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Is Jesus God?

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Groundzero, Aug 7, 2011.

Is Jesus God?

  1. Yes

    90.5%
  2. No

    9.5%
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  1. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Is there anyone here that would like to know why I say that 1 Timothy 6:15-16 is not saying that Jesus is God?
     
  2. biggandyy

    biggandyy I am here to help...

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    I found it amusing that the thread started just like the Jesus Seminar did, taking a vote on if Jesus is God...

    Jesus doesn't need our votes to validate His Deity. Nor does He require our intellectual ascent (or even faith for that matter) to establish His divinity.

    Even when there was nothing, Jesus was still God.
     
  3. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    That is a nice emotional conviction but don't you care whether or not it is really true?

    1 Timothy 6:15-16 is not at all saying what you think because you do not see what it is comparing Jesus to.

    Jesus is the lone one among those that Jesus is being compared to who has immortality and they can have no power without him so he is the only true potentate of them.

    God does not dwell in unapproachable light; God is that unapproachable light.

    Jesus dwells in the light that is his Father and as his Fathers image Jesus perfectly shines that light from his Father just as we ought to do and will when we become image to image like Jesus. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

    Jesus is being compared by Paul to that line of earthly kings from David. And Jesus is the king of kings and lord of lords in relation to them.

    Jesus is similarly to those that will rule as kings with him as one body in him.

    And that Jesus is divine does not mean he has to be God. (2 Peter 1:3-4)
     
  4. biggandyy

    biggandyy I am here to help...

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    After reading your posts it's abundantly clear you aren't interested in discussion but trying to convert baby Christians over to your heresy. I'll politely decline your attempt to drag me into your efforts. And that was my quota of "polite" for the day.
     
  5. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    The passages that we feel most directly state our belief are as primary colors.

    We blend them to all other passages we read which relate to what we believe. If we are color blind to one of those primary colors and thinking it is one color when it is in fact another it throws us into confusion.

    No one is forcing you to even reply to me at all. :rolleyes:

    What you do is your right to decide for yourself.
     
  6. biggandyy

    biggandyy I am here to help...

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    So only you are guardian and champion of what is real in Scripture and when someone disagrees with your cause it is not your individual interpretation but the millions of people who disagree with you that are wrong?

    I've heard that song sung a million times. The tune is always the same, flat.
     
  7. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    The words that I speak are spirit and truth.

    They come from God through the Holy Spirit.

    It is not me you reject. I could not know these words of my own self.

    Is that not what Jesus told the Pharisees?

    The words of God are alive and the words speak for them self to prove it.

    if you are unwilling to think on them that is your right. :)
     
  8. biggandyy

    biggandyy I am here to help...

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    So now you are the spokesman for the Lord Almighty? That's a fair amount of hubris, ego, with just a smidgen of delusions of grandeur tossed in for good measure. Mix it all up and we get... well, Angie is watching.

    As for your attack against my "unwillingness to think"... I always find it wonderfully instructive to point out to others reading the threads to watch what happens when someone like yourself attempts to engage in "thoughtful" discussion. It is always a personal attack against the intelligence of a person with whom you disagree. You (and your ilk) always consider yourselves the mentally superior (or spiritually superior) in the discussion and go about it one of two ways (in fact you've used both in your post).

    First you attack the intelligence of others (I've already pointed that out), and second your wrap yourselves up in a tight little cocoon of holy sounding words like, "The words that I speak are spirit and truth..." or the ever popular amongst charlatans, "They come from God through the Holy Spirit. It is not me you reject..."

    You speak only for yourself, as do I, and as does everyone else on the planet. The Lord speaks for the Lord through the scripture. To attempt to take up the mantle of divinity by claiming to speak holy words is tantamount to Lucifer holding himself up as better than God. So, get behind me Satan, you've nothing to establish but his kingdom in this world.
     
  9. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Sorry if I have offended you as that is not my intentions.

    I did not say you are unwilling to think.

    I said that it is your choice whether to do so or not.

    Bigganddy, you cannot anger or fluster me.

    If you or anyone one thinks they see such in my words it is only their imagination, evidently because they are desiring that to be. :)

    I have perfect peace in Jesus.

    That is the way it is for we who are in him.
     
  10. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I have to agree with BAndy. I've been posting on this board long enough to see scores of people present the same old heresies as enlightened truth, over and over and over again.....

    Yet, it is not their incomplete doctrine that betrays their heart; instead, it is their inflated ego. It doesn't matter if you are clubbing someone to death with the truth or lie, the result is the same.

    Christians are called to love each other - unfortunately, most people who post on message boards confuse 'love' with 'informing' people of the truth or their truth. Love is Spirit driven - informing people is false self driven - it ends up puffing up the ego of the informer.

    So, I invite you out of your ivory tower, Vengle - leave your ego and come forth to love!
     
  11. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You are making a judgment of imagination.

    I see this as a debate site and that is how all of you use it.

    What you are saying sanctions anything you or those who believe like you do but blackens me for doing the same thing.

    And I am nicer about than you guys because I do not infer that you must be a heretic or an antichrist to believe what you believe just because it happens to be different from what I believe. Nor do I say things like you are playing God.

    Your post is hypocritical aspen as it is a double standard.

    Look what i posted on the Debate Forum at 8:28 AM today under the thread The Age of God's Grace post #141:

    The proof that i do not treat you guys as ill as you are trying to make it is all over this site.

    Even what you in your pride interpret as my pride in reality are only things I have humbly exposed to you about me so that you can see I have no strings of religions to bias me.

    These organized religions are people's hang-ups and the cause of pride.

    1 Corinthians 1:12-13 "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

    Here is the church our loyalty belongs to:

    Hebrews 12:22 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."
     
  12. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    So....you hear that you may be acting prideful in your presentation of scripture - multiple sources have confronted you with insight regarding your behavior - you consider the feedback and decide that arrogance is definitely in play on the board, but it is not you; it is everyone else who are actually guilty of being arrogant? Wow....

    Alright! Guess there is nothing more to say......

    As far as the dangers of belonging to a church - I agree that people can become possessive and nationalistic (churchilistic?) about their denominations or affiliations. I think the greater danger is found in private interpretation of the scriptures. I think your distrust of scholars and holy men who have spent their lives studying the scriptures and finding agreement with each other over key doctrines like the Trinity and the Incarnation of Christ is reckless. Have you read Thomas Aquinas? Augustine? CS Lewis? Jerome? All of these Christian men have disseminated the scriptures, building on each other's work for centuries. Of course, Protestants have been taught that this is a bad thing....

    I think it is quite insane to believe that centuries of understanding and insight by Christians is chucked out the window. Could you imagine doing the same thing in the study of mathematics or physics? "Oh those guys who built on the theories of Newton and the Greeks and Romans are corrupt!! Who cares if the theories allowed us to travel to the moon or as far as Pluto - they cannot possible understand the subject as I understand it!!" Can you see how this can be interpreted as arrogance?

    One of the terrible consequences of sola scriptura is the belief that private interpretation of the scriptures is valid. It is the height of relativism. Protestants call it the Lone Ranger syndrome - Catholics call it trying to be your own Pope - whatever the terminology, the practice of reinventing the wheel when it come to interpreting scripture is dangerous! Do you really believe the Spirit of God is going to mislead earnest people for two thousands years about the nature of God and than decide to give you a new understanding of doctrine? So did Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddy and Ellen White and Charles Russell and Anne Lee.....
     
  13. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    It's amazing how God can hide in the wide open... just as He did two thousand years ago.
    1st Tim. 3:16 says,

    16 and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was
    manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by
    messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the
    world, taken up in glory!


    Logabe
     
  14. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    Those who don't want to believe that Jesus is God will continue to believe He is not until God open their mind to see it. No amount of scriptures in the Bible is going to convince them otherwise if God does not remove the blindness.
     
  15. biggandyy

    biggandyy I am here to help...

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    Amen. Remember, EVERY knee will bow to Christ the Lord, whether they bend it in adoration of Him, or it is broken for them in submission to His will.
     
  16. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I didn't say it, The SCRIPTURE did! How??

    It's because the idea of The CHRIST (Messiah) given in the Isaiah Scripture examples declares The Christ as God (Isaiah 7 through 9).

    I Jn 2:22-23
    22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    (KJV)



    So, do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ per that Scripture or not??
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    A lesson on just HOW... the Old Testament Scripture declares The Christ as God The Saviour...

    Ps 110:1-4
    1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
    3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
    4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
    (KJV)

    The Psalms is speaking of The Christ (Messiah) as "my Lord", and as that One as a Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.


    As foretold by Daniel...

    Dan 9:25
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    KJV


    Foretold of by God through Moses...

    Deut 18:18-19
    18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
    19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
    KJV


    As foretold by God through His prophet Michah...

    Mic 5:2
    2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
    KJV


    As foretold by God through His prophet Isaiah...

    Isa 11:1-4
    11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
    3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
    4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
    KJV


    In the Psalms again...

    Ps 2:6-9
    6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.
    7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    8 Ask of Me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
    9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
    KJV


    Per God through His prophet Jeremiah...

    Jer 23:5-6
    5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    KJV


    God through His prophet Zechariah...

    Zech 9:9
    9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
    KJV


    And then of course, God through His prophet Isaiah again...

    Isa 7:13-14
    13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
    14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
    (KJV)


    Isa 9:6-7
    6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
    (KJV)


    That 'sign' was fulfilled through Jesus of Nazareth The Christ, and the parts in those prophecies still yet to come will be fulfilled at His second coming. So when Apostle John speaks of Jesus as The Christ, ALL OF THOSE OLD TESTAMENT WITNESSES are included! (There's even more OT witnesses about The Christ than those I posted above).

    Thus the unbelieving Jews are without excuse. Jesus of Nazareth IS 'The Christ', and to deny that is John's definition of an "antichrist".

    I Jn 4:3
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    (KJV)
     
  18. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I think there are two issues in play; is Jesus the Messiah? And is the Messiah God?

    I believe the disciples definitely believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but I am not sure if anyone thought that the Messiah was divine, because he was not prophesied to be divine. I believe that Jesus's divinity was realized over time. The disciples and their follower's faith waxed and waned before any definitive doctrine was written.
     
  19. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Simple way to find that out. What does the Isaiah 9:6 verse declare?


    The following is of where... Jesus The Christ would be born...

    Mic 5:2
    2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
    KJV

    What does that, "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" mean?? What does the Hebrew name 'Immanuel' mean??


    There's all kinds of NT evidence for Jesus declaring Himself as God, like Rev.1 and Rev.21 & 22 with the Alpha and Omega reference to Isaiah 44:6. So really, Christians who doubt this are without excuse also.
     
  20. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    The Jewish concept of the Messiah did not include divinity. Also, I know that Jesus believed He was divine and declared it, but I think the disciples and Pharisees often missed it because they were not looking for it.
     
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