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Is Jesus God?

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Groundzero, Aug 7, 2011.

  1. Yes

    90.5%
  2. No

    9.5%
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  1. Spiritforce

    Spiritforce New Member

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    You would have to ignore a vast body of scripture to believe Jesus is not God. For instance:


    THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST


    1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
    2. He was with God (John 1:1).
    3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
    4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
    5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
    6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
    7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
    8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
    9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
    10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father
    (Philippians 2:5-7).
    11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
    12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
    13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
    14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
    15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
    16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25;
    Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
    17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
    18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
    19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
    20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as
    God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds
    (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as
    God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew
    14:33; 28:9).
    21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
    22. He saves. (Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
    23. He judges. (John 5:22)
    24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter
    3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
    25. He is God's Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
    26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
    27. One with the Father (John 10:30).
     
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I've researched a lot of what the New Age beliefs are and where they originate, and their denial that Jesus is God having come in the flesh goes back to what the ancient pagans believed, i.e., that each person has the ability to become their own god. Denial that Jesus Christ is God with us (Immanuel) come in the flesh was later a doctrine of 2nd century Gnosticism, and they also believed what the ancient pagans believed in one becoming their own god, which is why they denied Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.
     
  3. Nathantaurus90

    Nathantaurus90 New Member

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    Researched more on the Trinity, found that it has ancient pagan origins (Babylonian, greecian and Roman0, so will look to nontrinitarian
    religions. Constantine incorporated the Trinity without looking at the scriptures in the 4th century.

    The English word Trinity is derived from the Latin word Trinitas,
    meaning "the number three, a triad".

    Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd
    century, is credited with using the words "Trinity". The
    word 'Trinity' does not appear in either the old or new
    testament.

    Scriptures that disprove the trinity:


    When Satan tried to get Jesus to worship
    him, Jesus replied;

    ''Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written:
    'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.''

    If Jesus was God, this statement wouldn't make sense.

    Jesus states in John that he hasn't returned to his Father;

    John 20:17:
    ''Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father.
    Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

    Regarding the end times (armageddon), only God the Father
    knows, not even Jesus;

    Mark 13:32:
    ''No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven,
    nor the Son, but only the Father.''

    So Jesus, if he was God, would know the end time, but
    he doesn't. So God did not send himself in Jesus' body.
    They are separate beings.

    Stephen saw Jesus next to God, they were separate,
    not one;

    Acts 7:55:
    ''But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw
    the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.''

    So Stephen saw two separate beings in his vision,
    and not a third holy spirit person.

    Jesus aknowledged that he was 'sent' to do
    anothers will, not his own;

    John 6:38:
    ''For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will,
    but the will of him that sent me.''

    Here are a few sayings of Jesus about God,
    whilst he was being crucified,
    proving that they are different;

    Luke 23:34:
    ''Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

    If Jesus was God, he would have said ''I will forgive you''.

    Luke 23:46:
    ''Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."
    When he had said this, he breathed his last.''

    Jesus acknowledged that his Father is greater than
    him;

    John 14:28:
    ''You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.'
    If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.''

    Mark 10:18
    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.''

    Jesus' teachings are not his own;

    John 7:15:
    ''The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?"

    Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.''

    John 12:49
    ''For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me
    what to say and how to say it.''

    John 8:28:
    ''So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that
    I am [the one I claim to be] and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the
    Father has taught me.

    The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."

    So Jesus did not send himself, his Father sent him.

    Jesus said to pray to 'our Father', not
    'me'

    Matthew 6:9:
    ''This, then, is how you should pray:

    ''Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name.''

    In the scriptures, God is referred to as one person, not three;

    Isaiah 42:8:
    ''I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another.''

    Deuteronomy 6:4:
    ''Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one''

    Genesis 1:1:
    ''In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ''

    Isaiah 44:6:
    ''Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts:
    I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is no God.''

    God says that he is eternal, the beginning and the end,
    Jesus never claimed this;

    Revelation 22:13:
    ''I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.''

    When Jesus fed the 5000 crowd in Bethsaida, he gave thanks
    for the food before serving. If Jesus was God, he wouldn't thank himself;

    Matthew 14:19:
    ''And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish
    and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples,
    and the disciples gave them to the people.

    Before raising Lazarus from the dead, Jesus thanked
    his Father for hearing him;

    John 11:41:
    ''So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you
    that you have heard me.

    I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here,
    that they may believe that you sent me'

    When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!"

    When Thomas was confused about where Jesus was
    going, Jesus stated what he meant;

    John 14:5:
    ''Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

    Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except
    through me.''

    If Jesus was God, why did he mention about going to the Father?
    He would have said getting to him only.

    When Jesus was baptized, Jehovah God himself spoke
    about his love for his son. If the trinity was true, how could
    God be in Jesus, but speak from Heaven at the same time?
    Clearly, God is separate from Jesus.

    Matthew 3:16:
    ''As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened,
    and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

    And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

    Constantine of the Roman empire wanted to unite people with pagan doctrines,
    the Trinity being one of them;

    Here is more scriptures disproving the trinity;

    John 17:3:

    ''Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.''


    God spoke to Jesus, if Jesus was God this wouldn't make any sense;

    Psalm 110:1:
    ''Jehovah saith unto my Lord (Jesus), Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.''

    Thus, the Trinity is considered to be "one God in three Persons." Each is said to be without beginning, having existed for eternity. Each is said to be almighty, with each neither greater nor lesser than the others.
    Is such reasoning hard to follow? Many sincere believers have found it to be confusing, contrary to normal reason, unlike anything in their experience. How, they ask, could the Father be God, Jesus be God, and the holy spirit be God, yet there be not three Gods but only one God?


    HOW could such a confusing doctrine originate? The Catholic Encyclopedia claims: "A dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation." Catholic scholars Karl Rahner and Herbert Vorgrimler state in their Theological Dictionary: "The Trinity is a mystery . . . in the strict sense . . . , which could not be known without revelation, and even after revelation cannot become wholly intelligible."
    However, contending that since the Trinity is such a confusing mystery, it must have come from divine revelation creates another major problem. Why? Because divine revelation itself does not allow for such a view of God: "God is not a God of confusion."—1 Corinthians 14:33, Revised Standard Version (RS).

    So God would not allow for 'scriptual confusion'

    In the next verse, it says Jesus will be NEXT
    to God, not the same person. NOTE THAT A THIRD
    'HOLY SPIRIT PERSON' ISN'T MENTIONED;
    Mark 14:62:
    ''I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

    IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God's revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.

    Constantine incorporates Pagan Trinity doctrine into mainstream Christianity;

    AT THIS point you might ask: 'If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom?' Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.
    What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, 'of one substance with the Father' . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination."
    'Fourth century Trinitarianism was a deviation from early Christian teaching.' —The Encyclopedia Americana
    Hence, Constantine's role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. "Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology," says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.
    None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?
    Further Development [​IMG]
    I think I need to do some more research on Trinity, but I think it's
    safe to say it's not biblical;

    1 Thessalonians 5:21:
    ''but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.''

    2 Timothy 4:3:
    ''For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.''

    More scriptures;

    Hebrews 10:12:
    ''But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;''

    Jesus talks with his Father (God), not himself;
    John 17:24:
    ''Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.''

    John 17:5:
    ''And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.''

    Jesus said our God is HIS GOD TOO,
    not himself;
    John 20:17:
    ''Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

    However, I respect your views, if you believe in the Trinity that's fine, just put
    what I've discovered from various sites and the bible, of course.
     
  4. Groundzero

    Groundzero Not Afraid To Stand

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    Very interesting. Good research.

    I would make one amendment: Jesus IS God. The mystery is as to how God could come to earth in a body of flesh. Jesus is God, but on earth, he had a dual nature. One was God. The other was man. If you study carefully, you will find places where he speaks as one who was sent from God, and other places where he speaks as God.

    I always find it fascinating how that the Jews wanted to stone him for being the Son of God. I think the Jews understood what being the Son of God meant. It didn't mean being a distinct personality. It meant that you were God incarnate. That's why the Jews picked up stones and wanted to stone him. They knew what he was claiming to be, the ONE and only Lord and God of Israel. Unfortunately for them, that's exactly who he was.
     
  5. Nathantaurus90

    Nathantaurus90 New Member

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    I'm glad that I have tested what is true 1 Thessolonians 5:21:''but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.''

    I've finally realised the truth, Jesus is not God, he is the way to the Father,
    but he is not Jehovah:

    John 14:6:''Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.''

    Why would Jesus say that scripture above, if he was God? It wouldn't make any sense.

    1 Timothy 2:5:''there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,''

    When Jehovah God spoke to Jesus during his baptism, did Jesus speak to himself? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

    Matthew 3:16:
    ''As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened,
    and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.

    And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

    This would be impossible if God was in Jesus' body.

    John 17:5''And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.''

    Who is Jesus talking to in this scripture? Himself?

    When jesus was crucified, he cried out ' Father why have you foresaken me?'Matthew 27:46

    Luke 23:34''Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

    If Jesus was God, he would have said 'I will forgive you' So clearly, Jesus is talking to
    another, not 'himself'.

    After doing some research on scriptures and history on Trinity, I definitely do not believe it.
     
  6. Groundzero

    Groundzero Not Afraid To Stand

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  7. Spiritforce

    Spiritforce New Member

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    It's obvious you're confusing Jesus' (then) temporary position as an incarnated man, with his deity. The scripture is absolutely clear when it says about Jesus that He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father
    (Philippians 2:5-7)

    But even then, in his incarnation, he referred to himself as "Lord of the Sabbath." He also instituted a major new Covenant, and major new covenants are only instituted by God.

    As for supposed pagan origins, Jesus' origins are found in the Old Testament. What's more, the scriptures in both the Old Testament and the New Testament confirm Jesus is Jehovah. Some examples below:

    Is Jesus God? What do the Scriptures say?

    John 1:23 quotes Isaiah 40:3 as saying John the Baptist was to prepare the way for the LORD (Jehovah). John prepared the way before Jesus so Jesus must be LORD (Jehovah).

    In Isaiah 44:8 God is the only Rock. Psalm 18:31 says, “Who is the Rock except our God”? I Corinthians 10:4, identifies Jesus as the Rock. Jesus must also then be God the Rock.

    Isaiah 44:24 says that God (Jehovah) is the one who has made all things. Colossians 1:16, speaking of Christ, says that “all things were created by Him and for him”. Jesus must therefore be Jehovah God.

    In Jeremiah 10:10 it says “the LORD (Jehovah) is the true God”. I John 5:20 states that Jesus is the “true God”. Jesus must be the true God.

    Isaiah 43:10,11 says that “I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me. Jesus is the Savior (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1, etc., etc.). Jesus must be God the Savior.

    Jehovah knows all things (Psalm 147:5). Jesus knows “all things.” (John 16:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah alone is the only one who knows the hearts of all men. (1 Kings 8:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10). Jesus knows the hearts of all men. (John 2:24-25; Rev. 2:18, 23). Jesus must be God.

    Jehovah is our sanctifier. (Exodus 31:13). Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:10). Only God is the sanctifier of men. Jesus must be God.

    Jehovah is our peace (Judges 6:23). Jesus is our peace (Ephesians 2:14). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah is our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). Jesus is our righteousness. (Romans 3:21-22; 1 Corinthians 1:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be delivered / snatched out of His hand (Deuteronomy 32:39). Jesus is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (John 10:28). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters” (Ezekiel 43:2). Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters” (Revelation 1:15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah is present everywhere.(Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:24; I Kings 8:27); Jesus is omnipresent (John 1:48; Matthew 18:20; 28:20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah’s nature does not change (Malachi 3:6). Jesus’ nature does not change. (Hebrews 13:8).

    Jehovah is the only God we are to “serve”(2 Kings 17:35); Jesus (identified as the Creator in Colossians 1:16-17) is to be served (Colossians 3:24). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah the Lord is to be set apart as holy (Isaiah 8:12b-13). Jesus, as Lord, is to be set apart as holy (1 Peter 3:14b-15a).

    Jehovah’s glory is not to be given to another (Isaiah 42:8). Jesus shares Jehovah’s glory (John 17:5). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    God’s name is Jehovah (or Yahweh—YHWH – Isaiah 42:8). Jesus has Jehovah’s name (John 17:11; John 16:14-15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah is the “mighty God” (Jeremiah 32:17-18; Isaiah 10:20-21). Jesus is the “mighty God”
    (Isaiah 9:6) who is “Almighty” (Revelation 1:7-8).

    Jehovah is “the first and the last” (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12). Jesus is the “first and the last” (Revelation 1:17-18; 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 1:8; Revelation 21:6-7). Jesus is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah’s title is “the Holy One” (Isaiah 47:4). Jesus is “the Holy One” (Acts 3:14; John 6:69). Jesus must be Jehovah, the Holy One.

    Jehovah is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (Isaiah 8:13-15). Jesus is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (1 Peter 2:6-8). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah is the great Judge who gives life to whom he wishes and who renders to each man “according” to his “deeds” (Psalm 98:9; Deuteronomy 32:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10). Jesus is the only judge who gives life to whom he wishes and renders to each man “according” to his “deeds” (John 5:21-22; Revelation 2:18, 23). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    Jehovah is the great “shepherd” who leads his people to “the spring of the water of life” (Psalm 23:1-2; Revelation 21:6-7). Jesus as the “shepherd” of His people, leads them “to springs of the water of life” (John 10:11-18; Revelation 7:17). THERE IS ONLY ONE SHEPHERD –John 10:16.

    Jehovah is “Lord of Lords” (Deuteronomy 10:17). Jesus is “Lord of Lords.” (Revelation 17:14; 19:16). The Father is Lord of all (Matthew 11:25; Acts 17:24). Jesus is “Lord of all.” (Acts 10:36). THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD (Jude 4) .

    Jehovah created the universe (Psalm 102:25-27). Jesus created the universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-19; Hebrews 1:10-12). THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR. (Isaiah 44:24). Jesus must be Jehovah.

    http://righterreport.com/2011/09/29/jesus-must-be-jehovah-god/
     
  8. Nathantaurus90

    Nathantaurus90 New Member

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    Of course Jesus was like God, he was sent from God

    ''For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ''
    John 3:16

    If a man loves me, he will keep my words; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him. John 14:23.

    ...and my Father will love him... So Jesus clearly isn't Almighty God.


    That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. John 17:21.

    And I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father keep in your name them whom you have given me, that they may be one as we. John 17:11

    Jesus is in union with his Father Yahweh, but they are SEPARATE

    Just as you sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. John 17:18

    1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". If Jesus is the mediator between us and God then that would mean that Jesus is separated from God.

    Romans 15:6, 2 Cor. 1:3, Eph. 1:3, Eph. 1:17, John 20:17: these verses all state the same thing which, "Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". if Jesus was God then these verses are saying that God has a God. this idea is preposterous. God does not have a God since there i only one true God, "This is eternal life, that they may know you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent" John 17:3

    Mark 18:10:
    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

    Galatians 3:20:
    ''Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham.

    Psalm 83:18:
    ''That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.''

    The Bible does not teach the concept of the Trinity. The word is just a man made word to worship a pagan belief from Constantine
    Jesus was GIVEN authority by Yahweh in Heaven;

    Matthew 28:18-20 . . And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.

    In Isaiah 44:6 & 8 God makes the statement, "I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me . . . Is there a God beside me? there is no other God; I know not any." Could scripture be any plainer than this?

    Deuteronomy 6:4
    ''Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:''

    So God isn't 'three' people in a Trinity is he?
    John 8:17-18:

    ''It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

    [sup] [/sup]I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.''

    So we are talking about TWO DISTINCT INDIVIDUALS.

    Not even Jesus knows about the end times, BUT JEHOVAH GOD DOES, as
    they are separate;


    Mark 13:32

    New International Version (NIV)
    The Day and Hour Unknown

    [sup] [/sup]“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. ''

    Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    Matthew 20:20
    Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.

    "What is it you want?" he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."

    You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?" "We can," they answered.

    Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

    How strange! If Jesus was God, why would he not know the places already prepared?

    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is
    Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God

    1 corinthians 11:3, So Christ clearly has someone above him

    It's interesting that the early Christians rejected the trinity theory at first, but Pagan beliefs
    were quickly accepted. Constantine mixed both paganism and false worship into Christianity.

    He absorbed several unbiblical doctrines including;

    The belief in 'three gods in one' despite the old testament clearly
    stating that Yahweh is one (Not three)

    Isaiah 45:5
    I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird thee, though thou hast not known me;

    The Cult of Isis, an Egyptian mother-goddess religion, was absorbed into Christianity by replacing Isis with Mary. Many of the titles that were used for Isis, such as “Queen of Heaven,” “Mother of God,” and theotokos (“God-bearer”) were attached to Mary. Mary was given an exalted role in the Christian faith, far beyond what the Bible ascribes to her, in order to attract Isis worshippers to a faith they would not otherwise embrace. Many temples to Isis were, in fact, converted into temples dedicated to Mary. The first clear hints of Catholic Mariology occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal point of Isis worship.

    The supremacy of the Roman bishop (the papacy) was created with the support of the Roman emperors. With the city of Rome being the center of government for the Roman Empire, and with the Roman emperors living in Rome, the city of Rome rose to prominence in all facets of life. Constantine and his successors gave their support to the bishop of Rome as the supreme ruler of the church. Of course, it is best for the unity of the Roman Empire that the government and state religion be centered in the same location. While most other bishops (and Christians) resisted the idea of the Roman bishop being supreme, the Roman bishop eventually rose to supremacy, due to the power and influence of the Roman emperors. When the Roman Empire collapsed, the popes took on the title that had previously belonged to the Roman emperors – Pontificus Maximus.


    The origin of the Catholic Church is the tragic compromise of Christianity with the pagan religions that surrounded it. Instead of proclaiming the gospel and converting the pagans, the Catholic Church “Christianized” the pagan religions, and “paganized” Christianity. By blurring the differences and erasing the distinctions, yes, the Catholic Church made itself attractive to the people of the Roman Empire. One result was the Catholic Church becoming the supreme religion in the “Roman world” for centuries. However, another result was the most dominant form of Christianity apostatizing from the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the true proclamation of God’s Word.

    Second Timothy 4:3-4 declares, “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

    It's shocking how many people don't research into certain believes and their roots/origins.

    "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th
    century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."—New Catholic Encyclopedia.
    THIS disreputable history of the Trinity fits in with what Jesus and his apostles foretold would follow their time. They said that there would be an apostasy, a deviation, a falling away from true worship until Christ's return, when true worship would be restored before God's day of destruction of this system of things.
    "The Triad of the Great Gods"
    Many centuries before the time of Christ, there were triads, or trinities, of gods in ancient Babylonia and Assyria. The French "Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology" notes one such triad in that Mesopotamian area: "The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu's share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters. Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods."
    Regarding that "day," the apostle Paul said: "It will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed." (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7) Later, he foretold: "When I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and will have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them." (Acts 20:29, 30, JB) Other disciples of Jesus also wrote of this apostasy with its 'lawless' clergy class.—See, for example, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4.


    Jesus himself explained what was behind this falling away from true worship. He said that he had sowed good seeds but that the enemy, Satan, would oversow the field with weeds. So along with the first blades of wheat, the weeds appeared also. Thus, a deviation from pure Christianity was to be expected until the harvest, when Christ would set matters right. (Matthew 13:24-43) The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching." Where, then, did this deviation originate?—1 Timothy 1:6.

    THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.
    Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."

    WHY, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?
    Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an "inscrutable mystery" "beyond the grasp of human reason," one that admittedly had a pagan background and was "largely a matter of church politics"?
    The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.

    Like the scripture 1 corinthians 14:33
    ''For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,''

    Would God really let us believe a pagan 'mystery' and just accept it?
     
  9. Spiritforce

    Spiritforce New Member

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    The Trinity is clearly seen in both the OT and the NT. Here's some examples from the OT:

    EXAMPLE # 1: The "Shema" Verse

    For most Jewish people, the "Shema" is the foundational verse for the concept of a monotheistic God. It is the very heart of Judaism, and serves to confirm, in the Jewish mind, that there cannot be anything other than one God. The Shema verse is found in Deuteronomy 6:4, and says:

    "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."

    In Hebrew it reads, "Shema Yisrael Adonai Elohenu Adonai Echad." The word Shema is the first Hebrew word in the passage and means "hear." At first glance this seems to support the Jewish concept of a monotheistic God. However, a careful examination of Deuteronomy 6:4 actually establishes, rather than refutes, the plurality of God. In fact, the Shema verse actually presents one of the strongest arguments for the tri-unity of God in the entire Bible. Here's why. The last word of the Shema verse is echad, which is translated into English as the word "one." This is what is known as a compound-unity noun - that is to say, a noun which demonstrates oneness or unity, but at the same time contains two or more entities. A number of scriptural examples will help make the point.

    Genesis 2:24, speaking of the union of Adam and Eve, reads: "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become ONE flesh." Here, the Hebrew word that is used for "one" (one flesh) is the same word for "one" that is found in the Shema verse - echad. It clearly speaks of the unity of more than one person into a united, or singular, entity.

    In Genesis 1:5, Moses used this same word when he described the first day of creation: "And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." This "one" day, or "first" day is the Hebrew word echad. The one day referred to was comprised of both light and darkness - evening and morning.

    In Numbers 13:23, it speaks of a "cluster" of grapes. The word "cluster" is again the Hebrew word echad. Obviously, this singular cluster of grapes consisted of more than one grape.

    In Ezra 2:64, the Bible records, "The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand, three hundred and threescore." The words translated "whole congregation" in English are derived from the single Hebrew word echad. Again, a singular entity (one congregation) is comprised of more than one individual.

    And still another example is found in Jeremiah 32, verses 38-39 which reads, "And they shall be my people, and I will be their God; And I will give THEM ONE HEART." Here, the many people are given "one" (echad) heart. A unity of two or more individuals into oneness.

    Interestingly, however, there is another Hebrew word which signifies an absolute oneness, or singleness. That word is yachid. It is found in such scriptures as Genesis 22:2 (only son - one son), in Proverbs 4:3, in Judges 11:34, in Jeremiah 6:26, Amos 8:10, and in Zechariah 12:10 - "....and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only son." So considering that the Old Testament is the inspired word of God, Jehovah had a choice of using a word that implies singularity (yachid), or plurality in oneness (echad). He chose echad to make his point, so that it might be understood there is a plurality in union.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 does not deny the Trinity but rather establishes one of the planks of the Trinity: there is one God. It is important to understand that Scripture interprets Scripture. By interpreting Deuteronomy 6:4 in conjunction with other verses, we learn that the one true God is triune in personality (2 Cor. 13:14), i.e., there are three persons in this one nature.
    Each of the three persons of the Trinity is called God in Scripture: the Father (1 Peter 1:2), the Son (John 20:28), and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3–4). Moreover, each possesses the attributes of deity—including omnipresence (Ps. 139:7; Matt. 28:20; Heb. 4:13), omniscience (Matt. 9:4; Rom. 11:33; 1 Cor. 2:10), and omnipotence (Matt. 28:18; Rom. 15:19; 1 Peter 1:5).
    Three-in-oneness within the Godhead is clear in such passages as Matthew 28:19: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (niv). The word name is singular in the Greek, indicating that there is one God. But there are three distinct persons within the Godhead, as indicated by the three definite articles in the Greek—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This three-in-oneness is also reflected in 2 Corinthians 13:14. So, there is only one God, but there is a plurality within this unity—a plurality of persons within the unity of nature. - Norman Geisler

    EXAMPLE # 2: "Elohim"

    In the very first verse of the Bible we find a statement which clearly illustrates the plurality of God.

    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
    Genesis 1:1

    The Hebrew word that is used for God in Genesis 1:1 is the word Elohim, a derivitive of the word El. "El" denotes God in the singular sense, while "Elohim" is the plural notation for God. Of the 2,750 times that these words are used in the Old Testament, Elohim, the plural form, is used in 2,500 cases, and is used 32 times in the accounts of the Genesis creation of the heavens and the earth.

    Another excellent example of the word Elohim used in a critical text is found in Exodus 20:1, where the Lord is giving the Ten Commandments to Moses and the people of Israel:

    "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt."

    Grammatically, it would be acceptable to say, "I am the Lord your Gods." Such examples as these, which occur 2,500 times in the Old Testament, raises the following question: If the scriptures are the divine word of God, why would the Lord consistently select the plural form of God - Elohim, to refer to Him in a plural sense? Why would He not use the singular form, El, in each instance? This is a very serious issue that needs to be addressed for those who believe in a monotheistic God.

    EXAMPLE #3: Plurality in Personal Pronouns

    Plurality in personal pronouns (such as "us" and "our") when used in reference to the Lord, lends additional documentary evidence for the plurality of God. A good case in point is Genesis 1:26:

    "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,
    and let have dominion over the fist of the sea, and over the birds
    of the air, and over the livestock, and over all the earth."

    Here, we see a conversation that is taking place prior to the creation of man. Who is this person or persons with whom God is conversing? First, this 'person' or 'persons' is able to communicate with God in His own realm of timeless eternity. Because man had not yet been created, He was not speaking to someone of earthly intelligence, but someone in the heavenly, supernatural and eternal realm.

    Secondly, this person or persons with whom God is communicating apparently has the same kind of creative ability as God ("Let us make"). This clearly implies a cooperative effort between God (Elohim - plural) and the person or person with whom God is speaking.

    And finally, the person or persons with whom God is speaking is comparable, or identical, with God ("Let us make man in our image, after our likeness").

    When confronted with this passage, modern Jewish rabbis often claim that God is speaking with angels. However, this explanation fails to address a number of problems. First, there is no indication found anywhere in the Bible that says angels can create life. Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that angels were ever made in the image and likeness of God. And finally, there is no indication from scripture that mankind was ever made in the likeness of angels.

    Just one more example. In Genesis chapter 11, God is looking down at man's attempt to build the Tower of Babel to make a name for themselves. In verse 7 God states:

    "Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will
    not understand one another."

    Once more, the personal pronoun "us" is used as a reference to God. Note that in verse 11:5 it is "the Lord" that is referred to when "us" is later used ("The Lord came down to see the city").

    The "Creators" of the Universe

    The plurality of the Creator (Elohim) in Genesis 1:1 has been dismissed by many as simply a description of God's diverse nature. However, the plurality of the creator of heaven and earth is also seen in a number of other Old Testament verses. For example, in Ecclesiastes 12:1 we read,

    "Remember also thy Creators in the days of thy youth, while the
    evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt
    say, 'I have no pleasure in them."

    The notion of a plural Creator is also seen in Isaiah 54:5, where the prophet states:

    "For thy 'Maker' is thy husband, Jehovah of Hosts is His name."

    In the above verse, the word "Maker" is the Hebrew word "asa," which denotes the plurality of the entity involved in the creative process.

    EXAMPLE #4: The Holy Spirit is a Person - God!

    While in Genesis 1:2 we see the "Spirit of God" moving upon the face of the waters during creation (remember God as "Elohim," a plural creator), there is a very important and often overlooked verse in which the prophet Isaiah reveals that the Holy Spirit is more than just some type of spiritual force. Isaiah 63:10 reads,

    "But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore He was
    turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them."

    The word "vexed," as used above, is the Hebrew word "atsab," which means "to worry, pain, or anger; to grieve, hurt, or make sorry" (Zodhiates Old Testament Word Study - Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary section, page 91). The question, of course, is "How can some inanimate force be angered or grieved, as we see occurred in the above passage? Only if the Holy Spirit was alive and possessed personal attributes could He experience these types of emotions." The Holy Spirit must therefore be a person.

    Another important verse that shows that the Holy Spirit is one of the "Creators" is found in Job 33:4, which reads,

    "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty
    hath given me life."

    Obviously, the Holy Spirit must possess intelligence in order to take part in the creative process. Other "personal" attributes of the Holy Spirit are as follows:

    1. The Holy Spirit "testifies" (Nehemiah 9:30).
    2. The Spirit "instructs" (Nehemiah 9:20).
    3. The Spirit "strives with men" (Genesis 6:3).
    4. The Spirit sends messengers (Isaiah 48:16).
    5. The Spirit enabled Joseph to interpret Pharoah's dreams (Genesis 41:38).
    6. The Spirit gives wisdom (Exodus 28:3; 31:1-6; 35:31).
    7. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Wisdom" (Isaiah 11:2).
    8. He is the Spirit of Knowledge (Isaiah 11:2)

    Notice clearly that all of the things that the Holy Spirit does requires intelligence of the variety that only God alone can possess. This ties God and the Holy Spirit together in a most closely-knit and inseparable unity.
     
  10. Nathantaurus90

    Nathantaurus90 New Member

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    JESUS called God "the only true God." (John 17:3) Never did he refer to God as a deity of plural persons. That is why nowhere in the Bible is anyone but Jehovah called Almighty. Otherwise, it voids the meaning of the word "almighty." Neither Jesus nor the holy spirit is ever called that, for Jehovah alone is supreme. At Genesis 17:1 he declares: "I am God Almighty." And Exodus 18:11 says: "Jehovah is greater than all the other gods."
    [font="helvetica][size="4"]Jesus a Separate Creation[/size][/font] [​IMG]

    WHILE on earth, Jesus was a human, although a perfect one because it was God who transferred the life-force of Jesus to the womb of Mary. (Matthew 1:18-25) But that is not how he began. He himself declared that he had "descended from heaven." (John 3:13) So it was only natural that he would later say to his followers: "What if you should see the Son of man [Jesus] ascend to where he was before?"—John 6:62, NJB.
    Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation.
    [font="verdana][size="2"]Having been created by God, Jesus is in a secondary position in time, power, and knowledge[/size][/font]​
    Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was "the first-born of all creation." (Colossians 1:15, NJB) He was "the beginning of God's creation." (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). "Beginning" [Greek, ar·khe'] cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the 'beginner' of God's creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek word ar·khe' more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of "beginning." Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of God's invisible creations.

    Notice how closely those references to the origin of Jesus correlate with expressions uttered by the figurative "Wisdom" in the Bible book of Proverbs: "Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world." (Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26, NJB) While the term "Wisdom" is used to personify the one whom God created, most scholars agree that it is actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence.

    As "Wisdom" in his prehuman existence, Jesus goes on to say that he was "by his [God's] side, a master craftsman." (Proverbs 8:30, JB) In harmony with this role as master craftsman, Colossians 1:16 says of Jesus that "through him God created everything in heaven and on earth."—Today's English Version (TEV).
     
  11. Spiritforce

    Spiritforce New Member

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    The Trinity was also known and spoken about by the early church fathers long before Constantine:

    Early Trinitarian Quotes

    The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:
    Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.


    "O Lord God almighty... I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

    Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

    "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

    Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

    "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).

    "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

    Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

    "The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

    Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

    "We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation... [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

    Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

    "If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority... There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

    "For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

    "Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

    If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

    Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

    Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

    The early church believed in the Trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity, as well as other doctrines that came under fire.

    carm.org
     
  12. Nathantaurus90

    Nathantaurus90 New Member

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    Jesus said in Luke that he was sent,
    which disproves the Trinity, and that
    the holy spirit was received, so how can it be
    a person?

    John 20:22:
    ''Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

    And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.''

    The Prophet Joel said that Yahweh God
    would pour out his spirit, not a person,
    to help poeople prophesy;

    Acts 2:14:
    ''And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
    that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
    and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy.''

    Acts 2:4
    ''And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues.''

    So people are filled by God's force, not a 'person'.

    In revelation, the bible says that God is mighty,
    and the Lamb (Jesus). No 'holy spirit' person is mentioned;

    Revelation 7:10:
    ''And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

    Revelation 22:3:
    ''No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there,
    and his servants will worship him.''

    Jesus says that He will return to his and our God,
    not two or multiple God's;

    John 20:17:
    ''Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father.
    Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.''

    Jesus will sit at the right hand of God, not spirit person mentioned;

    Acts 7:55-56:
    ''But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God,
    and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.''

    "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

    Matthew 22:44:
    ''JEHOVAH said to my Lord, 'sit at my right hand until I place your enemies under your feet''

    Psalm 110:1:
    ''Yahweh says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet."

    God's spirit guides us;

    1 Corinthians 2:12:
    ''What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God,
    so that we may understand what God has freely given us.''


    Of course the Trinity doctrine existed before the council of Nicea, it originated
    from ancient empires with pagan beliefs! It originated with Egypt, then spread to
    Babylon, Greece and finally Rome, where Chrisianity got mixed up with it.

    2 Timothy 4:3:
    ''For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.''

    The mysteries, whatever may have been their origin, or for whatever purposes they were instituted, were definitely a corruption of the original worship of the One deity.
    Just as in ancient Egypt, Brahminism restricted the teaching of monotheism to the highest initiates alone. Jacolliot emphasizes this in his writing:

    • "The worship of the one God or Zeus unrevealed, reserved to the priests, was forbidden to the lower classes, but THREE TEMPLES DEDICATED TO THE THREE PERSONS OF THE TRIMOURTI, BRAHMA, VISHNU, SIVA, opened their doors to the adoration of the people, all of whom were allowed to select one of the THREE PERSONAGES OF THE TRINITY they would prefer to worship."
    Ancient Babylonians "distinctly acknowledged that there was One infinite and Almighty Creator, supreme over all."
    So you can see how at the first the people realized there was only One God. In early humanity, people recognized Him as the True God Jehovah, but soon some apostatized and called this One God by other names. They then began changing His attributes and holiness. They stopped worshipping the One God in truth, but still continued to believe in One God. It then became corrupted all the more when they began a creed requiring devotion to a "trinity" of the One God. Soon millions of gods crept into their religions and man was far removed from the original Monotheistic faith. This was amongst pagans.
     
  13. Spiritforce

    Spiritforce New Member

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    That's a leap. If a man sends his brother to another planet that doesn't change the fact they're both still human. Same with God.

    The Bible clearly says that IN THE BEGINNING, Jesus was already God (John chapter 1).
     
  14. Nathantaurus90

    Nathantaurus90 New Member

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    No, Stephen saw Jesus and God SEPARATELY in his vision in Acts 7:55''But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.''

    So where is the 'holy spirit person?' And clearly, they are TWO distinct beings, as Jesus stood at the right of Jehovah God.

    John 14:28

    New International Version (NIV)
    [sup]28 [/sup]“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

    So clearly, Jesus' will is NOT HIS OWN:

    Luke 22:42

    New International Version (NIV)
    [sup] [/sup]“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

    John 6:38:
    ''For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.''

    John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

    No one has seen Jehovah's face, but Jesus spoke and interacted with many
    during his time on Earth, so he differs from Almighty God YHWH;

    Exodus 33:20:
    ''But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

    John 1:18:
    ''No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side,(Jesus) has made him known.''

    So Jesus is at THE FATHER'S SIDE

    Luke 2:49
    '"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?"

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6:
    ''For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    So there is ONE Father, AND JESUS, who all things were made.

    1 Peter 1:3

    Praise to God for a Living Hope
    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,''

    The Father of our Lord Jesus

    This next translation of Jehovah's name is taken out to make it appear
    that Jesus is talking to himself, but instead GOD is talking to Christ,
    So they are not one;
    Psalm 110:1:
    ''Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.''

    NOT 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD'' So clearly, A separate being was talking to Jesus. Why
    would jesus say that to himself?

    Hebrews 1:3

    New International Version (NIV)
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

    Again Jesus sits at the right hand of Almighty God.

    Anyway, I shall leave this post now, I'm aware that the debate over Trinitarian/Nontrinitarian has been a long one.
    And it's a very sensitive issue in regards to modern Christianity.


    John 8:32[sup] [/sup]Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    John 17:17:
    ''Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.''

    At the top of last page, comment meant that
    the Father sent Jesus

    John 20:22:
    ''Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
     
  15. Groundzero

    Groundzero Not Afraid To Stand

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    You know, none of these guys are mentioned in the Bible. I would have thought that as Christians, our base would have been the Bible, not the statements of mortal men.

    Verbatim: "Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith."

    So, do you really want to post the OFFICIAL creed for the Trinity? Cause I would hate to try to back that up with scripture.

    Is there a reason you didn't respond to my post? or are those Scriptures way too volatile for you?
    Would you like to know the newsflash of the day? God didn't send someone else to save the world - he came himself.

    Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    Who gave himself for humanity? JESUS! Jesus is not just a man. He is the almighty God.

    As for Jesus not being almighty, how do you explain this:
    Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
     
  16. JoeinArkansas

    JoeinArkansas New Member

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    Dear Veteran,
    There are many scriptures that speak of the creation of Jesus. Here are a few:


    Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


    Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    2Cor 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;


    2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.


    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


    Eph 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


    Jesus was created first and then through Jesus, the Father created every thing else in His creation. If one is said to be a son, then the son must have a beginning because the Father by necessity came first.

    It can be said that Jesus is mankind's God and father and that is true. It is also true that the Father is Jesus' God and father. Jesus came from the Father. He was made righteous by the Father and He even learned obedience.

    Heb 5:8-10 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

    Just as we must learn obedience, so did Christ learn obedience at some point in the past. Jesus was MADE perfect by the Father. He had a beginning and a growth process.

    The doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine of man and is not of scripture. The Holy Spirit is not a separate person or God. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father that the Father gave in full measure to Christ who in turn will someday give in full measure to all of mankind. At the present, for those who are blessed, we only have an earnest (small downpayment) of the Father's Spirit . Someday, we will be given the full measure of His Spirit and we will be like Christ. We will all be the offspring of God the Father, created through His Son Jesus. After all, that is our purpose for being created; to be made in His image. God's plan of creation is for the purpose of producing offspring, fully made in His image, guided by His Spirit which will indwell us. By God's Spirit, we will be one with God, just as Christ has been made one with the Father by the Father's Spirit. The indwelling Holy Spirit is what makes us one with the Father and is what makes us His children. Someday it will be possible to say that "when you see Veteran, you see the Father" just as scripture speaks of Christ being the visible image of the Father. Of course, we are a long way from that point, but by the certainty of God's word, it will happen.

    Finally, it is correct to say that Jesus is God because He is our God. But we must keep in mind that Jesus too, has a God (the Father). God is a title and not a name. Scripture even says that we too will be gods someday.

    Joe
     
  17. us2are1

    us2are1 Son Of Man

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    Amen JoeinArkansas

    God is Spirit He was the Spirit in Christ and everywhere else at the same time. Christ's body and flesh were created. Born of a virgin birth. Before that The same Spirit walked this earth as Melchisedec.

    Colossians 1
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation;




    .
     
  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Jesus Christ is the "express image of His person" is what Hebrews 1:3 states. That does not mean The Christ was ever... created in that sense.


    Isa 44:6
    6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and His redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God.
    (KJV)

    Just as God said in Our image per Gen.1, that includes Christ Jesus in The Godhead, for it is in the plural sense.

    In Rev.22:13 Jesus referred to Himself as the Alpha and Omega, which is from that Isaiah 44:6 declaration. In the Rev.1:11 example, it's pointing directly to Christ Jesus. In the Rev.21:6 example, it's pointing to both The Father and The Son.

    In Isaiah 9:6, Christ is declared as "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father".

    Thus assigning The Christ as a creation is Biblically wrong.


    But The Christ born through woman's flesh as Jesus Christ, that's a different matter, for His flesh body was... a creation through woman's womb, but still, not a creation of His Spirit. God put on a temporal shell when born through woman's womb in order to defeat the devil by death on the cross. That's why Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God; it's about His coming in the flesh to die on the cross, not some supposed change of His status in The Godhead.
     
  19. Nathantaurus90

    Nathantaurus90 New Member

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    Groundzero, as you can see in my earlier posts, I have used many scriptures for my beliefs.



    The three branches of the Catholic Church that grew out of the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, are the Eastern orthodox Greek Catholic Church, The Roman Catholic Church, and Protestant Catholic Churches. The one identifying doctrine that makes all of these Catholic, is the mystery of the trinity doctrine and trinity baptism. This is the cult captivity of millions. The difference between the true Church that began at Jerusalem and the Catholic Nico-Latins is the Oneness Monarchian Message.
    Few realize that the trinity doctrine that was adopted at the Council of Nicaea and thereafter molded into several Creeds (click creeds to go read), descends from Mystery Babylon via Greek philosophy in Plato's theories, and from Jewish Gnosticism, not from the Bible. Yet the Catholics all teach, that if a person does not believe in the trinity doctrine of Mystery Babylon, that person can not be saved. According to them, you and I can not be saved unless we believe Greek philosophy and Jewish Gnosticism that has reinterpreted God different from how God identified himself. This is wrong. Jesus did not ordain philosophers or Gnostic mystics, he ordained Apostles to be the authorities of Church doctrine. One great difference between the Arians, the Trinity-arians, Greek Plato philosophy, Mystery Babylon, and the true Apostolic Christians, is the Oneness Monarchian Message.
    All Pagan religions from the time of Babylon, have adopted in one form or another a trinity doctrine or a triad or trinity of gods. In Babylon it was Nimrod, Semiramas, and Tammuz; In Egypt it was Osiris, Isis, and Horus; within Israel pagan gnosticism it was Kether, Hokhmah, and Binah; In Plato's philosophy it was the Unknown Father, Nous/Logos, and the world soul. But in Old Testament Judaism there was only One God, a numerical ONE. The difference between paganism and God's people has always been the Oneness Monarchian Message reinforced by the First Commandment that prohibits any theory of a plurality.
    In our study, we will use a few verses to give a flavor of the One God message, and then give a lot of quotes concerning the trinity message. The true Apostolic Church rejects all the decrees and creeds of the Councils. For this reason we reject the trinity doctrine because it is not in the Bible but in the Creeds of the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Our Creed of One God is plainly in the Bible, the Oneness Message.

    What God Says About His Oneness:

    EXO 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    ISA 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
    ISA 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
    ISA 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
    ISA 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? no, there is no God; I know not any.
    REV 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian" (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, Trinity, p 47).

    "The Old Testament tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a triune God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a trinity within the Godhead. Even to see in the Old Testament, suggestions or fore-shadowings or veiled signs of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers. The New Testament writers give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead [The Triune God, by Edmund Fortman, Jesuit].
    "Neither the word trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament" [The New Encyclopedia Britannica]."

    Mark 16:19:
    ''After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.''

    If Jesus was almighty God, how can he sit at the RIGHT HAND OF GOD? This scripture
    wouldn't make any sense if Jesus was in fact almighty God.

    "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it ... From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity" (The Story of Civilization, Caesar and Christ, Will Durant, Part III, 1944, p. 595).

    2 Timothy 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

    Mark 7:8:
    ''You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
    "It was at this stage that Constantine made his momentous suggestion. Might not the relationship of Son to Father be expressed by the term homoousios ("of the same substance" ). Its use, however, by the Sabellian bishops of Libya had been condemned by Dionysius of Alexandria in the 260s, and, in a different sense, its use by Paul of Samosata bad been condemned by the Council of Antioch in 268. It was thus a "loaded" word as well as being unscriptural. Why Constantine put it forward we do not know. The possibility is that once again he was prompted by Hosius, and he may have been using it as a "translation" of the traditional view held in the West, that the Trinity was composed of "Three Persons in one substance," without inquiring further into the meaning of these terms. The Emperor bad spoken, and no one dared touch the creed during his lifetime. The great majority of the Eastern bishops found themselves in a false position"

    And yes Groundzero, the Trinity belief was around before Constantine and the
    council of nicea, it originited from empires with false beliefs;


    [size="+2"]Ancient Babylonian Triad, Truine, Trinity [/size]
    Babylon is the place of origin of all False Doctrine and the Trinity
    The three main Gods over all the other Gods & Goddesses

    an example of how the trinity concept was engrafted into the Catholic Church and other branches Trinity practice. The Hindu symbolism is just one of many pagan idols these churches have used to allow the trinity concept. Remember at the Roman Council of Nicea many of the bishops in attendance practiced paganism and eastern mysticism in their own states, which at the time were under Roman law. If we look deeper into this issue we will find many more symbols the pagan trinity nations conceived, and we can further prove how they were engrafted into the Modern Trinity Church Dogma, starting at Rome. Eastern mysticism, hinduism, kabbalism Gnosticism, Talmudism, all these practices and beliefs have made the Revelation of the end time Anti-Christ Spirit that much more observant in our world today. It is the Trinity spirit and concept which maketh war with truth, infiltrating the New Testament Age, thereby becoming the Daughter of the Babylonian Whore in Spirit:

    In conclusion this author would like to make one point clear. Tritheistic Worship, as we know today, all started with Israel, who, in Bablylonian captivity, allowed the teachings and practices of Nimrod to be observed, thereby turning against the God of Israel. The Old Testament proves this time and time again. From these practices we find the birth of Kabbalism, then Mysticism, Hinduism, Islam, Egyptian Mysticism, Gnosticism. Down it traveled the lineages until it reached Rome at the Nicene Council of 325 A.D. From that point in time, the Babylonian Trinity concept entered the New Testament age and has become the most cunning heresy in the churches who claim Jesus is God today. This is why we have "denominations" in the church today.
     
  20. Groundzero

    Groundzero Not Afraid To Stand

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    I don't argue the Oneness of God. I believe that with all my heart, but I have posted Scriptures, stating the SUPREME DEITY of Jesus, and yet you have not answered them. I don't believe in the Trinity. But I do believe that Jesus is the supreme deity.
     
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