Is Faith in Jesus Faith to Keep the Law?

[marks]

The contrast between the two laws is stark. The obvious symbology in the entire process was also clear and evident.

Hi brakelite,

If the separation between the Law and the law, if you will, depends on one "just being able to see it", then where is the authority?

When I find symbols in Scripture, if symbols these be, I look for Scripture to define those symbols. Otherwise, I can pick anything and say, This is a symbol! But actually it is not. That is, unless Scripture tells me so.

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Now of course everything Paul wrote above is true and correct. But then elsewhere he wrote:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law....and
7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Is he really speaking of the same law...the same whole entire Torah? One a curse, the other holy just and good? One that cannot justify, and one that we establish through faith?

The Law is not a curse, the Law is good if one uses it lawfully. But the Law curses you for not keeping it. We don't keep it, no one does, so all are condemned by it. We are under it's curse, though the Law itself is not a curse.

The Law is not of faith, but the Just shall live by Faith.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Taken]

Hi Gerhard,

I missed this the first time through, but I think this makes sense to me, at least, in a certain way.

2 Corinthians 3:18 says that we are beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, and are being transformed into His image, from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I take that to mean that as our lives begin to conform to His will, and we see the goodness of His way in ourselves, we see His glory, the perfection of His Will in lifting the fleshly to become the godly, we see His glory in us, transforming us, His glory becomes our glory (lit. out of glory into glory, think Christmas tag, "From: Glory; To: Glory"), a work of His Spirit.

And to wear the righteousness of Christ, put on the new man, created in God's likeness, in righteousness and true holiness, and, He became sin Who knew no sin that we may become the righteousness of God in Him.

We are recreated righteous with Jesus' righteousness, and as God transforms us, we fulfill the Word which tells us to put off the old man, and put on the new.

Much love!
Mark

I Believe once a man is Converted the relationship between that man and Thee Lord God Almighty is Sealed.

With the Indwelling Power of God the man has the power of God to THEN pursue FINE tuning Gods Precepts and pursuing their access to Gods understanding to THEN speak the Word of God with confidence to those willing to hear.

Seems to me every gift from God is a new preparation for a next step of a man becoming more and more Christ Like...
He being our perfect example.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Yes because God cannot change who he is because he created the heavens and the Earth and governs the way people act. Many people choose to be led astray because they transgress against the law. God's judgement shall come upon them because they adopt their own set of principles and become idols themselves.

And you nor anyone else is an exception to this rule / law.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I Believe once a man is Converted the relationship between that man and Thee Lord God Almighty is Sealed.

With the Indwelling Power of God the man has the power of God to THEN pursue FINE tuning Gods Precepts and pursuing their access to Gods understanding to THEN speak the Word of God with confidence to those willing to hear.

Seems to me every gift from God is a new preparation for a next step of a man becoming more and more Christ Like...
He being our perfect example.

The older I get and wiser I believe, the surer I get that I am becoming more and more unlike Christ and more and more totally dependent on Him for my salvation.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The LAW no longer demands or constrains or has subjection to negative consequences.

The 'LAW' which "'no longer demands'" or "'no longer constrains or no longer has subjection to negative consequences'" would be the stupidest thing ever; and God's Law is never stupid.

 

[marks]

The Law commands, Do Not Steal.
Love wants to work extra hard to be able to give to those in need.

The Law commands, Do Not Lie.
Love wants to share truth, the truth sets free.

The Law commands, Do Not Commit Adultery.
Love has fidelity.

The Law commands, Do not covet.
He loves us, and provides everything I need.

When you love, why do you need a commandment?

 

[marks]

The 'LAW' which "'no longer demands'" or "'no longer constrains or no longer has subjection to negative consequences'" would be the stupidest thing ever; and God's Law is never stupid.

Is it so stupid for the law of marriage to end with the death of a spouse?

Much love!
mark

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The Law is not of faith, but the Just shall live by Faith.

It is no true believer who regard the Law of God a matter not of faith for the just with regard to the Law shall live by faith.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The Law commands, Do Not Steal.
Love wants to work extra hard to be able to give to those in need.

The Law commands, Do Not Lie.
Love wants to share truth, the truth sets free.

The Law commands, Do Not Commit Adultery.
Love has fidelity.

The Law commands, Do not covet.
He loves us, and provides everything I need.

When you love, why do you need a commandment?

The Law commands, Do Not Steal; love no different. But the 'love' which parades it wants to work extra hard to be able to give to those in need, is a lying braggart.

The Law commands, Do Not Lie; love no different. 'Love' sets not free from truth, but brings under the bondage of Truth.

The Law commands, Do Not Commit Adultery; love no different. Love is fidelity to the Law.

The Law commands, Do not covet; love no different. God who is Love loves us, and provides everything I need. "Yea, the LORD shall give that which is good and our land shall yield her increase. Righteousness shall go before Him and shall set us in the Way of his steps. ... Surely Salvation is night them that fear Him ... MERCY AND TRUTH MET TOGETHER, RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PEACE KISSED EACH OTHER : TRUTH shall spring out of the earth and RIGHTEOUSNESS shall look down from heaven." Psalm 84:8, "I will hear what GOD the LORD WILL SPEAK (HIS WORD IS LAW): for He will Speak PEACE unto his people and to his saints : BUT LET THEM NOT TURN AGAIN TO FOLLY" such as "'when you love, why do you need a commandment?'"

 

[Waiting on him]

MERCY AND TRUTH MET TOGETHER, RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PEACE KISSED EACH OTHER : TRUTH shall spring out of the earth and RIGHTEOUSNESS shall look down from heaven."

What does this mean??

 

[brakelite]

When you love, why do you need a commandment?

Because the vast majority of people today have not a clue what real love is. For example. Jesus said, "A new commandment I give unto you. That ye love one another...not as the world loves...but as I have loved you". How many Christians do you know who have laid down their lives for others in the church? Or for their spouse?

 

[marks]

The Law commands, Do Not Steal; love no different. But the 'love' which parades it wants to work extra hard to be able to give to those in need, is a lying braggart.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

That if I love my friend, and put in some extra work so I can supply what he needs, I'm a prideful liar?

But I'll go back to what I said before. Love doesn't have to be told, don't take, because love gives. Where is the commandment?

It's just like me ordering you to breathe.

The Law commands, Do Not Lie; love no different. 'Love' sets not free from truth, but brings under the bondage of Truth.

I really don't know what you mean. Love want's people to know what is true. There is no need for a commandment Thou Shalt Not Lie, since Love doesn't.

Much love!
mark

 

[marks]

Because the vast majority of people today have not a clue what real love is. For example. Jesus said, "A new commandment I give unto you. That ye love one another...not as the world loves...but as I have loved you". How many Christians do you know who have laid down their lives for others in the church? Or for their spouse?

So teach them to love. Not to put them under a commandment which the apostle said people couldn't keep anyway.

Much love!
Mark

 

[brakelite]

Your teaching projects the understanding;
When a man is become Converted (ie a spiritual man), such a man CAN therefore OBEY the Law.

Whereas my understanding is;
When a man is become Converted (ie a spiritual man), such a man HAS become accomplished (by the Power of God) That the LAW IS FULFILLED.

The LAW beomes FULTILLED, MOOT.

The LAW no longer demands or constrains or has subjection to negative consequences.

The POWER of God supersedes the LAW.
The POWER of God imparts RIGHTEOUSNESS, desire, strength, beyond the confines of the Law.

You are trying to LIMIT Gods power "within you" to be Limited in accordance with the LAW....by teaching Gods Power can help you KEEP the LAW.

Whereas I say, the Law is fulfilled, and Gods POWER 'within me", has no limits.

Taken

Which to some extent I agree, but you leave out character development...sanctification. I agree there are no limits. If we are transformed by the renewing of our minds that we have the mind of Christ, there are no limits. But this change is a real-time vital and sometimes radical alteration in man's whole worldview and way of life. This isn't an exercise in "virtual reality". It isn't just a book entry that God writes down in the books of heaven like some clever accounting. Harmony with God's commandments is simply the bare minimum. But it is real.
God does indeed look upon us as if we had never sinned once we are born again. But He does not leave us to languish powerless and defenseless against temptation and the pressures and lusts of the flesh and the world. Victory over sin is, and was, one of the primary purposes of Christ's first advent. He did not circumvent the law to accomplish this, but to exalt the law...lift it up...make it honourable. And as we abide in Him, attached as we are to the Vine, the very same mindset grows within us...it cannot help but be so. It is a natural law that the fruit is a reflection of the mother plant, and the seeds reproducing the same...thus so long as we are attached to the vine, just as Christ walked in harmony and in obedience to God's commandments, so also shall we. We cannot help but do otherwise. And as you say, much much more besides. But just as Israel couldn't enter the promised land without bypassing Sinai, nor can we.

 

[marks]

Acts 15:5-11

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Not even the apostles?

But I'm learning the arguments. I understand now that you will say, aha! This was "the Law of Moses", not "the Law of God".

That's one of the reasons I love these forums!

Not that someone here is making this argument, but I found this:

There are two laws that are made crystal clear in the following verses below. Daniel 9:10 is talking about God's law and verse 11 is talking about Moses' law:
"Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets."
"Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him." Daniel 9:10,11

Special Note: Please note that God's law also called the 10 Commandments has existed at least as long as sin has existed. The Bible says, "Where no law is, there is no transgression [or sin]." Romans 4:15. So God's Ten Commandment law existed from the beginning. Men broke that law. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

From: Moses Law vs. God's Ten Commandment Law

It may seem to some that two laws are being referenced, but I'd like to point out, in this passage above, "God's Law" was given by his servants the prophets, not by God's finger on the stone. So God must be including more than the 10 commandments.

The curse for breaking God's Law, through the prophets, is written in the Law of Moses. Same.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

God does indeed look upon us as if we had never sinned once we are born again.

When we're born again we haven't sinned. It's not just an accounting trick. It's a reality.

Much love!

 

[brakelite]

So teach them to love. Not to put them under a commandment which the apostle said people couldn't keep anyway.

Much love!
Mark

But a born again person can keep the commandments. And as you suggested, he does so through love...love meets all the criteria of living in harmony with the law. So to what purpose the law if we can love? To inform us when our love is falling short of that minimum standard as set out in the law. Remember that new commandment? Love as Jesus loved? Self-sacrificial love? Nothing in any commandment to describe that...but if we are disobeying just one of the Ten, how can we ever hope to obey the 11th? When the commandment comes and informs us we are falling short, it isn't telling us to love more...it isn't telling us to try harder to obey...it is telling us to draw closer to Christ, because without Him we can do nothing...but in Him all things are possible.
So the law is still there as the minimum standard in character and the minimum standard in the judgement. And we still need it as the benchmark to gauge if we are truly in the faith. If we are truly and fully connected to the vine. The Bible says that the law was made for the sinner, the unrighteous, the profane and the disobedient. Very true. Even for the Christian who when he reads the law, and discovers, as Paul did, that he was covetous, did he say, "hold up, that isn't talking to me because I am in Christ"? No, even as a Christian, the law still points out sin. Even Christians can "lose their first love" , and need to repent. And that loss of love inevitably results in transgression against the commandments. That loss of first love in the early church led to the Papacy.
Can Christians have idols? Absolutely. Do they love God with all the heart, soul, body and spirit? Not always. Do they remember to keep holy God's Sabbath day? Some, but most refuse to recognise that because it means a certain death to self and turning away from the popular and the traditional. Do Christians love God that much, to allow themselves to stand up for truth though the rest of the Christian world condemns them as heretics and frauds? Not many.

 

[marks]

To inform us when our love is falling short of that minimum standard as set out in the law.

Falling short of the minimum standard? I don't see this anywhere in the Bible.

Why this desire to hold so tightly to the tutor when majority is here?

 

[Waiting on him]

Acts 15:5-11

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Not even the apostles?

But I'm learning the arguments. I understand now that you will say, aha! This was "the Law of Moses", not "the Law of God".

That's one of the reasons I love these forums!

Not that someone here is making this argument, but I found this:


From: Moses Law vs. God's Ten Commandment Law

It may seem to some that two laws are being referenced, but I'd like to point out, in this passage above, "God's Law" was given by his servants the prophets, not by God's finger on the stone. So God must be including more than the 10 commandments.

The curse for breaking God's Law, through the prophets, is written in the Law of Moses. Same.

Much love!
Mark

Hebrews 3 is a excellent chapter to explain as to why flesh Israel didn’t enter in to his rest.

 

[brakelite]

When we're born again we haven't sinned. It's not just an accounting trick. It's a reality.

Much love!

And how long does that last?