Is Jesus God?

[Stan]

So, you deny that the Trinity is together AND separate then? Why didn't you just say you kicked all the creeds out the window, save us both some time. None of your vss contradict what I said, but you aren't reading what I said just what you wish to see.

I addressed your comment with scripture, something your never seem to be able to do. If someone says it's black you say it's white, and vice-versa.
I must say you are consistently combative no matter what forum site you are on. I shouldn't be surprised. How many sites have you been booted from?

Stan, I find it disingenuous for someone to posture as much as you do in a forum. I don't put forth any pious facade, I deny piosity. There is a long post of the things I am not around here somewhere.

Who and what you are all about is duly noted in your user name. I'm sure you will make it to most peoples Ignore List on this site as well, as you have on others.

So you can try to repackage and redefine me all you want, but until you figure out what I said and stop burning strawmen, you hold no value to me.

I've got you all figured out XP, and the only strawman that is burning is you.

 

[Groundzero]

Relax Stan.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I addressed your comment with scripture, something your never seem to be able to do.

I've yet to make a statement on here not riddled with scripture, except for a couple of obvious snide har hars.... If you don't recognize the scripture without a cut and paste, that's more on you than me. Sorry. If we have a crayola font, I'll try to help you out some?

The problem is, I can say you must be an emotional wreck to be a good Xian, and reference the verse JESUS WEPT. You must be sad to be Christ like! I can make the argument with scripture, and that would be about as sound as many of the comments you have made, BUT YOU DID CUT N PASTE SCRIPTURE! :|

If someone says it's black you say it's white, and vice-versa.

If you say GOD demands the law be kept and I say no, you will gripe, I get it. I offer a contrast, and everytime I do I give a reason, UNLESS I ask a question to follow up on. Without the contrast you don't HAVE a conversation. Were you under the impression that this was just a get in a circle and pat each other on the back and agree forum? I missed that in the by laws.

If someone not agreeing with you really disturbs you, you should know that is ONE of the symptoms for many issues.

I must say you are consistently combative no matter what forum site you are on.

So, disagreeing with you is combative? I make an argument, I stick to my arguments, an argument is made to be worked through and a solution found. If you don't like that and people MUST AGREE WITH YOU or else you feel attacked, perhaps you might be more accurately placed as a sunday school teacher where it's lecture and not discussion?

I shouldn't be surprised. How many sites have you been booted from?

Nearly always I tell them to ban me because they allow someone like you to NOT answer arguments, but make it personal. And when someone like you is supported by the authorities, it's simply not a place I need to be nor want to be. It's funny, if you go through the posts you have made on here and that I have made on here, I"m not the combative one, Mr. Projection.

See, I don't care if you agree with me. YOU DEPEND ON IT. I put my interest in the scripture and the arguments/reasoning. YOU IN THE ATTABOYS. We are fundamentally different. And you put the mental in fundamental. (sorry, that was just sitting there begging to be said.. I hadda do it.)

Who and what you are all about is duly noted in your user name.

Yes it is. I defend Christ. I fight for Christ. I hold to HIS WORD and defend it, screw the consequences. Where as YOU are here to get pats on the back and make people agree with you. I like where I'm at with my name and my relationship with God. My relationship doesn't make me hate and attack people who disagree with me.

I'm sure you will make it to most peoples Ignore List on this site as well, as you have on others.

So you are a hacker to see who ignores who? Interesting. hehe. Stan you are an emotionally needy wreck. I feel very sorry for the state you are in. I'm sorry I antagonize and threaten you with Biblical arguments you can't follow or don't agree with.

I've got you all figured out XP, and the only strawman that is burning is you.

Sniff sniff. You hurt my feelings.

So let's see. You make a whole post personally attacking me, rather than dealing with the arguments, and you claim I'm the combative one.

I get it.

You are Fundagelical, abortion clinic bombing, westboror baptist church attending Xian and I don't meet your standards.

You are right.
I don't. And I don't care to.

Now if you are done, will you go back to the arguments? If you need me to give you the addresses to the biblical references just ask. All this drama isn't necessary.

 

[Stan]

Relax Stan.

Like I said, I am very relaxed. B)

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Like I said, I am very relaxed. B)

Easy to stay relaxed as long as you don't face the arguments, just attack personally. I had a cousin that would always tell us how sane he was. But they still only let us visit him on weekends.

 

[FlamingZword]

The trinity is an error of biblical interpretation.
The bible never even says the word "trinity"

It is only those without understanding and wisdom that see a trinity in the Bible.

Sincerely
www.one-lord.org

 

[lforrest]

Hello FlamingZword,

You may want to checkout this topic about the Trinity http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/19981-defending-the-trinity/?hl=%20defending%20%20trinity

 

[Born_Again]

Why skepticism about the trinity all of sudden? I was raised Lutheran, so I know the concept all too well.

The trinity is an error of biblical interpretation.
The bible never even says the word "trinity"

It is only those without understanding and wisdom that see a trinity in the Bible.

Sincerely
www.one-lord.org

So can you post a reason for the contrary other than "those without understanding and wisdom"? Without quoting scripture, what is your reasoning for this belief?

 

[pom2014]

Well Polycarp was a binitarian, as well as many early Christian fathers.

But I'll rely on revelation from the Holy Spirit over Sola Scriptura.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

Hebrews 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Yes and no
Yes his is a God
No he is not God Almighty.
The son has a God.
Jesus said in different places that God was greater than him and he was a servant to him who sent him.

Hebrews 5:7
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears
unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

 

[OzSpen]

I and my Father are ONE... John 10:30... but let's read on...

30 " I and the Father are one."
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good
works from the Father ; for which of them are you
stoning Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do
not stone You, but for blasphemy ; and because You,
being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

After confessing that He and the Father were one and not two, if Jesus
wasn't the Father they had every right to stone him. We can pick up the
stones also on this forum and deny His Deity if we like, but I think we
should ask God to reveal Himself to us before we make the same mistake
they made.

Logabe

Logabe,

Jesus is not the Father. He is the Son. To say that 'I and the Father are One' is not synonymous with 'I and the Father are the Same'. The Son and the Father are 2 persons of the Trinity.

 

[Guestman]

It is often said that "the apple does not fall far from the tree", meaning that we are often molded by our family or environment. Our views are many times formed by what our parents or grandparents or friends believe, or church teaches, accepting without question what is considered as "truth", failing to do any sort of serious research.


The churches have taught that the Trinity is "doctrine" and those who do not accept it are "heretics". Caught in the middle of this crossfire is the Bible. What does the Bible teach regarding God, Jesus and the holy spirit ? And here is a clue as to how to find the correct answer, that a person has to be like "young children" ("babes", KJV), humble, teachable, reasonable.(Matt 11:25; Phil 4:5)


When a person is a "dyed in the wool" Baptist (as my mother was for a while), for example, they have already shut the door to reasoning on the Bible, unless they are willing to use their faculty of reason rather than stubbornness. But just as a juror must not be biased or prejudiced in order to be selected for a court trial, so likewise in reading the Bible. These ones must be serious in searching for what is the "truth" rather than allowing hearsay or other "views" to determine his stance.


Here are some details that point to who God, Jesus and what the holy spirit is. For instance, at John 4, Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that "you worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth."(John 4:22, 24)


What can be gleaned from Jesus words here ? One that Jesus worships the Father just as other Jews and second, that Jesus said the Father alone was to be worshipped and third that "God is a Spirit", not flesh and blood. Hence, how could Jesus be God and yet worship God ?


Remember, those who allow reasonableness and child-like humility to dictate rather than stubbornness are able to see this more clearly. Just as a juror has to weigh evidence to determine a person's guilt or innocence, so likewise a person who wants to find what is the "truth". One who is hasty because of having a predetermined or unalterable view without carefully considering the evidence will "end up with loss".(Prov 21:5, Common English Bible)


Here is a question to give solemn thought to: If Jesus was equal to God, why did he refer to God as his Father and not as his brother ? Brothers are equal within a household, but a father and son are not. Could Jesus be said to be perfect, without sin if he used family connections that were not accurate ?


And here is another thought to mull over. If God, Jesus and the holy spirit were part of a "Godhead", why is the pronoun "he" (or "I") used instead of the pronoun "them" (or "they") when speaking of God ? For example, at Isaiah 42:8, it says: "I (not we) am Jehovah, That is my (not our) name."


Or at Genesis 2:2, it says: "And by the seventh day God had completed the work that he (not them) had been doing, and he (not them) began to rest on the seventh day from all his (not their) that he (not them) had been doing." And this is consistent throughout the Bible.


At Deuteronomy 6:4, Moses said to the nation of Israel: "Listen, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah". Why did Moses tell this to the Israelites ? Because the land of Egypt from they had come out of some 40 years earlier was a nation that had trinitarian gods, such as the popular triad of Osiris, Isis and Horus. In fact, in the tomb of Thutmose III was found the names of some 740 of Egypt's gods.


So, in order for the nation of Israel to accurately know who God was, they had to remove from their thoughts that God is composed of a trinity and realize that God is "one Jehovah", not three Jehovah. And then there is Jesus words to Mary: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."(John 20:17)


If the "apple does not fall far from the tree", then these ones will discount the evidence and stick with the status quo of the Trinity, while a few will reason on the evidence to see that when Jesus said he was the Son, he meant just that.(see John 5:22)

 

[justaname]

It is often said that "the apple does not fall far from the tree", meaning that we are often molded by our family or environment. Our views are many times formed by what our parents or grandparents or friends believe, or church teaches, accepting without question what is considered as "truth", failing to do any sort of serious research.

The churches have taught that the Trinity is "doctrine" and those who do not accept it are "heretics". Caught in the middle of this crossfire is the Bible. What does the Bible teach regarding God, Jesus and the holy spirit ? And here is a clue as to how to find the correct answer, that a person has to be like "young children" ("babes", KJV), humble, teachable, reasonable.(Matt 11:25; Phil 4:5)

When a person is a "dyed in the wool" Baptist (as my mother was for a while), for example, they have already shut the door to reasoning on the Bible, unless they are willing to use their faculty of reason rather than stubbornness. But just as a juror must not be biased or prejudiced in order to be selected for a court trial, so likewise in reading the Bible. These ones must be serious in searching for what is the "truth" rather than allowing hearsay or other "views" to determine his stance.

Here are some details that point to who God, Jesus and what the holy spirit is. For instance, at John 4, Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that "you worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth."(John 4:22, 24)

What can be gleaned from Jesus words here ? One that Jesus worships the Father just as other Jews and second, that Jesus said the Father alone was to be worshipped and third that "God is a Spirit", not flesh and blood. Hence, how could Jesus be God and yet worship God ?

Remember, those who allow reasonableness and child-like humility to dictate rather than stubbornness are able to see this more clearly. Just as a juror has to weigh evidence to determine a person's guilt or innocence, so likewise a person who wants to find what is the "truth". One who is hasty because of having a predetermined or unalterable view without carefully considering the evidence will "end up with loss".(Prov 21:5, Common English Bible)

Here is a question to give solemn thought to: If Jesus was equal to God, why did he refer to God as his Father and not as his brother ? Brothers are equal within a household, but a father and son are not. Could Jesus be said to be perfect, without sin if he used family connections that were not accurate ?

And here is another thought to mull over. If God, Jesus and the holy spirit were part of a "Godhead", why is the pronoun "he" (or "I") used instead of the pronoun "them" (or "they") when speaking of God ? For example, at Isaiah 42:8, it says: "I (not we) am Jehovah, That is my (not our) name."

Or at Genesis 2:2, it says: "And by the seventh day God had completed the work that he (not them) had been doing, and he (not them) began to rest on the seventh day from all his (not their) that he (not them) had been doing." And this is consistent throughout the Bible.

At Deuteronomy 6:4, Moses said to the nation of Israel: "Listen, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah". Why did Moses tell this to the Israelites ? Because the land of Egypt from they had come out of some 40 years earlier was a nation that had trinitarian gods, such as the popular triad of Osiris, Isis and Horus. In fact, in the tomb of Thutmose III was found the names of some 740 of Egypt's gods.

So, in order for the nation of Israel to accurately know who God was, they had to remove from their thoughts that God is composed of a trinity and realize that God is "one Jehovah", not three Jehovah. And then there is Jesus words to Mary: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."(John 20:17)

If the "apple does not fall far from the tree", then these ones will discount the evidence and stick with the status quo of the Trinity, while a few will reason on the evidence to see that when Jesus said he was the Son, he meant just that.(see John 5:22)

Yet Jesus accepted worship without rebuking those who worshipped Him.
No one disagrees that Jesus is the Son, yet He does tell Thomas that if you had seen Him (Jesus) you have seen the Father.

What you miss is the dual nature of Christ, fully divine fully human. Born of God and a woman.

Jesus is the Logos. The concept of Logos throughout Greek language and culture is divinity. Without question God's word in the Jewish culture is divine and represents God Himself, hence the Logos became flesh.

The concept of subordination Jesus has with Father is seen in the garden of Gethsemane. The Logos can only do as the Father, for they are intrinsically united eternally. Only God is eternal.

Truly from the manuscripts we have John says "the Logos is God"...not a god. It is true, the apple does not fall far from the tree...your indoctrination has misguided you from seeing the perversion of the Scriptures and the truth about God and His Logos.

 

[DogLady19]

Logabe,

Jesus is not the Father. He is the Son. To say that 'I and the Father are One' is not synonymous with 'I and the Father are the Same'. The Son and the Father are 2 persons of the Trinity.

It is quite obvious in this passage that Jesus claimed to be God. If he wasn't God, then he was a liar, and therefore a sinner and cannot be our savior.

 

[OzSpen]

It is quite obvious in this passage that Jesus claimed to be God. If he wasn't God, then he was a liar, and therefore a sinner and cannot be our savior.

That is what I was trying to say, but in different words. In context, Jesus was affirming his Deity. He and the Father are members of the one true Godhead, the Trinity. The role of the Father is different to that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, but all three are persons (members) of the one true God.

Oz

 

[Doug_E_Fresh]

Just my two cents, but I think that we need to remember what the trinity is trying to describe before we ask is Jesus God?

God is one What, and three Whos.

All three persons are able to coexist simultaneously, and in harmony with each other at the same time, since before time. That's why it's mind blowing.

Is Jesus the same person as God? No. Is Jesus the same "What" as God? Yes.
It just depends on how you're trying to ask the question in the poll (which as demonstrated can seem poorly worded).

Muslims have a hard time with this question as well. It's a great topic.

 

[Born_Again]

I would have to agree, the poll question is poorly worded and a bit loaded, if you ask me. The question surely demands clarification.

 

[DogLady19]

That is what I was trying to say, but in different words. In context, Jesus was affirming his Deity. He and the Father are members of the one true Godhead, the Trinity. The role of the Father is different to that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, but all three are persons (members) of the one true God.

Oz

Indeed... and when Jesus said, "I and the Father are One" his audience most assuredly knew that He was saying He is God. That's why they immediately picked up rocks to stone Him to death (the penalty for blasphemy)

I would have to agree, the poll question is poorly worded and a bit loaded, if you ask me. The question surely demands clarification.

"Is Jesus God?" I had no problem answering that question. The question is clear and my answer is simple: YES

What would you prefer it to have asked?

Another clear question would be: Is the Holy Spirit God?

 

[ATP]

Jesus is not the Father, rather Jesus is deity of the Father. They are one in deity but not person.

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus is not the Father, rather Jesus is deity of the Father. They are one in deity but not person.

ATP,

I understand that Scripture teaches that:

• The Father is God (Jn 6:27; Rm 1:7; Gal 1:1, 3, etc);
• Jesus, the Son, is God (Mt 16:15; 22:41-46; Mk 12:35-37; Lk 20:41-44);
• The Holy Spirit is God (Heb 9:14; 1 Cor 2:10-11; Jn 14:26; 16:12-13).

However, I don't understand your language that 'Jesus is deity of the Father'. In your understanding, are you saying that Jesus have a deity derived from the Father - 'deity of the Father'?