Is Faith in Jesus Faith to Keep the Law?

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brakelite

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Falling short of the minimum standard? I don't see this anywhere in the Bible.

Why this desire to hold so tightly to the tutor when majority is here?
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The tutor/schoolmaster is still needed for those who sin...they still need to be directed to Christ. Sure, the law cannot cleanse anyone of sin...its sole purpose is to direct people to the Saviour. Yet Christians still continue to live as if there is no law...they clearly are not listening to Christ...why would they listen to the risen Christ if they ignore Moses?
 

VictoryinJesus

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Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The tutor/schoolmaster is still needed for those who sin...they still need to be directed to Christ. Sure, the law cannot cleanse anyone of sin...its sole purpose is to direct people to the Saviour. Yet Christians still continue to live as if there is no law...they clearly are not listening to Christ...why would they listen to the risen Christ if they ignore Moses?


Matthew 5:17-20
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

“...but to fulfill.” He just told us He came to fulfill it.

18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What did He say He came to do? “to not destory but fulfill.” 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15-16
[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. [16] And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

“...to fulfill.” Old things passed away; behold, all things are become new. Romans 7:3-4 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

he didn’t come to destory the Law but to fulfill it. A ‘new’ creature passed from death under the ministration of condemnation into Life ...created in Christ. free to serve the living God. Death (by the Law) which is good and resurrection to walk in newness of life(under Christ) which is better.

Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

-That is what was ‘exalted’ ‘lifted up’ for man to see ...those fruits of the Spirit fully displayed in the Son whom overcome death and sin.

Matthew 22:37-40
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
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Taken

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Matthew 5:17-20
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

“...but to fulfill.” He just told us He came to fulfill it.

Correct!!

Jesus is our "example".
Thus "IF" we do what He did...
We also "fulfil".

And those who do not..."remain" under the law. <--- Jews who believe IN God, but not Christ Jesus the MESSIAH.

And those who were NOT under the Law ..
^ Gentiles; can reject belief in God and Christ Jesus
Or choose to NOT be under the Law..
^ Jews; can leave their first love...ie God.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Taken

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The 'LAW' which "'no longer demands'" or "'no longer constrains or no longer has subjection to negative consequences'" would be the stupidest thing ever; and God's Law is never stupid.

It is not a reference to Gods law being stupid.
It is a reference to Gods law being fulfilled.
OT men could not fulfill the Law without God.

NT men and forward can not fulfill the Law without God and Christ Jesus...
The Fulfillment is accomplished in a man, by and through a man having received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit; which is the power that accomplishes the fulfillment in a man.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Taken

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Which to some extent I agree, but you leave out character development...

Perhaps you could reference a Scripture about character development, so I know what you are talking about.

sanctification.

^ That is a gift unto the body of a man who has become converted.


If we are transformed by the renewing of our minds that we have the mind of Christ, there are no limits.

Correct.

But this change is a real-time vital and sometimes radical alteration in man's whole worldview and way of life. This isn't an exercise in "virtual reality". It isn't just a book entry that God writes down in the books of heaven like some clever accounting. Harmony with God's commandments is simply the bare minimum. But it is real.

You are mixing two things...
The Lords ACTS
The mans ACTS

1) Fact...what the Lord DOES within a man.
2) Fact...what the man DOES with his gift.

God does indeed look upon us as if we had never sinned once we are born again.

Correct...and WHY?
1) Because He Forgave us

Forgave us...OF WHAT?
2) Not believing IN Him

As IF we had never sinned?
3) Our body of sin STILL EXISTS.
4) Our SIN is "COVERED"
5) With Gods LIGHT, (his INDWELLING Spirit)
6) SIN is "darkness"
7) Light Overcomes Darkness.
8) The Darkness can no longer BE SEEN.
9) That which God does not SEE, He remembers no more.
10) It is men who claim they Continue to SIN.
11) While the Lords Light within, is SUFFICIENT, to KEEP a man FROM continuing to SIN.

But He does not leave us to languish powerless and defenseless against temptation and the pressures and lusts of the flesh and the world.

Never said anything to that effect.

Victory over sin is, and was, one of the primary purposes of Christ's first advent.

No kidding....uh...Baptism of the Holy Spirit!

He did not circumvent the law to accomplish this, but to exalt the law...lift it up...make it honourable.

The LAW, The LAW, The LAW...
Come on. Gentiles were not given The LAW!

The LAW, was given the Hebrews/Jews.
The LAW, OF the Jews, was being set aside, and the Jews following after Gentile WAYS.

Jesus came to SEEK the "LOST JEWS".
The Jews who had "LOST" their WAY, of following after God, and instead, "following after Gentiles Ways and "statue" gods, and "moon" gods, or no "god" at all!

The JEWS were LOST, because they were forsaking their FIRST LOVE....Thee true God.

A man is not LOST, less he have first believed and then Wandered off.
(That did not apply to Gentiles)

And as we abide in Him, attached as we are to the Vine, the very same mindset grows within us...it cannot help but be so. It is a natural law that the fruit is a reflection of the mother plant, and the seeds reproducing the same...thus so long as we are attached to the vine, just as Christ walked in harmony and in obedience to God's commandments, so also shall we. We cannot help but do otherwise. And as you say, much much more besides. But just as Israel couldn't enter the promised land without bypassing Sinai, nor can we.

Scripture is a guide FOR ALL people.
It is full of knowledge ABOUT ALL people.
ALL people are not the SAME in what they believe.

Thus Scripture DOES NOT APPLY to ALL people the SAME.

When Scripture is speaking ABOUT Hebrews/Jews...and that is NOT you, why apply that TO YOU?

The NT focuses on men...
1) Jews who were LOST, (no longer having God as part of their daily lives).
2) Jews who were be LEAD by hypocrites, (elevating themselves, and expecting the people to also "elevate" them)
3) Bringing God back into the Center point of a Jews life.......AND
4) Introducting their Christ MESSIAH Savior.

Jesus' Message is Concrete...
Believe In BOTH....Father AND His Son.

5) a FEW Jews Accepted "BOTH"
6) Those Jews Became ACCOMPLISHED, in fulfilling "THEIR" LAW.
7) Many Jews "tried" to DO as the Apostals taught, and as the JEWISH Apostals began dying off, and their message NOT carried ON, BY JEWISH MEN...
8) Jews began "reverting" to FOLLOWING JEWISH LAWS...."again".
9) Jewish LAWS....BELIEVE IN GOD...
10) Jewish LAWS 'DO NOT" have an inclusion of their MESSIAH "having YET arrived".

So WHILE Christ Jesus, FULFILLED the LAW, by HAVING ARRIVED, and offering the gift of SALVATION "then/now"... (ie Fulfilling the LAW).....if a Jew, doesn't believe that....
FOR THEM.....their LAW, is not fulfilled..

AND WHY...Jesus DID NOT "DESTROY" the
LAW, (given the Jews). "THEY" can "CONTINUE" to 'follow" the Law....(or they can continue to be LOST, and follow whatever they want).
"THEY" are the "ELECT".
God has a PLAN, for them to BE "SAVED"...
And it requires "THEM" To:
1) Believe in God & Jesus
Or
2) Believe in God, & remain true to their Law
(And WAIT, for Gods "sending" of "JEWS" to teach them their Jewish Messiah IS Jesus Christ)...ie 2 witnesses, 144,000 Jews!!

Then there are the Gentiles, who began Converting ... by and through HEARING, JEWISH MEN, (and Jesus Himself) teaching of
JESUS, the Christ.
The Gentiles, began believing IN JESUS, then were also "introduced" to thee Heavenly God.

(Sort of backwards of how the Jews learned)
ie Jews learned of God first, then Jesus.
Ie Gentiles learned of Jesus first, then God.

The Gentiles were readily (for the most part) accepting of Christ Jesus...over what?
Moon gods, statue gods, etc.
Gentiles began believing and then what....?

Gentiles TEACH Gentiles....NOT JEWS.
Gentiles congregate together, open invitations to umpteen million Churches...and who flocks to the Churches? Jews? Muslims? Buddhists?....No. For the greater part...Gentiles...and Gentiles form missionaries and go and spread the Word of God.

It is primarily JEWS who continue in The LAW.
It is JEWS who continue in The LAW, who have to do that, BY THEIR OWN power and determination. And IF they continue, endure the Lawful Obedience, repeatedly ASK for Forgiveness of their SINS, till their end of life, THEY WILL BE SAVED.

Where as a man WHO has Accepted BELIEF, in BOTH....God, the Father AND Son...AND
Confesses their heartfelt BELIEF...<--->
THEY BECOME "FORGIVEN", once and forever.
THEIR Salvation is GIFTED TO THEM....
THEN..Immediately...ONCE and forever.
THEIR FaithFULLNES..is FOREVER, effected by the POWER of the internal HOLY SPIRIT, that ....KEEPS them Faith-FULL forever.
They can NEVER AGAIN stand in disbelief OF
God the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
....and precisely WHY they are FREE FROM SIN...and can SIN NO MORE.

That man ^^ has TWO LAWS...
Love thy Lord God above all, & Love all others.
(THAT does not hinge on the man KEEPING those LAWS.
THAT DOES hinge on the POWER of the HS within that KEEPS the man fulfilled in those TWO LAWS)

The Relationship BETWEEN that man...
AND thee Lord God Almighty...IS SEALED!!
THE man Loves thee Lord God...
Thee Lord God Loves the man....
It is a SEALED "AGREEMENT" between TWO..
""IN AGREEMENT"" !!

Thereafter...the man does not struggle to KEEP ANY LAWS...Not statues or Laws of the JEWS...

Thereafter...it is ABOUT..."PRECEPTS"..

PRECEPTS, are about BEHAVIORS between,
MAN and MAN.

IS every man "IN AGrEEMENT" with every other man? No.

Does the Lord CHANGE Every man and make them Love you, Like you, want to Listen to you, agree with you, blah, blah...? No.

Scripture Teaches "PRECEPTS", of how a man can get along with men even when they disagree...

THAT is an ongoing process, and leads a man to being Christ-Like in dealing with other men, whom they are not in agreement.

Lying, Cheating, deceiving, etc.....
Is another ACT....between men.
You may be the one being LIED to, or CHeATeD....or be the one LYING or CHEATING....<--- those are trespasses BETWEEN MEN
(Unless you are a Jew Under the Law, then it is a SIN).

Trespasses between MEN. Men have the authority to FORGIVE other men of Trespasses Against them.

And if you are the Trespasser toward another man...Scripture teaches to RIGHT your WRONG..."AND"...boo hoo..."YOU" suffer the consequences of your having wronged another man...

Maybe whoever you wronged will forgive you, maybe not. Maybe they will divorce you, take your kids, your house, your possessions, your bank $$. Maybe they will sue you in court. Maybe they will attack you. Maybe they will write a book about you, or make web pages about how lying and cheating you are.
Get the point?
You have to DEAL with the consequences...

And WHY, learning the Lords PRECEPTS, are practicing them, is beneficial to you, to try and avoid such negative consequences...

For when a man learns the Lords precepts...and puts them to use...and STILL another is determined to be AGAINST you...

Scripture teaches.....depart away from the other...
Or
If the other prevails in UNJUST behavior toward you...(perhaps an UNJUST court sentence, as innocent but in prison)...
THEN
Turn to the Lord.......FOR HIS Comfort.

THAT is a reality. Men do NOT all believe the same, nor will treat one another with love or what is JUST...

We are not accountable for what OTHERS believe or DO......only ourselves.

IF we do Wrong and Right it, that is accounted to us.

If we are Wronged, we have the Lord to help us THROUGH the hardship, and leaning on and Trustiing Him, is accounted to us.

Learn what DOES and Does not Scripturally apply to you, and WHY.

Three DIFFERENT things...

Neh 9:
[14] ... precepts, statutes, and laws ..

Gory to God.
Taken
 
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mjrhealth

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The Law commands, Do Not Steal; love no different. But the 'love' which parades it wants to work extra hard to be able to give to those in need, is a lying braggart.

The Law commands, Do Not Lie; love no different. 'Love' sets not free from truth, but brings under the bondage of Truth.

The Law commands, Do Not Commit Adultery; love no different. Love is fidelity to the Law.

The Law commands, Do not covet; love no different. God who is Love loves us, and provides everything I need. "Yea, the LORD shall give that which is good and our land shall yield her increase. Righteousness shall go before Him and shall set us in the Way of his steps. ... Surely Salvation is night them that fear Him ... MERCY AND TRUTH MET TOGETHER, RIGHTEOUSNESS AND PEACE KISSED EACH OTHER : TRUTH shall spring out of the earth and RIGHTEOUSNESS shall look down from heaven." Psalm 84:8, "I will hear what GOD the LORD WILL SPEAK (HIS WORD IS LAW): for He will Speak PEACE unto his people and to his saints : BUT LET THEM NOT TURN AGAIN TO FOLLY" such as "'when you love, why do you need a commandment?'"

Do you need a law to stop you beating up your kids when they make a mistake.
Do you need a law to forgive those who hurt you.
do you need a law to not speed.
do you need a law to stop your raping your neighbors wife
do you need a law so you wont steal
do you need a law that grants you faith In Jesus

Does grace beat up those who fall and make mistakes, does faith fail when a man sins, is not a gift only a gift when it is not earned, if God was to condemn a man for being a man would not that make Him a hypocrite, and Jesus a liar.

" I offer you this gift but if you sin I am going to take it away from you".

Who do you think God is, ??
 
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Windmillcharge

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Yes because we earn salvation based on our ability to trust and obey God. Love displays our ability to trust and obey him because God does not grant salvation without works.

No. No we do NOT earn our salvation.

How does one Earn a FREE gift.

Our good deeds etc etc are only an expression of our love for Jesus.
 

Taken

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The Law commands, Do Not Steal.
Love wants to work extra hard to be able to give to those in need.

The Law commands, Do Not Lie.
Love wants to share truth, the truth sets free.

The Law commands, Do Not Commit Adultery.
Love has fidelity.

The Law commands, Do not covet.
He loves us, and provides everything I need.

When you love, why do you need a commandment?

If a man were to closely examine the Ten Commandments....
And
Closely examine the Big Picture that Scripture teaches...

Do not lie, steal, covet, commit adultry,this holy day, etc...

Requires a reality check...
God IS INVISIBLE..
It is MEN who SEE men.

Men are stubborn to ONLY "Hear"...
You know..."seeing is believing"..
You know.."men saying....ya, ya, so I heard...but give me "EVIDENCE" to "SEE".

The Ten Commandments BEGINS with God.
HE IS...period.

Then...again ABOUT God...to not undermine His PIETY.

Then...APPEARS to be ALL ABOUT "man"".

MAN and WHO?
About men and treatment of men toward men.

IT IS about men toward men.
AND a beginning...of HOW the Lord teaches ABOUT Himself, "according to" HOW men FIRST to learn..."what they can hear.....AND SEE...-----> OTHER MEN.

Those commands...CAN NOT be KEPT, by a man toward a man...."without" Gods power upon the man.

Those commands....CAN NOT be KEPT, without a man "WANTING" to Keep them.

And the FACt IS...not all men WANT to keep them.
And the FACT IS...a man who cheats a man, or lies to a man, or steals from a man, or commits adultry...
The Injuried party...WILL either forgive them....OR BY mans LAW...cause a mans (lawfully) punishment against them...
And the offender will suffer THAT negative consequence.

THe BIG PICTURE beyond how men treat men...IS ABOUT the relationship BETWEEN;
A man...AND....thee Lord God.

Adultery...Do not leave God.
Lie.......Do not Lie to God.
Cheat...Do not seek other gods
Holy Days...Worship only God
Etc.

It is PRACTICE, of behavior between men...
In preparation for THE BIG PICTURE..

The relationship between Man and God.
the SEALING of that Relationship.
The RECEIVING of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The Commitment of a man to Agree to receive the Holy Spirit...

Changes WITHIN the man...
He can NOT LIE to God.
he can NOT Cheat God, and go after other gods.
He can NOT accept other gods, and commit Adultry against God.
He can NOT ever LeAVe God.
Every day is Holy unto the Lord and God worthy of Worship EVERY day.
He can NOT NOT Love the Lord God.
he can NOT NOT believe in thee Lord God.

In SHORT...the Power of the Holy Spirit within a man....fulfills the Commands of God...
"BY" His Grace, "THROUGH His GIft of the HOLY SPIRT (light/power), that His commands ARE accomplished and KEPT, BY HIS Power.

A man WHO has fulfilled the Commands of God, (by having received the HS)...

ARE SEALED unto God. A finite relationship.

Men against men...Forgive men who trespass against you...
AND
RIght the wrong if you trespass against other men....AND Suffer the consequences, ithat other men may "exact" toward you...

God did not relieve us of the consequences men exact against men.

He is there to Comfort us through the consequences/ hardships men exact upon other men.

Remember, Jesus was unjustly treated by other men. He suffered their negative consequences....(so also will there be times that will occur for men IN Christ) ..But a mans consequences upon a man....HAVE no Bearing on a mans SEALED relationship with thee Lord God.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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No. No we do NOT earn our salvation.

How does one Earn a FREE gift.

Our good deeds etc etc are only an expression of our love for Jesus.

Correct.

Men do not earn "free gifts"...
They either ACCEPT the free gift or REJECT the free gift.

Agree...Works are an expression of our love for thee Lord God.

And ... Jesus does not text us or whisper in our ear.....oh thank you, thank you for loving me.....

His method is....favoring us, blessing us,, storing up rewards in Heaven that shows His expression of His love for us.

God Bless,
taken
 
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Taken

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Falling short of the minimum standard? I don't see this anywhere in the Bible.

Why this desire to hold so tightly to the tutor when majority is here?

Actually there is a "minimum standard" so to speak.

It isn't a LAW. Since we do know, Jesus came to Fulfill the Law....Not stand up with a billeted list of laws to dictate to men their failures in obedience TO the law.

Jesus came preaching......
1) Believe In God,
2) Believe in Him,
3) Confess your Belief.
4) Give your body unto thee Lord God
5) Repent for YOUR having disbelieved.
Straight forward....Simple.

Further we find..."IF" a man accomplishes those 5 Things.....Hell has lost that man as an future occupant, and the POWER of God Blesses and Gifts that man....SEVERAL things...that concerns the WHOLE of the man...
BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT.

So also we know, the Son of Man (WITH Power) has a return trip planned.
And men will stand before Him...
(In holiness or in condemnation).

And the "minimum standard"...(so to speak)

IN Scripture...is called "REASONABLE SERVICE"...which has to do with a man WHO has accomplished those 5 things....and the Lord God has accomplished His several things in the man, (that makes the man "acceptable" unto God).

And it is this:

Romans 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

God Bless,
Taken
 

marks

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And how long does that last?

Forever.

Romans 7:16-20
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


The old man sins. The new man does not. That is why we are to put on the new man.

Ephesians 4:24 "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

The new man is righteous and holy, created in God's likeness.

That is why there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

Much love!
Mark
 

marks

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Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The tutor/schoolmaster is still needed for those who sin...they still need to be directed to Christ. Sure, the law cannot cleanse anyone of sin...its sole purpose is to direct people to the Saviour. Yet Christians still continue to live as if there is no law...they clearly are not listening to Christ...why would they listen to the risen Christ if they ignore Moses?

That's a good question, brakelite!

Moses gave the answer.

Deuteronomy 18:17-19
And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.


The Law states that whoever does these things shall live by them. And yet here God says that the time will come that there will be a prophet of whom if you do not listen to him, God will hold you to account.

We recognize this is Jesus, and see here that the Law endorses Jesus over itself.

And . . . the tutor was to lead Israel to Christ. It wasn't even to lead Gentiles to Christ. The Law was not given to lead out of sin. The Law empowers sin. The Law increases sin. The Law makes sin exceedinly sinful. Why is it that you want the Law?

Much love!
Mark
 
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Dave L

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You probably are not born again if God needs to tell you not to steal or murder. But then why does he tell us this? The unregenerate needed the threats and promises of reward that came from keeping the Ten Commandments. But for the born again, they apply more to the thought realm. Do we have a stray thought coming in that would cause us to steal or murder? The Commandments turn the light on it instantly and we can reject it before it becomes sin, while it is only temptation. So while we are not under the Ten Commandments the same way the unregenerate are, they are useful as a spot check on our thoughts and imaginations. But if we walk in the light of the Two Great Commandments, of love for God and others, we fulfill the law and do good for the right reason. Because we love God and people.
 
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marks

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That which is not of faith is sin.

Anything that does not originate from our new life in Christ is therefore sin, whether there is commandment against it or not.

Much love!
Mark
 

Taken

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That which is not of faith is sin.

Anything that does not originate from our new life in Christ is therefore sin, whether there is commandment against it or not.

Much love!
Mark

I have a slightly different understanding.

Have to go cut some trees soon, so won't be posting much this afternoon.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Jay Ross

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I have a slightly different understanding.

Have to go cut some trees soon, so won't be posting much this afternoon.

God Bless,
Taken

Are you bleeding the trees to make rubber erases. :D