Is drinking sin?

[amadeus]

I’ve been thinking more about the verse in
Matthew 27:34 where ‘They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.’

again, not that it matters; I’m only sharing thoughts for your input. I can’t stop thinking about the vinegar mingled with gall, and how when he tasted the vinegar mingled with gall, He would not drink.

These are simply negative things: vinegar and gall.
I have tasted vinegar and did not like it at all. Gall is apparently the contents of the gall bladder is supposed to be extremely bitter. I would not even want to test it with a taste. Yet when Jesus was thirsty that is what men offered him to drink.

Figuratively speaking perhaps, people are both offering and partaking of these things. Maybe they are doctored up to look appetizing and even to taste 'good', but that is Not what they are! How good is the good life that so many people set as their goal on planet Earth? How good is the American way? [Truth, justice and the American way?]

One the reason I keep coming back is regarding this topic about being sober. How can we be sober when we aren’t even sure what being “sober” is? For example the passage on being not of the darkness and of the night, but to be of the day and of the light. all this pointing to being “sober” and to “watch”. How can we say we are “watching” and of those “watching”… if “being sober” is debatable?

For God nothing is debatable! That is a man thing. That men do debate tells something about where they are and where they are not in God. Only God gives any real, "Good" increase! If any person gains in the things of God from participating in or reading some of the debates on this forum, it is because the person is open to God and God is using that means to accomplish His purpose. God is not bound to do that. To presume that He is, is to try to put Him in a box. He does not fit!

What is sober according to men?
What is sober according to God?
Who is going to debate the differences and come up with God's answer?

How does one watch... but according to God? Without ears to hear and eyes to see via the Holy Spirit, are we not deaf and blind? Consider the way of unbelievers and lazy believers versus the believers with their ears and eyes open:

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:15-16

Someone mentioned the mind in regards to what alcohol or drunkenness does to the mind. (unless I’ve misunderstood) being “sober” is connected to “the power of Love, and of a Sound Mind”? What is a Sound Mind if not a “Sober” and “Awake” mind? Consider “Let this mind be in you that was in Christ”

When a person who has received the Holy Spirit is quenching the Spirit in him, how much like God is his mind? How much of the Love, which God is, is being manifested through him?

People who have met the Master are in different places with God for different reasons. Some are babies and need to grow. Some are more mature, and have been growing. Some have been quenching the Spirit and need to stop that so that they can grow! Not to grow is to stagnate and die!

@amadeus this isn’t directed at you but I’m only walking through some passages…why? Because I fear a lot! Of “a sound mind” is needful which brought it back to His tasting of the vinegar mixed with Gall and He would not drink.

You mentioned God gives Good things. I agree which makes me wonder what was in the cup He tasted?

Look at the differences here:

Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Ga 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

What are our works? What are we trying to do? What are we doing? Can we manifest the fruits of the Spirit if we are continuously partaking of the fruits of the flesh instead of the fruits of the Spirit? What are we consuming? The flesh and blood of Jesus?

Have we not been given power to overcome the obstacles standing between us and God?

Are we not able to ask God to help us when we are unable to proceed and win alone? When are we able to proceed in the right direction all alone?

If we are not walking always in the Spirit, what kind of fruits will we show? If we routinely quench the Holy Spirit in us, what kind of fruits will we show?

We need to do the impossible:

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing," I Thess 2:13

"Pray without ceasing" I Thess 5:17

"Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice." Phil 4:4

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

For me what you said is inspiring and lines up with God doesn’t give the spirit of fear again to bondage but the Spirit of of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:7-8 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. [8] Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

Consider that perhaps what He tasted (for every man) was the spirit of fear unto bondage because what else leads to death, which He tasted, but would not drink?
Acts 13:34-37


the spirit of fear again unto bondage…are we not warned it leads to death in “fear not what man can do to the body”. Some may argue He was afraid, yes sweating blood, but after tasting death (the spirit of fear unto bondage?) He did not drink…Did He overcome the spirit of fear unto bondage by submission and trust and Faith instead in the Father that gives not the spirit of fear unto bondage but who gives the Spirit of power, and of Love, and of a sound mind. Consider that He tasted of the spirit of the world, but would not drink? Instead trusting God in all things which overcomes “the world” and the spirit of it?

Give God the glory!

 

[Stan B]

These are simply negative things: vinegar and gall.
I have tasted vinegar and did not like it at all. Gall is apparently the contents of the gall bladder is supposed to be extremely bitter. I would not even want to test it with a taste. Yet when Jesus was thirsty that is what men offered him to drink.

According to Ellicott: It was clearly something at once nauseous and narcotic, given by the merciful to dull the pain of execution, and mixed with the sour wine of the country and with myrrh to make it drinkable. It may have been hemlock, or even poppy-juice,

 

[GEN2REV]

Many Christians drink alcoholic beverages.

Yes, they do.

But what the OP is really asking is: "Is it a sin to knowingly ingest a substance that inevitably leads to sin and causes immediate damage to the body?"

That's the exact question the OP is asking, but refined to the heart of the matter.

What say you?

 

[Stan B]

Yes, they do.

But what the OP is really asking is: "Is it a sin to knowingly ingest a substance that inevitably leads to sin and causes immediate damage to the body?"

That's the exact question the OP is asking, but refined to the heart of the matter.

What say you?

Obviously he was not talking about wine, because it does not inevitably lead to sin, nor cause immediate damage to the body. Maybe he was talking about a Mickey is a drink laced with a psychoactive drug or incapacitating agent.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

According to Ellicott: It was clearly something at once nauseous and narcotic, given by the merciful to dull the pain of execution, and mixed with the sour wine of the country and with myrrh to make it drinkable. It may have been hemlock, or even poppy-juice,

were they giving it to him to be merciful to dull the pain when He said “I thirst”? Unless I’ve misunderstood they were mocking Him. Especially considering On the last day He stood and cried out: if any man thirst, let him come and drink.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

These are simply negative things: vinegar and gall.
I have tasted vinegar and did not like it at all. Gall is apparently the contents of the gall bladder is supposed to be extremely bitter. I would not even want to test it with a taste. Yet when Jesus was thirsty that is what men offered him to drink.

“extremely bitter” to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet. Proverbs 27:7 I used to think that is a good thing, but I’m not sure.

when Jesus was thirsty that is what men offered him to drink, bitter. Ironic that when he was thirsty extremely bitter is offered to Him. the same one that told the woman by the well that if she would have asked, He would have given her living water so she would never thirst again.

 

[GEN2REV]

Obviously he was not talking about wine, because it does not inevitably lead to sin, nor cause immediate damage to the body.

It is sin the moment one becomes intoxicated, but when that moment is, exactly, will never be agreed upon between science and those who imbibe.

And yes, Stan, it does cause immediate damage to the body. Unfortunately for you, that is not debatable.

Alcohol is an irritant to all body tissue, from where it comes in to where it goes out. Alcohol does kill brain cells. Some of those cells can be regenerated over time.

https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/how-alcohol-abuse-affects-your-brain#:~:text=Alcohol is an irritant to,compensate for the lost functions.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It is sin the moment one becomes intoxicated, but when that moment is, exactly, will never be agreed upon between science and those who imbibe.

And yes, Stan, it does cause immediate damage to the body. Unfortunately for you, that is not debatable.
https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/how-alcohol-abuse-affects-your-brain#:~:text=Alcohol is an irritant to,compensate for the lost functions.

I’m not sure if it was you or someone else who mentioned How much alcohol does one have to drink to forget their poverty and to not remember their misery? Proverbs 31:7

 

[amadeus]

“extremely bitter” to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet. Proverbs 27:7 I used to think that is a good thing, but I’m not sure.

when Jesus was thirsty that is what men offered him to drink, bitter. Ironic that when he was thirsty extremely bitter is offered to Him. the same one that told the woman by the well that if she would have asked, He would have given her living water so she would never thirst again.

Jesus offers a cup of Living water, but he had another cup to drink. What other cup is ours to drink? Do we something to suffer before our time here is finished? God knows.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Do we something to suffer before our time here is finished? God knows.

I can relate well to Romans 6:21 What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

 

[BarneyFife]

There is no such ‘evidence’ just unbridled ignorance of those who don’t have the slightest clue what they are talking about. Only a total idiot would figure that a Jewish wedding would be celebrated with grape juice. At the wedding, Jesus made 120 gallons of WINE!

These are the same group of dumb wits that declare that Jesus drank grape juice at the Last Supper. This would be absolutely impossible! As an experienced wine maker, I am quite familiar with the necessary parameters. The Last Supper took place in the Spring at Passover, SIX months after the grape harvest. Without refrigeration, the autumn grape harvest would start being reduced to wine, which would take another month. There is absolutely no way there would be any grape juice in existence at Passover.

There seems to be no limit people will go to twist Scripture into a lie to support their false religion.

Just found this. Don't know if it's scientifically legitimate or not, but it sounds pretty good to me. As far as I know, I'm not really a dumb-witted, ignorant, lying idiot.

Wine in the Bible – How Fermentation Was Prevented
Ryan Hasty
04/13/16 - Alcohol

Wine in the Bible is spoken of as a blessing in its unfermented state and as an intoxicant in its fermented state. Many do not realize that those living in biblical days were able to keep their wine from fermenting and in fact did so regularly. How did they accomplish this in an age without refrigerators? There were 3 primary methods:

First, they boiled their wine down to thick syrup. Boiling grape juice causes the water to evaporate leaving behind a concentrate with such a high level of sugar that fermentation was impossible. Syrup in this state could be preserved for years. Whenever they wanted to drink this unfermented wine, they would mix a small amount of this syrup with water much like we do with our Kool-Aid. Different ratios were used depending on the type of grape, the age of the syrup, the temperature of the water, and even the season.

Prov 9:1-5 – “Wisdom has built her house, she has hewn out her seven pillars; she has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine; she has also set her table; she has sent out her maidens, she calls from the tops of the heights of the city: ‘Whoever is naive, let him turn in here!’ To him who lacks understanding she says, ‘Come, eat of my food and drink of the wine I have mixed.’”

The above verse refers to the mixing of wine as “wisdom” whereas Prov 20:1 refers to a person intoxicated by wine as not being wise. The contrast is clear. Boiling grape juice to prevent it from fermenting and then mixing with water to enjoy as a beverage is incumbent of wisdom and was a blessing from God.

Aristotle – “The wine of Arcadia was so thick that it was necessary to scrape it from the skin bottles in which it was contained and to dissolve the scrapings in water.”

Horace – “There is no wine sweeter to drink than that of Lesbos; it was like nectar . . . and would not produce intoxication.”

Second, those living in biblical times had developed methods to filter wine and remove its strength. While pressing out the grape, they would use a bag called a “sacco” that captured the fermentable substances, allowed the juice from the pulp to flow through, and then collected it in a vase below the bag. Several historians mention this method as in use during biblical times as well as the fact that one of primary reasons they did this is because unfermented wine tastes better.

Pliny The Younger – “The most useful wine has all its force or strength broken by the filter.”

Plutarch – “Wine is rendered feeble in strength when it is frequently filtered. The strength or spirit thus being excluded, the wine neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind and passions, and is much more pleasant to drink.”

This is the testimony of two non-Christian Gentiles confirming that filtration causes wine to taste better because its strength is removed. But they are merely confirming what we already know. Beverages like grape juice begin fermenting when they are going bad, not when they are getting
better. Alcoholic beverages are an “acquired taste” purely for the effects produced in the body by the alcohol and not because it tastes good.

Third, they were able to refrigerate and seal wine. Grape juice kept at 45° or less cannot ferment. If it is kept cool long enough, the yeast settles at the bottom and the juice can be skimmed off of the top where it can never ferment even if warmed. We know from archeology that they stored this kind of wine in caves, under water, and in the ground where it was cooler. So even without refrigerators, they still had the means to keep wine cool. They also kept their containers air tight by corking the bottle and then sealing it with pitch. The Jews also poured olive oil on top to seal the juice from the air. In the 1960s, a sunken ship was discovered at the bottom of the Mediterranean that had containers of wine dating back to the Roman Empire. The containers were sealed so well that water from the sea had not penetrated them.

With multiple ways of preventing fermentation, this is further proof that wine of biblical times was not necessarily alcoholic, but could easily be preserved and enjoyed as a refreshing alternative to water and a blessing from God that provided joy and not intoxication.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes, they do.

But what the OP is really asking is: "Is it a sin to knowingly ingest a substance that inevitably leads to sin and causes immediate damage to the body?"

That's the exact question the OP is asking, but refined to the heart of the matter.

What say you?

Same as before, drinking is not a sin, and no one has to drink. The Chief agent and perfecter of our faith did, but there is no commandment that we have to, unless of course we are in the covenant arrangement, and if we are then every passover we would partake.

 

[amadeus]

I can relate well to Romans 6:21 What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

Remember in this our good friend @bbyrd009 when he has spoken of 'death more abundantly'. The scripture speaks of a very different abundance here:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. John 10:10

The thief is always...so it seems... right there on our doorstep wanting to steal anything and everything good that we have. Let us not ever take our eyes off of Jesus and that thief cannot take away anything good from us... especially that Life more abundantly.

If we take our eyes off of Jesus and look down at the death more abundantly under our feet, like Peter did, and we will surely begin to sink into it. Lots of believers it seems to me do begin to sink, but, unlike Peter, they too often do not call out to Jesus for help before they are submerged into that 'death more abundantly'. Look at the world around us and... What do we see but a whole lot of death...?

Look at our own heart when we ourselves are the ones sinking... Help us dear Lord!

 

[GEN2REV]

Thanks for this post, Barny.

Very effective and informative.

With multiple ways of preventing fermentation, this is further proof that wine of biblical times was not necessarily alcoholic, but could easily be preserved and enjoyed as a refreshing alternative to water and a blessing from God that provided joy and not intoxication.

Not just a refreshing alternative, but loaded with vitamins and nutrients not contained in water as well.

God bless.

 

[GEN2REV]

drinking is not a sin, and no one has to drink. The Chief agent and perfecter of our faith did

For somebody who presents himself as such a sincere Christian here, it's very odd that you would conclude that God/Jesus would EVER ingest alcohol after all the information that's been presented about it in this thread.

Goes to show how many well-meaning Christians are so truly deceived.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
Hosea 4:6

 

[GEN2REV]

Remember in this our good friend @bbyrd009 when he has spoken of 'death more abundantly'. The scripture speaks of a very different abundance here:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. John 10:10

The thief is always...so it seems... right there on our doorstep wanting to steal anything and everything good that we have. Let us not ever take our eyes off of Jesus and that thief cannot take away anything good from us... especially that Life more abundantly.

If we take our eyes off of Jesus and look down at the death more abundantly under our feet, like Peter did, and we will surely begin to sink into it. Lots of believers it seems to me do begin to sink, but, unlike Peter, they too often do not call out to Jesus for help before they are submerged into that 'death more abundantly'. Look at the world around us and... What do we see but a whole lot of death...?

Look at our own heart when we ourselves are the ones sinking... Help us dear Lord!

Yes and alcohol is a drink of Death.

It steals, kills and destroys, just like its creator himself .... Death.

It kills our bodies, our relationships and our careers.

The Bible tells us it is not for priests or kings and, thus, not at all for Christians.

 

[BarneyFife]

Thanks for this post, Barny.

Very effective and informative.
Not just a refreshing alternative, but loaded with vitamins and nutrients not contained in water as well.

God bless.

My pleasure, my friend.

 

[amadeus]

Yes and alcohol is a drink of Death.

It steals, kills and destroys, just like its creator himself .... Death.

It kills our bodies, our relationships and our careers.

The Bible tells us it is not for priests or kings and, thus, not at all for Christians.

Death is certainly all around us while we are still IN this world. Jesus overcame it and made it possible for us to do the same.

What a mighty God we serve!

 

[Robert Gwin]

For somebody who presents himself as such a sincere Christian here, it's very odd that you would conclude that God/Jesus would EVER ingest alcohol after all the information that's been presented about it in this thread.

Goes to show how many well-meaning Christians are so truly deceived.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
Hosea 4:6

Yes sir, many are deceived, as satan is very good at what he does, but for Christians that is an impossibility as God will not allow it. He limits satan in what he is allowed to do to His people.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

many are deceived, as satan is very good at what he does, but for Christians that is an impossibility as God will not allow it.

Not true.

For starters Eve was deceived before the fall of man:

“And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (1 Timothy 2:14)

And Christians are warned over and over not to be deceived:

“Take heed that ye be not deceived” (Luke 21:8)

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived” (1 Corinthians 6:9)

“Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.” (1 Corinthians 15:33)

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” (Galatians 6:7)

“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:22)

You do therefore greatly err in saying it is impossible for a Christian to be deceived.