Is it wrong for a gentile to be Torah observant?

[Brandywine val mes ldr]

Based upon 1 Corinthians 7:17-20, it appears that some believers in Jesus the Messiah are suppose to be Torah observant and others are not to be Torah observant. According to verse 17, God chooses the status that each believer should maintain. Jesus himself claimed to be Torah observant, (See Matthew 5:17-19), so those who are Torah observant are following in his foot steps.

 

[bbyrd009]

Based upon 1 Corinthians 7:17-20, it appears that some believers in Jesus the Messiah are suppose to be Torah observant and others are not to be Torah observant. According to verse 17, God chooses the status that each believer should maintain. Jesus himself claimed to be Torah observant, (See Matthew 5:17-19), so those who are Torah observant are following in his foot steps.

so then why ask if it is wrong for a gentile to be Torah observant?
and i guess you might give your def of "Torah" and "Torah observant," both, as these are both fairly amorphous terms, apparently.

hmm, who even knew the def of "Torah" is disputed? I know the authors of Torah developed the Naive dialectic to a fine art, to the point we prolly have no one qualified to even Read them now, and i say "know" as in "know of" even there. Still though, huh? Torah means diff things even to diff Jews, i guess, wow.

 

[Brandywine val mes ldr]

Two reasons: I want people to think about this subject and I wish to meet likeminded people.

 

[Helen]

Short answer....."Is it wrong for a gentile to be torah observant." YES!

 

[Enoch111]

Is it wrong for a gentile to be Torah observant?

VERY DEFINITELY. Indeed today it is not for either saved Jews or Gentiles.

1. The Torah was not given to the Gentiles but to Israel, and only until "the time of reformation" (the New Covenant).

2. The Jews failed to obey the Torah and the Old Covenant and paid a high price.

4. Gentiles were given four commandments out of the Torah (as shown in Acts 15).

5. Christ was the only one who obeyed the Torah perfectly and fulfilled it perfectly.

6. WE ARE UNDER THE NEW COVENANT AND THAT SHOULD SUFFICE.

7. Christians OPPOSE God when they place themselves under the Old Covenant now.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Based upon 1 Corinthians 7:17-20, it appears that some believers in Jesus the Messiah are suppose to be Torah observant and others are not to be Torah observant. According to verse 17, God chooses the status that each believer should maintain. Jesus himself claimed to be Torah observant, (See Matthew 5:17-19), so those who are Torah observant are following in his foot steps.

It appears from the context in 1 Cor 7, those in Corinth were giving special consideration to one's social status (marital status, occupation, etc) that one status was better than another, therefore some were trying to change their status. Paul's point is no matter what your social status was before you became a Christian does not matter (as long as it does not violate the Bible) you can still serve God acceptably. Verse 18, if you were a Jew before becoming a Christian, don't hide it If a Gentile before becoming a Christian, don't hide it. Verse 19 whether you were circumcised or not before you became a Christian does not matter. All that matters is keeping the commands of God which means to keep all God has said in His word.
If one keeps what God has said in His word, then one sees God's word says that when Christ died on the cross, He took the OT out of the way, Colossians 2:14, and by taking the OT out of the way making it inactive, ineffective He took down the wall of partition that separated Jew and Gentile Ephesians 2:14-16 where Jew and Gentile are now one in Christ as Christians. Paul's point in Romans 7:1-4 is a Christian (Jew or Gentile) is 'married' to Christ, to Christ's NT. So if the Christian also tries to keep Moses' OT law, then that Christian is committing spiritual adultery against Christ in keeping two laws at the same time as an adulteress woman married to two husbands at the same time.

In Matt 5 the OT law was still on effect. The OT law would be replaced by the NT after Christ died, Hebrews 9:16-17; Hebrews 10:9

 

[Hidden In Him]

Based upon 1 Corinthians 7:17-20, it appears that some believers in Jesus the Messiah are suppose to be Torah observant and others are not to be Torah observant. According to verse 17, God chooses the status that each believer should maintain. Jesus himself claimed to be Torah observant, (See Matthew 5:17-19), so those who are Torah observant are following in his foot steps.

Welcome to ChristianityBoard. Interesting question, and worth looking into.

To start off with, Is it wrong? No, so long as one is not trusting in that for salvation. Now, as Byrd may have been alluding to, what limits are you placing on how much of the Torah one observes? If you are talking about should a Gentile Christian (or even a Jewish Christian for that matter) sacrifice lambs and goats, No. These were observances when the temple in Jerusalem was still standing. There is indication these observances will return during the Millenial Kingdom, but there will again be a temple standing in Jerusalem, and a priesthood appointed through whom to do so (Isaiah 56:6-8; Zechariah 14:16; Jeremiah 33:15-18; Ezekiel 43:18-46:24).

Now if you are talking about observing Feasts, Sabbaths, and New Moons, again, it's not "wrong," so long as you are not trusting in doing so for salvation. The New Testament Gentiles were doing so (1 Corinthians 5:7-8; Colossians 2:16-17), but not for salvation's sake. Rather, they were doing so only because these observances pointed prophetically to things now being fulfilled through Christ and the church.

If you are talking about observing Jewish dietary and cleanliness laws, again, the only reason I can think of to do so would be if you wanted to be ever mindful of how these customs prophesied of things Christians are now supposed to be fulfilling spiritually. But that seems like quite a bit of work. I entertained the idea of keeping Sabbaths for a time, but even that proved to be cumbersome to me spiritually, so I set it aside as not beneficial enough to my walk to observe them consistently (though if I again pursue, it I may return to attempting such things again).

So tell me, why are you thinking to observe the Torah? What is your motivation for doing so?

 

[Enoch111]

To start off with, Is it wrong? No, so long as one is not trusting in that for salvation.

Yes, it is wrong, and you should know better than to say it is not.

You seem to be forgetting that what God sets aside may not be resurrected by Christians. It is God who says that the New Covenant is far better than the Old -- in fact SUPREMELY BETTER than the Old Covenant. The entire epistle to the Hebrews says that you are mistaken.

Anyone who wishes to be Torah observant is duty bound to honor all the OT sacrifices, since it is all or nothing. And since there is no earthly tabernacle or temple, neither is there a Levitical priesthood, no one can be properly Torah Observant.

So it would be just like the UNBELIEVING JEWS who exist today, who think they are honoring God while they are dishonoring Christ.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes, it is wrong, and you should know better than to say it is not.

You seem to be forgetting that what God sets aside may not be resurrected by Christians. It is God who says that the New Covenant is far better than the Old -- in fact SUPREMELY BETTER than the Old Covenant. The entire epistle to the Hebrews says that you are mistaken.

Anyone who wishes to be Torah observant is duty bound to honor all the OT sacrifices, since it is all or nothing. And since there is no earthly tabernacle or temple, neither is there a Levitical priesthood, no one can be properly Torah Observant.

So it would be just like the UNBELIEVING JEWS who exist today, who think they are honoring God while they are dishonoring Christ.

Go back and actually read my post this time, LoL. Your post sounds like you were responding to something else entirely.

 

[Deborah_]

Jewish Christians may continue to observe the Torah (and many do) so long as they are not trusting in it for salvation.

Jesus obeyed it because He was a circumcised Jew. But His perfect obedience releases us from that obligation.

So what point is there in a Gentile doing so? It was not given to us, it is not binding on us, it's certainly not necessary for us! (which is fortunate because, as Enoch has pointed out, it isn't actually possible to observe the whole Torah today)

Of course, we can still study the Torah and profit from it, because it contains a lot of basic principles that are still valid.

 

[Enoch111]

Jewish Christians may continue to observe the Torah (and many do) so long as they are not trusting in it for salvation.

Where does the New Testament say that Jewish (Hebrew) Christians may continue to observe the Torah?

When the temple was destroyed in AD 70 that was the end of Torah observance. But even before that, the day Christ died on the cross and the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, that was the end of true Torah observance. God sent a clear message to Israel -- the temple is finished, the Levitical priesthood is finished, the temple sacrifices are finished, the feasts, festivals, holy days, new moons, and sabbaths are ALL FINISHED. The Law of Moses is finished. The shed blood of Christ has brought in the New Covenant, therefore under no circumstances may you return to the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

So on what grounds can any Christian (let alone unbelieving Jews) claim that believing Jews may be Torah observant? That would be telling God that they will defy Him and Christ. And it would also be a fake Torah observance, and God hates hypocrisy.

The Torah requires the physical circumcision of Jews, and if Gentiles were to be Torah observant, they would have to follow this practices (or be exposed as playing games). But what did Paul say about this matter?
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2:29).

Under the New Covenant, circumcision is spiritual -- the death of "the flesh" (the old nature). Therefore God has set aside the Old Covenant altogether. Any Jew who is converted must become A HEBREW CHRISTIAN, and that means he must put himself under the New Covenant.

Not only that, but under the New Covenant, God has abolished all distinctions between Jew and Gentile within the Body of Christ. So if a Jew continued to be PARTIALLY under the Old Covenant, he would be VIOLATING the New Covenant by maintaining the distinction between Jew and Gentile.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Where does the New Testament say that Jewish (Hebrew) Christians may continue to observe the Torah?

When the temple was destroyed in AD 70 that was the end of Torah observance. But even before that, the day Christ died on the cross and the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom, that was the end of true Torah observance. God sent a clear message to Israel -- the temple is finished, the Levitical priesthood is finished, the temple sacrifices are finished, the feasts, festivals, holy days, new moons, and sabbaths are ALL FINISHED. The Law of Moses is finished. The shed blood of Christ has brought in the New Covenant, therefore under no circumstances may you return to the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

So on what grounds can any Christian (let alone unbelieving Jews) claim that believing Jews may be Torah observant? That would be telling God that they will defy Him and Christ. And it would also be a fake Torah observance, and God hates hypocrisy.

The Torah requires the physical circumcision of Jews, and if Gentiles were to be Torah observant, they would have to follow this practices (or be exposed as playing games). But what did Paul say about this matter?
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Romans 2:29).

Under the New Covenant, circumcision is spiritual -- the death of "the flesh" (the old nature). Therefore God has set aside the Old Covenant altogether. Any Jew who is converted must become A HEBREW CHRISTIAN, and that means he must put himself under the New Covenant.

Not only that, but under the New Covenant, God has abolished all distinctions between Jew and Gentile within the Body of Christ. So if a Jew continued to be PARTIALLY under the Old Covenant, he would be VIOLATING the New Covenant by maintaining the distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Enoch, if you are going to go after Deborah without answering my questions, how about if you discuss it with me instead of attacking what wasn't even my position and then just moving on with life.

1. Where in Post #7 did I say I proposed "resurrecting the Old Covenant"?
2. Where in that post did I say those who might observe Torah in their own free will would do so in order to "honor God"?

Don't just post people and then ignore their posts and go off on somebody else with the exact same thing. H. Richard pulls that junk all the time, and it shouldn't be tolerated.

 

[Enoch111]

Don't just post people and then ignore their posts and go off on somebody else with the exact same thing.

I am not ignoring what you said, which is in essence that it is not wrong for a Christian to be PARTIALLY Torah observant (with various examples).

But God will have none of that. The whole Law of Moses is of one piece. You can either observe all of it or none of it. And since the New Covenant has clearly replaced the Old, both you and Deborah are wrong in suggesting that a Christian can be Torah observant.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am not ignoring what you said, which is in essence that it is not wrong for a Christian to be PARTIALLY Torah observant (with various examples).

But God will have none of that. The whole Law of Moses is of one piece. You can either observe all of it or none of it. And since the New Covenant has clearly replaced the Old, both you and Deborah are wrong in suggesting that a Christian can be Torah observant.

Paul was talking there about the observance of Torah where salvation is concerned. That is a different matter entirely. If anyone who observed even the least bit of Torah was in sin and needed to keep the whole law, what was Paul doing observing ritual purification in Acts 21:26?

 

[Enoch111]

Paul was talking there about the observance of Torah where salvation is concerned. That is a different matter entirely. If anyone who observed even the least bit of Torah was in sin and needed to keep the whole law, what was Paul doing observing ritual purification in Acts 21:26?

(1) The temple was still standing at that time, and (2) believing Jews were in a period of transition at that time.

Paul did not wish to offend either believing or unbelieving Jews since his goal was to win them to Christ (and also wean them away from Moses eventually). But the epistles -- and particularly that to the Hebrews -- lays out everything with clarity. After the temple was destroyed there could no longer be any genuine Torah observance, since temple worship and sacrifices were an integral (if not primary) part of Torah observance.

 

[Hidden In Him]

(1) The temple was still standing at that time, and (2) believing Jews were in a period of transition at that time.

Paul did not wish to offend either believing or unbelieving Jews since his goal was to win them to Christ (and also wean them away from Moses eventually). But the epistles -- and particularly that to the Hebrews -- lays out everything with clarity. After the temple was destroyed there could no longer be any genuine Torah observance, since temple worship and sacrifices were an integral (if not primary) part of Torah observance.

After the temple was destroyed? The temple was destroyed 15 years after when he wrote most of his epistles. You're saying he wrote his epistles as prophecy to be only applicable to Jewish and Gentile Christians in another 10-15 years?

 

[friend of]

I'm reading through the 613 of the Mitzvot right now and i'm willing to say that most of these are covered when Jesus talks about
golden rule>10 commandments >

The 613 Commandments (Mitzvot)

@Enoch111 my post is kinda a response to you

 

[Willie T]

Not a thing wrong with "observing" it, just don't trust in it to save you.

 

[shnarkle]

Based upon 1 Corinthians 7:17-20, it appears that some believers in Jesus the Messiah are suppose to be Torah observant and others are not to be Torah observant. According to verse 17, God chooses the status that each believer should maintain. Jesus himself claimed to be Torah observant, (See Matthew 5:17-19), so those who are Torah observant are following in his foot steps.

It isn't so much about being Torah observant, but why one is observant. The great debate with Christ and Paul was over justification and righteousness. Righteousness was imputed to God's chosen people by God just like it was to Abraham. God explicitly points this out when he says that their obedience will count to them as righteousness. This was abrogated in Galatians, but this doesn't mean that one is no longer Torah observant. Paul is simply pointing out that one either keeps Torah because they should (e.g. "the old covenant"), or they keep it because they've been regenerated (e.g. "the new covenant") to keep God's commandments.

When one is a new creature in Christ, it is because of this that they THEN follow the commandments. Prior to that happening, one must endeavor to keep them as best they can according to their own will and effort. They've made a decision to do their best to love God, but when they fail, and we have the entire Old Testament scriptures as a witness to the fact that this is inevitable; they can rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins.

Those who are under the new covenant, no longer rely upon Christ's sacrifice because now they "walk after the Spirit" and no longer "fulfill the lust of the flesh". They are a new creation created to produce the fruit of Christ's righteousness.

To assume one is under the new covenant and continue to sin is to conflate the conditions of the two covenants. The former was kept by "will and effort", e.g. "works" while the latter is kept "by faith and that NOT of yourselves" It isn't your faith, but Christ's faith manifested in, with, and through the new creation.