Is Faith in Jesus Faith to Keep the Law?
- Thread starter marks
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
If that is what you think of Christ says much about your faith..
Mat_11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
It is ironic that sometimes those who choose, by the grace and power of God, to uphold and honour God's law, are accused of having the "law" as an idol. Or that those who keep the commandments are "working their way" to heaven. Salvation by works. Why ironic? Because the writer of the Ten Commandments said exactly the opposite in the context of the very commandment that warns against idolatry. Hear the word of the Lord....
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
The really interesting sentence is the bolded portion above. That word...mercy. In Hebrew is...
02617 חסד checed kheh’-sed
This word is variously translated as love, unfailing love, loving kindness, steadfast love, goodness, mercy, merciful kindness, or faithfulness. The entire OT faith of the Hebrew people stood on 3 pillars...chesed (grace)...berit (covenant) and torah (teachings). But that word, chesed, is an act that has no cause...no justification apart from the goodness of God. Creation itself is the ultimate expression of chesed. Grace. Something we receive...life...that has no basis in merit. Chesed is love that stoops, bows down to and departs from any normal line of descent or retribution. chesed is love that is kind when justice often dictates otherwise. Chesed is love that condescends to way below its originator. Chesed is the OT equivalent to the NT word, charis Gr...grace. It reveals to us that the plan of salvation has always been the same throughout human history. The Jews were never saved by their obedience to the law. And yet God is here in the very heart of the Ten Commandments, the one that deals explicitly with idolatry, saying that He gives grace to those who keep His commandments. Not those who don't keep them, but to those who do! Does that mean that grace is now given on merit because of obedience? NO! For that would destroy the very meaning of grace. So like everything else in scripture, because scripture does not contradict itself, we must therefore bring all the scripture together to establish a whole...without doing violence to any component part. Can do we do that here?
James did it, and Martin Luther discovered it as the greatest rebuke against the Catholic Church which advocated justification by works.
Faith without works is dead.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
The really interesting sentence is the bolded portion above. That word...mercy. In Hebrew is...
02617 חסד checed kheh’-sed
This word is variously translated as love, unfailing love, loving kindness, steadfast love, goodness, mercy, merciful kindness, or faithfulness. The entire OT faith of the Hebrew people stood on 3 pillars...chesed (grace)...berit (covenant) and torah (teachings). But that word, chesed, is an act that has no cause...no justification apart from the goodness of God. Creation itself is the ultimate expression of chesed. Grace. Something we receive...life...that has no basis in merit. Chesed is love that stoops, bows down to and departs from any normal line of descent or retribution. chesed is love that is kind when justice often dictates otherwise. Chesed is love that condescends to way below its originator. Chesed is the OT equivalent to the NT word, charis Gr...grace. It reveals to us that the plan of salvation has always been the same throughout human history. The Jews were never saved by their obedience to the law. And yet God is here in the very heart of the Ten Commandments, the one that deals explicitly with idolatry, saying that He gives grace to those who keep His commandments. Not those who don't keep them, but to those who do! Does that mean that grace is now given on merit because of obedience? NO! For that would destroy the very meaning of grace. So like everything else in scripture, because scripture does not contradict itself, we must therefore bring all the scripture together to establish a whole...without doing violence to any component part. Can do we do that here?
James did it, and Martin Luther discovered it as the greatest rebuke against the Catholic Church which advocated justification by works.
Faith without works is dead.
Hey my friend.
None of these people are as easily offended as you may think.
And more than most firmly believe that how "they" see and believe things , is how it is and must be!!
You are doing well brother.
I enjoy your posts...and greatly appreciate your gentle spirit.
And, don't forget. We have MANY legalist in the membership here!!!
Thank you! And, to be sure, I'm not truly sure whether I've offended or not. People sometimes pull that out as another form of perjorative, or ad hominem, so I like to try to pull it out into the open, so we can see if there was truly some offence, or if this is just another way of deflecting a debate away from facts.
And yes, I'm discovering that there are a number of people here dead set on keeping the Mosaic Covenant between God and Israel.
For me, as a gentile, it's like saying I owe income tax for what Fred and Barney earned at the quarry. Not. I only owe my own taxes, not another.
Much love!
Mark
It's very easy to throw the personal comments into a debate, but I do like calling attention to them, both to try to bring into the light what is occurring, but also with the hope that people will re-look at what they wrote, to see if it truly says what they want to say.
Take for instance the comment about crowing and roostership, or whatever that was. Is that really the characterization that was intended? Is this person really negating the content of my comments to the point that I could just as well be saying, "CRAWWW! CRAWWW!"?
Is that truly what is in their mind? If so, I question the purpose in even responding to me!
But if instead, as I suspect, this is simply an effort to discredit my statements without actually addressing them, then perhaps there may be opportunity to rethink the matter, and if there is actually an argument against what I've posted, to then offer it.
So I write in hope.
Much love!
Mark
If we kept the Law, why would we need Faith? The works of the Law would be our life, and would give our reward.
Oh . . . and what would be the reward? What does the Law say?
We'll be blessed in the Promised Land. Our crops would be fantastic, we'd be rich rich rich! We'd be the "head of nations", debtors to no other nation.
Of course, if we don't keep the Law, our crops will fail, we'll be poor, the sky as bronze and the dirt as iron, until we are removed from the promised land - though we don't lose ownership, just the right to live there - to be taken as slaves by our enemies.
Oh, wait, that sound's like it really only applies to the people to whom God gave the Promised Land. Oh, unless you spiritualize things. Then it can mean whatever you want.
Much love!
mark
Oh . . . and what would be the reward? What does the Law say?
We'll be blessed in the Promised Land. Our crops would be fantastic, we'd be rich rich rich! We'd be the "head of nations", debtors to no other nation.
Of course, if we don't keep the Law, our crops will fail, we'll be poor, the sky as bronze and the dirt as iron, until we are removed from the promised land - though we don't lose ownership, just the right to live there - to be taken as slaves by our enemies.
Oh, wait, that sound's like it really only applies to the people to whom God gave the Promised Land. Oh, unless you spiritualize things. Then it can mean whatever you want.
Much love!
mark
That would be the "law of Christ". Which is anything but weak and beggardly. I would never speak of Christ that way.
Your objection was answered by Paul. But not without law. We are all under Law, but not someone else's Law. We are not under the covenant made between God and the Israelites at Horeb. But we are under Christ, our head.
Much love!
Last edited:
Helen
Well-Known Member
- Oct 22, 2011
- 15,476
- 21,157
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Canada
Do I presume correctly that you agree that the only law that we are 'under' is "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which has made us free from the law of sin and death. "
The law of the Spirit of life ..."Love God with everything you have &....love thy neighbour ... "
? ? ?
I think we are pretty much resoundingly on the same page.
Our commandments are not hard, just to trust in Jesus, and love each other.
The Law of the Spirit of Life, to me, is speaking of the contrast against how sin and death used to work in us. We lived under a principle, a law, that sin would work death in us. And that's it. That's our life. Oh great!
But now we are free from that law, now that a new principle works in us, a new Law, of the Spirit of Life in Jesus Christ. Under this Law, the Spirit of Christ works life in us. Now that's our life. And that really IS great!
Oh, and, Law given at Horeb was meant to increase sin, and to make sin exceedingly sinful. It was made for the unrighteous and ungodly, but now that we are in Christ, even if we were Jews, we're done with all that. We've come to the Source.
Much love!
Mark
Looking back on this . . . yes, this is what the law of the Spirit of life will produce in us.
Much love!
Mark
The finest post from you I have yet read. Thank you.
Still... "'Creation itself is the ultimate expression of chesed. Grace.'" Not Christ? Would creation even existed Died and Rose Jesus not for the grace of God from the dead again?
Man, to find a Seventh day Adventist who comprehend that. . .
Despite you think you and Grace are resoundingly on the same page, no one except you ever expressed such a crap thought here.
Mark the facts Marks, you're not a great thinker or apologist or theologian or philosopher.
Last edited:
Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
"'...this is what...'" neither the Law of God nor the "Spirit of Reproof of SIN and of Judgement and of Righteousness" "the Righteousness of Christ" "the Righteousness of GOD" do not and never will "'produce in us'".
Could do it the other way, if we have Faith, why than do we need the law, if we believe that Christ has done all He needed to do to save us, what work is it that we could possibly do to out do Him, and if we dont believe He has done do enough, wouldnt that put us into unbelief,
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
By the Law commanding the Sabbath to be kept the few who have learned about it, have to die, not because of the Law commanding the Sabbath to be kept, but because by the Law commanding "'"Love God with everything you have &....love thy neighbour"'", "ALL HAVE SINNED" and ALL from the beginning until the end MUST -by Law- DIE because ALL including the few Sabbath Commandment transgressors later on, disobeying God became transgressors of “‘The law of the Spirit of life ..."Love God with everything you have &....love thy neighbour’” and HAVE TO DIE.
Increasing their woe and plight, transgressors feel they must lie about their miserable state rather than let God and let the Spirit convince / reproof of SIN, of Judgement and of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin and the Righteousness which is of God...IN CHRIST!”
Last edited:
You still cant see it can you,
Rom_2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
men died because of sin, it was the law that bought judgement, before Moses was given the law men died, without the law, when Moses gave the law to Israel, they died under the law. and who where under the law perished, even today, because no man will ever be saved by the law, not one.
Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Could not because it IS not "'the other way'". We do NOT have faith; we do NOT believe; but do believe "'we could ... out do Him'". ALL OUR LIVES, friend, ALL OUR LIVES, do not be fooled or fowled.
No; it's you who still can't 'see it' - won't see it! You cannot more directly contradict what you quoted written!
You, "'it was the law that brought judgement'".
Written, Rom_2:12 "as many as have sinned shall be judged".
The LAW didn't bring sinners' judgement; SIN brought sinners' judgement; and sinners' judgement brought the Law; not the "'law .. judgement'".
Similar threads
