Is freewill real or just something we invented it ?

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Jesustruth said:

Originally Posted by 1689dave

Martin Luther overthrew the notion of free will with this simple point.

Paul teaches, Rom. vii. and Gal. v., that there is in the saints, and in the godly, so powerful a warfare between the spirit and the flesh, that they cannot do what they would. From this warfare I argue thus:

If the nature of man be so evil, even in those who are born again of the Spirit, that it does not only not endeavour after good, but is even averse to, and militates against good, how should it endeavour after good in those who are not born again of the Spirit, and who are still in the "old man," and serve under Satan?



Luther, Martin. The Bondage of the Will (p. 162). Neeland Media LLC. Kindle Edition.
When Paul taught about those who can't obey, he was speaking about someone under the law without faith, and he was talking about the person of the flesh who only wants to please the flesh with sin.

Not everyone only wants to do that.

 

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Brightframe replied :

Originally Posted by 1689dave

Martin Luther overthrew the notion of free will with this simple point.

Paul teaches, Rom. vii. and Gal. v., that there is in the saints, and in the godly, so powerful a warfare between the spirit and the flesh, that they cannot do what they would. From this warfare I argue thus:

If the nature of man be so evil, even in those who are born again of the Spirit, that it does not only not endeavour after good, but is even averse to, and militates against good, how should it endeavour after good in those who are not born again of the Spirit, and who are still in the "old man," and serve under Satan?



Luther, Martin. The Bondage of the Will (p. 162). Neeland Media LLC. Kindle Edition.
Yeah I agree with Luther. I read his book bondage of the will many years ago.

 

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Hannibal Flavius:

I dont think I believe in free will because there is no time as Einstein said, time is an illusion.
The past, present and future have already been, if you were on a planet 65 million light years from Earth, you could literally watch the asteroid hit earth, and you would see living dinosaurs before they died.
What will be exists already, besides that, everyone in the bible had to do and say exactly what they said and did BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN, THE FUTURE KNOWN BECAUSE IT EXISTS AND WAS WRITTEN TO HAPPEN AND NO EVENT COULD HAVE FAILED

 

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Jesustruth:

God made us with free will to do good or evil. When Adam sinned sin entered the world, and we became like God knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
God wants us to choose to love Him; He wants us to choose to do right.
There is eternal life with God one day without sin and sickness and death.
We have to choose what we want for ourselves now so that we can have that life with God through Jesus Christ.

 

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Dave:

Quote:


Originally Posted by Jesus'Truth

God made us with free will to do good or evil. When Adam sinned sin entered the world, and we became like God knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

God wants us to choose to love Him; He wants us to choose to do right.
There is eternal life with God one day without sin and sickness and death.
We have to choose what we want for ourselves now so that we can have that life with God through Jesus Christ.

 

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Jesustruth:

Here is Martin Luther's view of free will. Paul teaches, Rom. vii. and Gal. v., that there is in the saints, and in the godly, so powerful a warfare between the spirit and the flesh, that they cannot do what they would. From this warfare I argue thus:
If the nature of man be so evil, even in those who are born again of the Spirit, that it does not only not endeavour after good, but is even averse to, and militates against good, how should it endeavour after good in those who are not born again of the Spirit, and who are still in the "old man," and serve under Satan?
Luther, Martin. The Bondage of the Will (p. 162). Neeland Media LLC. Kindle Edition.

 

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Jesustruth:

Originally Posted by 1689dave

Here is Martin Luther's view of free will. Paul teaches, Rom. vii. and Gal. v., that there is in the saints, and in the godly, so powerful a warfare between the spirit and the flesh, that they cannot do what they would. From this warfare I argue thus:
If the nature of man be so evil, even in those who are born again of the Spirit, that it does not only not endeavour after good, but is even averse to, and militates against good, how should it endeavour after good in those who are not born again of the Spirit, and who are still in the "old man," and serve under Satan?


Luther, Martin. The Bondage of the Will (p. 162). Neeland Media LLC. Kindle Edition.
Luther and Calvin and all sects from them teach wrong about the condition of humans.

We are spirit and flesh and not all only want to please their flesh with sin.

People are taught wrong about many scriptures.

For instance, Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

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Wait going to finish you will see and in the end A secret of freewill will be explained !

 

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Here this another post in the discusion !

Ellis Bell said :

Maybe this will help (I believe the man, L. Ray Smith, who authored this website is deceased)

The Myth of Free-Will Exposed
"Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.
<snip>
Up until the very last day with their Lord, the apostles all believed that they possessed the power of free will, which could enable them to choose their own destiny, and that they could and would have the strength of self determinism and free will to maintain that course. But Jesus told His disciples that they would all forsake Him. In other words, Jesus was foretelling of events that would cause (even "force,' if you will) them to change their wills, against their previously stated wills. They of course, all denied that Jesus knew what He was talking about."
I've had people in my life that would not do me any favors, change their minds and help me with situations. It's really odd to watch, cause it's like, what just happened?

 

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Just to make A recap everyone from the first to remembering the last posts that were done but we have to see what hebrew say when using those words of "free" and choice and know the whole area is also tied to the slaves system Judean mosaic law applies people. Did you know their is A law that saw if A slave from another country comes to Israel he is free under the law of moses and musn't be return to his country to be slave ? He can be free forever

Understand our freedom did exist ! And existed in Heaven when Lucifer rebbeled, truly freewill exist in the spectrum of decision but the concept of the past, present, and future makes us think freewill doesn't exist because everything God's see's and foresaws decided everything for us. Nope people just like their are sciences explaining our existence their is other realms of existence of aliens, spirits and time that our thinking does not know and exist God created it becuase he is above it all but paths that exist and ways that exist in those ways explain that freedom exist probablility exist and Lucifer is one that's he was perfect in every sense we do knot know and yet he reblled and proves freewill myth is not myth and Ray I copy something from him. Still were just the tip of the iceberg in freewill and consciousness and existing explaining that what we percieve in our brains and eyes is not how freewil is exist by God and he gives us choice to do good and evil people don't understand it.


Because they want to control the base of it and with words grab their destiny and say like scientist they cannot really choose because their future was chosen for them and everything is planned ? Not true Moses and Hulda and Elijah changed the future of the world with thier decision can we who are in this choosing of good and evil also change the destiny of this world and do good and not the same mistakes as them ? Yes, we can can Jesus do it ? He did change our destiny all together.



No, people you just beggining to enter the tip of freewill as we speak we have the verses and in greek mean different things and in hebrew mean different things. But how in the universe rules are different and no we are bound becuase their Is more to God he is not showing we know him as the God of before, today and tomorrow are thier more time measurements in the universe ? Yes, Do angels, aliens, and other beings that exist have different counting than we do ? Yes, understand God is beyond destiny and he gives us that to be measure by time like we know it now but there is more ways to count time from angel perspective, alien perspective, and above all from God's perpsective for he is has not limits in time and he has counting system different from us.


Freewill is it based from God's letting people to choose to love him or not ? He let us choose our destiny can change from that ? Dont' go too far people he onlys wants us to choose either to be freed by him from sin thru Jesus and be baptized simple as that and not to choose to do evil simple people. Does freedom exist outside of our science and counting time and counting destiny and God can make it happen ? Yes he can he can do it all for he is God and only God judges God ! We cannot go beyond that but he can create it people. Don't rely on your own efforts in your decision but pray and rely on his and he will unchange your destiny to do your dream of saving your family to be rich man in god's way and be the thing you want he put in your heart to free in freewill in his love he gaves us life to choose and enjoy this magnificent thing called life and live it with all your might and feelings.


Choose God above it all and put him first he will change your ways and find your dream come reality and really be all the things you can be !

 

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People our will has been always united to him before our birth when we are born we think we have independence from him or we started in this existence born a citizen in A counrty and we are not connected to him ?

We are and have always been here the error we think we are seperated from him by independance or by vote or by going to the ballot. Know we are in A greater thing and that is love. Know in how in A realm or in kingdom of love know we were never meant to be born inpendant from him. We were meant in to be with him always perhaps our idealogy of freedom and politics cannot be used in this relationship. Here two promblems that come and clash that our existence is us knowing we exist and conscience gives us the ability to know who we are and what is life and it's purpose but the other clash is we are born/created from God and did not want us to kow good and evil but wanted to live in the garden and knowing becomes sin and we are spearate from him and know freedom is sin ?

No, we have freedom in the garden and God let Adam obey and disobey bu letting A tree there and let him had choice to not of eat of it or did eat of it. He had perfect will Adam to obey God and keep choosing freely and walking freely without asking God where to in the garden yes he did can we have the relationship Adam had with God like Jesus had with God ? Yes.

The first is that we are born into existence know we are being we are born picture this if Human created and A.I. and it could live and feel like us but still would it ask space and says he diecide evrything by itself what you would you ? let it decide already and it's virgin mind be crisp clean and letting ti go it's own way like the wind and goes perfectly align in the universe by itself ? Some would argue it should be free because it would fit life perfectly going it's natural way and not our humans and animal way to destroy and control everything like our civilization has done since greeks and since romans to do. Rememeber we were never meant to be like this with A civilization and army, No.


He sill wanted us to obey him and be in the Garden to be in paradise forever bu came the enemy ( the devil) and our paraidise ruin.
No, God-relation with man isn't like an A.I. been created or A mamal been born to be like deer or leopard and go their natural way and live life in the circle of life. Our relation was never for the animals and us to be in paradise and no animal kill each other. We were created to live and be servants of the most high our purpose was another. He made us to choose and gave us freewill since the beggining to live but those who know what destiny is and what future,past, and present know you live you born and die say you don't have freewill your life is planned already like animals and you live in the box. You can't get out, Here scientist and rational humainze come to conlfict with both clashes and realize that choosing is not real !
No, people you can choose and your decison change everything but you do not have the intelligence to be humble and to wise know, our paths are can change and predetermination and God's soveriegn and out his soveriegn do exist and have their been in destiny what he wrote changed ? Yes, God writes everything we do and writes what your going to do. But god allows probabilities billions to one that things can change and destiny can change people. We have Elijah, Huldah, and Moses who change the future of Israel and show probabilities do exist and do happen. And that's part of outside the box that they chaneg the destiny and what God told them to do with his words and authority.


Know there is born to existence and consciuonsess in this world that we are born and theologist , writtters , and greek thinkers, german thinkers like Nietzche, socrates, aristotles, and Einstein say to leave that of A born baby consciouness is original and shows only good and A way that existence is based on human efforts not true our existence is not base on our efforts. And originality is given by our consciousness and perception but know they are wrong. This is why an error remember in this discussion man cannot know evil if not for good and evil tree it is important that we realize if an A.I. created will not undertand what God established things. So know there is A difference.


1.human created A.I. and it has freedom and born crisp clean

2. God-man realationship we have freedom in the garden and God let Adam obey and disobey but letting A tree there and let him had choice to not of eat of it or did eat of it. He had perfect will Adam to obey God and keep choosing freely and walking freely without asking God where to in the garden yes he did. Know this the importance of freedom we must have the relation Jesus had with God and align our will with his and originaly like he wanted and know you have freedom to do only good and it is how perfect freedom is with him and know it is better than any doubt modern thinkers like Einstien, Max Planck, Aristotles and Socrates would argue about destiny predetermination, future , past and present.


Be in God's path by putting yor will to his and avoid this conflicts.

 

[MatthewG]

It cannot be faked can it? If a person decides for themselves they will take a life for life insurance. Does free will apply?

 

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It cannot be faked can it? If a person decides for themselves they will take a life for life insurance. Does free will apply?

It all depends on your actions have freedom to choose it but still if you were concieve in his thouhgts G-d that you existed and your purpose is something else did you decide it or God did ? You can lie about it but God will know the truth you can buy the insurance and use your decisions. But still your point to make clever joke or your intention is what he wanted and he's plan for your salvation in it ! But still God will know if its fake.

 

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The base of freewill is what G-d wanted man with freewill before the fall man had man freewill ? and it was perfect ? Yes, Becuase it was align with him before all this of politics, sin, and works and faith of slavation were not part of this he wanted us to be with him in the garden and do one thing . Trust in him put our faith can we keep having our faith and keep the relation with Adam like G-d intended even though we are fallen and cannot be pure like he was, Inoccent ? Jesus is that second Adam he had A relationship and did what Adam was supposed to be A son, A servant and love like G-d loves the world. We are not perfect but we do 10% of the work, 50% of the work and 90 of the work % of faith and he does the rest in mysterious ways. Remember we are imperfect of the fall.

 

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Know that the base of freewill the secret is what he wants before the fall and can we understand the concept of freewill ? He gave man choice to eat the tree of good and evil ? Yes, he did. So know there is freewill concept in what is slavery in the law of mosaic law and how you are liberated, and what is concept of how democracy of goverment of law say and gives freewill to choose A president or leader, the freewill of philosophy greeks talk, the freewill of from sin that Jesus liberates you and what Romans 8:8-9 NLT this verses says from satan. Know that to understand the freewill God gave Adam in the Eden is still the base of all this and we must do what Jesus did. Freewill means different in each culture because the words don't mean the same know the definition in hebrew is another in form of freedom of choice but inside the law and what greeks say about freewill is not the same and it is what influence

 

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Our modern system in law and what we call liberalism but it is not what God is talking about and what the law says in the mosaic way and how jesus freed us from sin. Thru the mosaic law using the new testament by fullfiling it. Know that is the crucial and essential infromation we talk about and use verses to reveal the 2 commandments help us in the that road. And all this thread reveals to us that infromation. Know there is freewill in the flesh and in the spirit but loves is hte base of it. And destiny, predestination, probabilites of A billion to one, actions and owrks by faith decide our future, and God soveriegn over it and not God soveriegn in the future exist. It all exist and God's plan is what is goes in the end.

Know this why we must understand hebrew lexicon emaning and greek one's too because God's commandmnets are used to be exact and what he ordered in he way and issued was meant for kings, prophets, and his people and we must study thoroughly more and find they meaning to it and discover he meant freewil in one way and freewill for his people thrue Jesus and thru the law another way.

 

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freewill existed before adam and eve and the devil had it he chosed to rebelled. You saw it exist does the plan of G-d involves love and choosing to be free. Choose to put you will in G-d's will becuase it cause you conflict like everyone that it's impossible don't be in the box that is fate and destiny and what you decide is cannot be without god already planning it ?
The plan of God of giving thanks always is different of how he put the laws of physics and laws of probabilities in the world don't go to conlfict everything is possible. Know that mistake was made with moses and huldah and eliajh shows that fate can be changed. But still to pray and pray and doing the impossible to change your fate your destiny of being shoemaker or being into a lawyer is possible if you want. G-d has moved the universe and the fate of our humanity in wars with assyrians when he sent an angel, he makes miracles everyday and moves time and universe. ungratefulness is what all say because they have cobnflict say it's impossible God already plan for you everything but he's plan of god about been thankful even when bad things and been faithful and obeying him in good and bad times isn't about the future beenalready planned and impossible to avoid his soveriegn and he chosed the path already !

1. what he planned premptively in how the universe wrks and moves the sun and you have night and day and you age and you were bron in A planet God wrote that. physics work and you do everyday on works and buy groceries and food he establish laws.

2.probablitlies that everything changes and destiny moves constantly even when you don't know and G-d gives you every day to change you lifespan choose a better path by eating vegetables and changing your course of life not making the bad decison going to war and decided to go have job in kentucky and you change routes. everyday people the universe makes cracks in its fabric of how the destiny and chances are made by faith by believing by praying know God hears ya and God moves it all. Everything is possible God has used jews and did incredible things like making kings out of ordinary people makins miracles and making man into prophets and moving the universe for them. God does more thinsg we don't know he does for us becuase he loves us.

3.Don't be like the scientists who say everything is already planned he is a dictator god because he already decided everything for us and didn't let us choose. know if you decided things out of nowhere and you popped out of the planet and God ceases to exist you became God you wouldn't know what was the last things God did, then you will decide everything and you will make so many errors because you can't do what God does, and realese finally he was right and he put things all for A reason. Those scientist agnostic thinks if they were God decided everything realized how hard God life is deciding everything and he gave you all but you made the bad decisions in life. You had all the freedom you woulnd't know what to do with it and just make mistakes and if you were free to do everything and be A god you wouldn't find true love you woulnd't do things you just be the same individual looking for things and think having all the freedom and you decided everything you woulnd't find that special thing God has for youa t the end in heaven. You will be lost and still be unperfect those scientist just blame and if they had everything they will just mess up and realize didn't go their way either and mess up.

 

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