Is Hell worse for Some?
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Parable...a STORY to Teach a Truth....
So, the WORDS in the STORY do not need to be TRUE, as long as the POINT is TRUE.
Do you agree or not? That is a one word yes or no answer and dose not require a plug to go read your blog.
Glory to God,
Taken
Harvest 1874
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How did you ever arrive at this conclusion?
I think you need to do a little more study on the subject of parables and how they are presented.
Phoneman777
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We don't deny Godly testimony by saying the wicked are annihilated because a "soul" only exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 KJV). When God gathers His Spirit back from a creature, this union is broken and the Soul ceases to exist.
Besides, Romans 2:5-6 says eternal life is granted only to those who "seek for immortality" - if we're already immortal for what reason are we to seek immortality?
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Phoneman777
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JBF, you're operating under an assumption that the "Soul" and the "Spirit" are one in the same thing, but are not.
Hebrews 4:12 says the "Spirit" can be divided from the "Soul" as assuredly as can the marrow from the joint. A knee joint is comprised of a tibia bone (in which is the marrow) which end meets a femur bone end and are fixed together but free to move on an axis. If you take away a "marrow" filled tibia or femur from the knee joint, does the knee joint continue to exist or does it cease to exist? So then, when the Spirit is gathered back to "the God Who gave it" the Soul no longer exists. All that is left is a dead Body which decays back into dust.
Also, Jesus Spirit went up to the Father's hands, but Peter says clearly that Jesus' Soul was down - which proves the two are not the same. His Soul was "down" meaning it was a "dead Soul" or non-existent Soul, because, again, a Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life according to Genesis 2:7 KJV.
Also, the "Spirit shall return to God Who gave it" which means exactly as It was when it left the hand of God to quicken the nostrils of the target inanimate creature. It does not return to God looking like us, sounding like us, or having anything to do with us...it returns just as it was before we began to exist. This same Spirit quickens all living creatures be they saints, sinners, or creatures in the animal kingdom, and at death, all of these give up the Spirit to "return to the God Who gave it."
@charity, I am not certain how you can be in agreement with @Harvest 1874, in light of the following passages:
Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
These passages taken together show that the nature of the punishment is that it is conscious torment; and that the duration of it is that it is everlasting.
Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
These passages taken together show that the nature of the punishment is that it is conscious torment; and that the duration of it is that it is everlasting.
If soul and spirit are not the same thing, what bearing does it have on the doctrine about everlasting punishment?
A dead soul is not necessarily nonexistent. I have given the definition for death, that it means separation.
Mat 16:26, For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mar 8:36, For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
You would only lose your soul according to this scripture if you somehow gained the whole world. Many people do this in a sense; they become friends of the world and therefore they are enemies of the Lord. In gaining the world they forfeit their soul. But if you forsake the world and follow the Lord, you will preserve your soul.
Therefore the soul is not forfeited through physical death; rather it is forfeited by your relation to the world.
I have noticed you do that. Say you can answer and then don't.
Glory to God,
Taken
Do you believe Parables are TRUE stories?
Do you believe Parables Are NOT True stories?
See if you can manage a YES or NO answer.
Glory to God,
Taken
Phoneman777
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So much bearing that it puts a huge distinction between "everlasting punishment" and "everlasting punishing".
The fact that the Soul and the Spirit are two separate, distinct things establishes that the "Spirit" is purely God, unaltered by Its interaction with creatures when It is sent forth to animate them, and returns exactly as It was at the moment It is gathered back to God - perfect, eternal, holy, etc.
The "Soul", however, is NOT immortal and subject to death ("...the soul that sinneth, it shall die," "...rather fear Him which is able to destroy both the body and soul in hell"). The Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the body and breath of life (Genesis 2:7 KJV) and passes out of existence when this union is broken, therefore there is no such thing as "eternal punishing", but "eternal punishment" which is death, the Second Death which is eternal death...a death from which there will be no resurrection.
The definition of death is separation; in this case, spiritual death is separation of the soul from the Lord Jesus Christ, even God, for all of eternity.
It should be clear that, while many have fought against the truth of the matter, and sought to find any interpretation other than the one that is correct, that to not worship Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is to worship the beast and his image by default.
Therefore what is written in Revelation 14:10-11 defines the second death for us...they rest not day and night and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and their environment is also fire and brimstone.
Being simply made unconscious is not punishment, it is mercy, compared to the reality of what the Lord calls eternal punishment in the holy scriptures.
I have also shown above with scripture (in post #126: Is Hell worse for Some?) that the nature of the everlasting punishment is that it is conscious torment. i.e. the furnace of fire.
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Phoneman777
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Actually, the definition of death is "cessation of life" , the "absence of life". No where in the Bible is death limited to "separation" thought that is accurate, because if one is blotted out of existence, is he not "separated" from God? The idea that "separation" must include the continued existence of that which has been separated is subjective reasoning - just as a skin cell may separate from the body and completely disintegrate into nature.
"forever and ever" doesn't mean the wicked smolder throughout eternity - which is impossible. How can that happen when a person's body has a finite amount of combustible material? "forever and ever" is "aionios" which means "duration: either undefined BUT NOT ENDLESS or undefined because endless" - so the wicked smolder until the end of their duration. This can also refer not to "time of smoldering" but to "distance of rise of smoke" which continues to rise out of sight such as what we see today when driving through Texas oil well region.
Revelation in no way supports the idea of eternal torment - it clearly establishes "annihilation". How could there be "no more sin, death, suffering, crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away" when the wicked, being conscious that God is the cause of the unspeakable pain of their never ending burning torment, will look up and curse God as they cry out in pain?
The BODY is one thing.
The BODY is a Formed Vessel (From Dust)
It's LIFE BLOOD.
The VEINS and ARTERIES are the VESSELS.
In the VEINS and ARTERIES is the BLOOD.
The BODY is MORTAL, which means IT is a Physical thing, and WILL Physically DIE.
It's Flesh, It's Organs, It' Life (BLOOD) will die.
The SOUL is one thing.
It's LIFE is Gods BREATH.
ALL SOULS (IN or OUT of the Body) are made by GOD.
ALL SOULS BELONG TO GOD.
THE LIFE IN THE SOUL BELONGS TO GOD.
A SOUL IS GIVEN A MAN (BODY).
And THEN the BODY becomes LIVING.
A BODY that IS DYING,
The SOUL and THE LIFE IN THE SOUL...
LEAVE THE DYING BODY.
The BODY (hopefully) is BURIED in the ground.
There the BODY ROTS, and RETURNS to DUST, from whence it CAME.
A SOUL, and GODS LIFE, does not come from DUST.
A SOUL, and GODS LIFE, is NOT and does not BECOME MORTAL. It is not a physical thing that LIVING MORTAL men can SEE.
A SOUL, IN A MORTAL MAN, BECOMES "SUBJECT TO" THE SINS, a MORTAL MAN Commits.
A Natural born MANS BODY of FLESH is what Commits SIN...
Jesus OFFERED: Forgiveness of SIN to BELIEVING MEN...
BY OFFERING HIS PURE BLOOD as PAYMENT for the mans SIN.
BECAUSE the SOUL in a man ALSO became corrupt by BEING IN the mans SINFUL FLESH BODY....
Jesus also OFFERED: Forgiveness of the Soul, AND Restoration of the Soul, (to make the SOUL UNCORRUPT, as it was WHEN God Gave the man a SOUL, with Gods LIFE in the SOUL.)
This SAVES the SOUL, Unto God, And God shall TAKE BACK the SOUL to Heaven, that IS SAVED unto Him. (God has a band of Angels that Escorts SAVED SOULS back up to Heaven. Those SOULS still have Gods LIFE IN THEM, and they PRAISE and WORSHIP God, IN HEAVEN.
Every man who has ever been naturally born Has had a BODY with Blood.
And
Has was GIVEN a SOUL with Gods Breath in it.
BUT NOT EVERY MAN BELIEVES
AND
NOT EVERY MAN ASKS FOR FORGIVENESS.
THOSE men WHO ACCEPT JESUS' OFFERING......RECEIVE Something Else, that other men DO NOT Receive.
Every Natural Born man HAS "A" TRUTH.
It is the mans Natural "TRUTH".
The mans TRUTH ALSO IS IN A VESSEL.
The VESSEL the mans TRUTH IS IN;
IS the mans HEART.
And the mans TRUTH is called "his natural spirit".
It is from a MANS (natural spirit) /TRUTH...a natural man Confesses BELIEF....AND....Asks FOR Forgiveness....AND....ACCEPTS the Lords OFFERING.
Once A MAN with HIS spirit/truth, Accepts Jesus' OFFERING...
The MANS "OLD Natural; TRUTH in his Natural spirit, in his natural heart.....IS CUT OFF.
BY the Spirit of God;
The mans Heart IS Spiritually Circumcised.
The mans OLD Truth Becomes Cut off.
Once the OLD Heart is Circumcised.
And the mans OLD Truth Cut OFF...
Christ's SPIRIT Enters the Man...
Christ IS Gods SEED.
Christ IS Gods Spirit of Truth.
Christ IS the POWER of God.
The man is Given A New HEART.
The man is Given The SEED of God.
The SEED of God BIRTHS the man A NEW TRUTH.
The NEW TRUTH, IS GODS SPIRITUAL TRUTH.
The SEED of God, the TRUTH of God, the POWER of God Dwells IN the mans NEW Heart, the mans NEW spirit.
The Natural man; BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT, is NOW MADE a Wholly WHOLE Spiritual man.
The MYSTERY is The Lord CAN ACCOMPLISH THIS WITHOUT, a MORTAL BODY OF A MAN, Physically DYING.
Such a man Has EXPERIENCED a "spiritual Death", being Crucified with Christ.
WHEN Christ COMES to RESURRECT His Church....(WHICH IS A man who has been MADE WHOLLY WHOLE IN Christ)
Every Physical Living Body IN Christ, and Every Physical Dead Body IN Christ...
SHALL RISE UP TO IN "IN A Glorified" BODY and Meet the Lord IN the Air and SEE HIM AS HIS IS.
(Ie Rapture, which pertains to Christ's Church, WHICH shall take PLACE BEFORE the Great Tribulation BEGINS)
The men WHO did not Accept the Lord Jesus' OFFERING...SHALL Experience the Beginning of the Great Tribulation...
During the Great Tribulation...
MEN, who believe in God, BUT NOT Christ Jesus....WILL Be coming into Belief.
(They will become KILLED, and their bodies rot, and their SAVED souls and Born Again Spirits Rise UP to Heaven.)
(Caveat...one small group, will come into belief, but not soul saved, and not spirit quickened (born again) and not Killed...they are the Remnant of MORTALS, that will repopulate the earth DURING the 1,000 year reign)
MEN, who believe in neither God, or Christ, MAY or MAY not choose to Believe....
They shall continue to suffer the Increase of the Great Tribulation.
MEN, who continue to NOT believe WILL Eventually BE KILLED.
Men, also, WHO pledge their allegience and Accept the Beasts (World Leader) Mark, shall eventually Be KILLED.
Living SOULS of men that are NOT SAVED, Depart their dying Bodies and are SENT TO HELL.
Gods Breath Remains in those Souls, thus those souls Continue Living. (Without their bodies that are dead and rotting on the earth, being eaten by birds.)
Those Living souls REMAIN IN HELL...
Separated FROM God.
Separated From the Earths Beauty, Gods Comforts, Gods Blessing,
They shall Experience Continous Extreme Heat, and Darkness, and the Putrid Smell of Sulfur, and the Noise of Weeping, Crying of Despair and Agony....(Hells Torments) for The next 1,000 years....
Until the DAY of Judgement...
WHEN their Bodies shall be Resurrected, their living souls, imparted into their Bodies.
THEN they SHALL SEE the Son of Man, Coming down From the Clouds....
And ... SHALL wail ... (which is a cry of Anger)....And....Although Angry, they SHALL BELIEVE, and Bow and Worship Him.
And THEIR Belief, Bow, Worships to the Lord Jesus....FULFILLS the Lord Gods PROPHECY in ISAIAH. That EVERY man shall believe and Every Knee shall Bend and Bow unto Him.
THEN, their JUDGEMENT.
The JUDGEMENT is from the EVIDENTURY FACTS in Gods Books.
When the BOOK of LIFE is OPENED...oops...THEIR Name DOES NOT APPEAR...It was Blotted OUT, WHEN while ALIVE in their own Flesh (BLOOD) Life, THEY rejected God, and then DIED in their own FLESH BODY.... Never having Believed IN God or Christ.
The Sentence after Judgement for having Mortally Died IN DISBELIEF, is Destruction of the Body AND SOUL.
Gods LIFE (His Breath), IN the SOUL, Returns to God...now there is NO LIFE in the Body OR Soul....and The BODY and SOUL Become Destroyed. Forever they shall be separated from God.
And Destroyed is a relative term.
Every thing ever created in the Beginning, DOES NOT Disapper. Destroyed things, do not disappear. The Earth was destroyed by Water. Things created do NOT disappear....However they do appear in other FORMS. A burned body does not disapper, it becomes the FORM of ASH.
And they NEVER having Received a NEW spirit....thus Can not Live on forever spiritually.
Spirits never die. Created spirits that Became Evil, shall be in a buring fire, but never die.
The EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT...
IS...The Everlasting Separation from God....
Gods Heaven, Gods Earth's Surface, Gods Beauty, Pleasents smells, etc.
Glory to God,
Taken
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Agree, the soul and spirit are not the same thing....nor is the body.
Glory to God
Taken
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
Likewise the Apostle states " So also is THE resurrection (the Chief or First resurrection) of THE dead (in Christ, the elect). The body (the soul, the being) is sown, in corruption (a fleshly, animal body), it is raised in incorruption (In immortality)." 1 Cor 15:42
"It" is the soul that is restored or resuscitated.
What was it that died?
The Scripture reply is "The soul that sins, it shall die." (Ezek 18:4, 20) therefore it is the soul that is raised.
Why would the soul need to be raised (to life) if it were immortal?
If it were immortal it would have been "death proof" in the first place and could never die, and thus would have no need of a resurrection.
As the Lord states, "Come let us reason together", let us apply some logic or good old plain common sense.
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Matthew 13:-
(41) The Son of man shall send forth His angels,
and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;
(42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:
there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. ... ...
(49) So shall it be at the end of the world:
the angels shall come forth,
and sever the wicked from among the just,
(50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire:
there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 25:-
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal.
*Hello @justbyfaith,
* The parable of the drag net in chapter 13, is parallel with the gathering of the living nations to the land of Israel, - ‘When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: and before Him shall be gathered ALL NATIONS: and He shall separate them’ (Matthew 25:31,32; Joel 3:1-2; Zechariah 14:1-2; Zephaniah 3:8), - at the end of the age.
* This is not dealing with the dead who are raised to judgment, but of nations whose relation with the kingdom must be decided. Israel will have become a 'burdensome stone to the nations,' And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.'
* Matthew 25 shows that the nations who have well treated the ‘brethren’ of the King shall enter into the kingdom, while the nations who have ill-treated the Jew are an offence, and are gathered out of that kingdom.
* So, at the end of the age there will be two siftings and two gatherings in connection with the kingdom. First from Israel itself (as indicated in the parable of the ‘Tares’) He shall thoroughly purge His floor - hypocrites and sons of the wicked one, those who say they are Jews and are not, but who are of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 3:9) - and then from the nations round about as is seen in the quotations from the Prophets and Matthew 25.
* This is the time of judgment, at the time of the end. Yes, the punishment is everlasting (aionios - age long), perpetual. The fires of Gehenna are burning constantly, and the 'slain' with be cast into those fires, for absolute destruction.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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