There is nothing unclear about this, and God was not commanding rebellious Israelites to go and stuff their bellies full of wine and strong drink, because He knew they would do it anyway. That is a farcical joke that I head someone preach. And I was the fool for being deceived by their ministerial wine.

"Ministry is a mocker, strong lawmaking is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."