Wow, you really do have a chip on your shoulder don't you? You posted to me first about not replying.
Where does it say in the bible about 'christ not knowing he was God?'
They are clearly separate beings,
as Jesus stated that he IS RETURNING TO HIS GOD!
John 20:17:
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Where does it say in the bible that there are three gods?
Where does it say in the bible that Jesus had a 'dual nature of a multiple Gods/deities?
The idea of the Trinity is not one that is found in the Bible. Far from being part of the same being, God and Christ are quite separate. Consider the following verse, 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". A mediator is a go-between. For Christ to mediate between God and men he must be separate from God, just as he is separate from the individual people he mediates for; if Christ was part of God then this verse would be nonsense.
1 Corinthians 8:6 also speaks plainly of God and Christ as separate: "But to us there is but one God, the Father, ... and one Lord Jesus Christ". If God the Father and Christ were part of the one being, why would these words have been written? If they were part of the Trinity, why is there no reference to the Holy Spirit here? The only reasonable answer is that God, the Father is a totally separate being from Jesus Christ.
There are two passages from the New Testament that are often used to prove the Trinity, John 1 and Luke 1:35. In reality, both of these show that the Trinity does not exist.
John 1:18 plainly states that "No man hath seen God at any time". It does not say " No man hath seen God the Father" at any time, but that no man has seen GOD at any time. It is obvious from the Gospels that people saw Jesus: therefore Jesus cannot be God, or any part of God. The verse goes on to say "the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Some other translations of this passage, which are based on other Greek manuscripts, have "the only begotten God" where the KJV has "only begotten Son". The Greek words for 'son' and 'god' in this context are very similar, and it seems likely that 'son' becoming 'god' was a simple slip of the pen when the early manuscripts were copied. The phrase 'only begotten God' is also at odds with the doctrine of the Trinity. Something that is begotten has a definite beginning and a cornerstone of the Trinity is that 'God the Son' has always existed.
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35) Let us suppose that this passage does speak of the Trinity. It would seem then that the Holy Spirit is the Father of Christ, which would give a trinity of "God the Father & Holy Spirit, God the Son, and God the Redundant"! The more logical interpretation of this passage is that the Holy Spirit is simply the power of God.
Christ stands out in the Bible as being a sinless individual; this is a truly great achievement for a man. Sin is simply acting contrary to the will of God - therefore for Christ's sinlessness to be an achievement he must not be part of God.
Your argument is not convincing, on all the scriptures you just state
'christ did not know his dual nature' 'he didn't know he was god then'
The apostle Paul was a servant to Christ and God;
Titus 1:1:
''Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge
of the truth that leads to godliness--''
During the Transfiguration of Jesus, God directly spoke and announced
that he was pleased with Jesus and to listen to him. So how can God be in Jesus's
body if God spoke from the Heaven?
Matthew 17:1-9:
''After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said,
“This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Another passage about witnessing of Jesus' transfiguration,
note that it says he 'received glory' from the Father;
2 Peter 1:16-18:
''For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power,
but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory,
saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”We ourselves heard this voice that
came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.''
John 14:10:
''Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather,
it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.''
John 17:11:
''I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you.
Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.''
Jesus prayed to God, not himself;
Luke 22:41:
''He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed,''
Jesus is mentioned as God's servant in Acts;
Acts 4:30:
''Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus."
Acts 3:13:
''The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.
You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.''
Jesus indicated his Father's superiority when he said;
Luke 4:18:
''The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,''
Jesus also said: "Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit." (Luke 23:46)
If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?
After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. If he were God, then
Habakkuk 1:12 is wrong when it says: "O my God, my Holy One, you do not die."
But the Bible says that Jesus did die and was unconscious in the tomb. And who resurrected Jesus from the dead?
If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death
would not have paid the ransom price for Adam's sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death.
So it was "God who resurrected Jesus by loosing the pangs of death." (Acts 2:24)
The superior, God Almighty, raised the lesser, his servant Jesus, from the dead.
Paul wrote that Jesus was exhalted, if he was God, why would he need to
be exhalted to a higher position?
Philippians 2:9:
''Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,''
Paul also said that Christ entered "heaven itself, so that he could appear in the
actual presence of God on our behalf." (Hebrews 9:24,)
If you appear in someone else's presence,
how can you be that person? You cannot. You must be different and separate.
2 John 1:9:
''Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.''
2 Corinthians 1:3:
''Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,''
God prepared Jesus for Earth;
Hebrews 10:5:
''Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;''
Jehovah has given Jesus the authority to judge;
John 5:22:
''Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,''
A man named Simeon was told that he would see Jehovah's Messiah, so
they are distinct individuals;
Luke 2:25-26:
''Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
And it was told him by The Spirit of Holiness that he would not see death until he would see The Messiah of THE LORD JEHOVAH.''
Luke 2:22:
''After the days required by Moses' Teachings to make a mother clean had passed, Joseph and Mary went to Jerusalem.
They took Jesus to present him to the Lord.''
Acts 5:29-32:
''Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!
The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead —whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.''
1 Thessalonians 4:14:
''We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.''
John 6:40:
''For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
I probably won't reply to any more posts, you obviuosly have a personal problem with others not believing in
the Trinity.
Your argument consists of 'dual nature' babble, I have never read a scripture where Jesus says he
is of 'dual nature' as you say.
Where does it say in the bible that there are three gods?
The old testemant repeatedly claims that God almighy is alone, not
part of a triad of unities;
Isaiah 44:6:
''Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.''
We must go through Yahweh's son Jesus in order to get to him, as Jesus stated
in John 14:6;
'' Jesus answered 'I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes through the Father except through me.''
- Looking at the context of the entire gospel of John, Jesus consistently draws a separation between himself and God. He refers to God as "Father" and shows that he is subordinate to the Father (John 14:28) and was sent at his Father's direction (John 3:16; 17:3).
- Looking at the context of all four gospels, Jesus again consistently shows that he is does not believe himself to be God. For example, Luke 22:42 Christ prays in the Garden for, not his will to be done, but the Father's. Mark 15:34, he cries out "My God, my God, what have you forsaken me?" Matthew 28:18, Jesus tells his disciples that authority had been given him in heaven and on earth. If Jesus knew he was God, none of these would make sense.
Looking at the context of the New Testament, the early Christians did not believe Jesus to be God. The most prolific writer, the Apostle Paul, consistently writes about Jesus as the
Son of God ... not God himself. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:24: "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." (
KJV) - in other words Christ hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, a transaction between two separate people. At Colossians 1:15, Paul refers to Christ as the first-born of all creation. This harmonizes with the concept of Christ Jesus (the Son of God) and God the Father.
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]An Examination of Isaiah 9:6[/background]
Let us first of all consider the fact that the opening phrase of Isaiah 9:6 states:
“For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given…”
Please ask yourself the following question:
“Since the verse says ‘a Son is given,’ who did the giving?”
Someone did the giving, and someone was given. Although this is easily overlooked, it is very revealing and sets the tone for the remainder of the verse.
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]One of the most common verses that are brought up by Christians to prove that JESUS is GOD or in other words they try to prove that Jesus is His Own Father, by saying that HE (JESUS) IS THE ONE AND ONLY WISE GOD is that of Isaiah 9:6. In fact this verse is supposedly one of the strongest evidences that Jesus is God.[/background]
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]So with that said let us see what Isaiah 9:6 says:[/background]
[background=rgb(243,243,243)][sup]6 [/sup]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. [/background]
In the ensuing list of epithets given to the Son, we do not run into a perceived problem until we reach “The mighty El.” Therefore, let us address this.
Being called El or Elohim (or mighty) is not limited to Yahweh in Scripture. For example, see Psalm 82, esp. v 6, where it is used in reference to judges. Thus, we see that elohim can be used of people who are in mighty positions of authority, but that doesn’t make them the Almighty. Yahshua too, can be considered a mighty one, an El.
In the end, Isaiah 9:6 can be taken in harmony with the rest of the overwhelming* amount of verses proving that Yahweh is the Almighty and Yahshua is His Son. There is harmony here, but we have to be willing to lay down the pre-conceived notions that the Son is a second person in what is commonly called a “triune Godhead” or that He is the Father in a different mode (i.e., the Oneness doctrine).
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]So here we see a prophecy being made about the Messiah, the Messiah that is to come for the Israelite people. Now the Christian contends that Jesus is God because the Messiah is called the mighty God, hence that must mean he is God.[/background]
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]At face value it might seem that the Messiah is indeed called God, yet a careful examination of the verse shows that the text does NOT refer to Jesus as God. Rather when we do analyse the text, we find that the text has been mistranslated by the Trinitarians, something very common.[/background]
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]As we all know Isaiah was an Israelite prophet, and the book of Isaiah was written in Hebrew, therefore we should go to the Hebrew and see what the actual term of mighty God is in the Hebrew language.[/background]
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]When we do consult the Hebrew language we find that in Hebrew the term mighty God is as follow:[/background]
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]No Jew ever believed that the Messiah would be God, and no where in the context of Isaiah chapter 9 is such a doctrine taught. The context of Isaiah 9 is about the Messiah and what he will do, as the ministry of the Gospel:[/background]
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]The context illuminates great truth about the verse, and also shows that there is no justification for believing that it refers to the Trinity, but rather to God's appointed ruler. The opening verse of the chapter foretells a time when "there will be no more gloom for those in distress." All war and death will cease, and "every warrior's boot.will be destined for burning" (v. 5). How will this come to pass? The chapter goes on: "for to us a child is born and to us a son is given" (v. 6). There is no hint that this child will be "God," and reputable Trinitarian scholars will assert that the Jews of the Old Testament knew nothing of an "incarnation." For them, the Messiah was going to be a man anointed by God. He would start as a child, which of course Yahweh, their eternal God, could never be. And what a great ruler this man would grow to be: "the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero, Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace." Furthermore, "he will reign on David's throne (v. 7), which could never be said of God. God could never sit on David's throne. But God's Messiah, "the Son of David," could (Matt. 9:27, et al). Thus, a study of the verse in its context reveals that it does not refer to the Trinity at all, but to the Messiah, the son of David and the Son of God.[/background]
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]So therefore a more accurate translation of Isaiah 9:6 should call the Messiah a mighty hero, or the mighty Son of God and the Son of David (man), or a mighty god, god with a small g, which means a righteous servant or a mighty prophet. The Trinitarians have NO BASIS in translating ?el Gibbor as mighty GOD with a capital G.[/background]
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]So in conclusion Isaiah 9:6 proves nothing for a Trinitarian who believes in the divinity of Jesus. In fact I would say that Isaiah 9:6 is one of the WEAKEST arguments and position a Trinitarian can rely on.[/background]
[background=rgb(243,243,243)]Make no mistake, JESUS is DIVINE, but He is NOT His Father and GOD. Jesus is truly and literally the Son of God. Jesus was TWICE BORN, once in Heaven of the Spirit, prior to being born in the flesh in Bethlehem.[/background]
Conclusion
Isaiah 9:6 is wrapped up with the final epithet assigned unto this Son. He is also called “Prince of Peace.” This is yet another piece of evidence within this very verse that the Son is not the Father. A prince is the son of a Father.
Cp Acts 5:31 (Peter speaking)
Him [i.e., Yahshua] Yahweh has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
In the end, Isaiah 9:6 can be taken in harmony with the rest of the overwhelming* amount of verses proving that Yahweh is the Almighty and Yahshua is His Son. There is harmony here, but we have to be willing to lay down the pre-conceived notions that the Son is a second person in what is commonly called a “triune Godhead” or that He is the Father in a different mode (i.e., the Oneness doctrine).
[color=000000][color=660099]"Hear O Israel, YHVH is G-d, YHVH is ONE." (Deut 6:4) [/color] [/color]
[color=000000]Trinitarian Problem With Father Of Yeshua [/color]
[color=000000][color=660099]"Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:20 [/color][/color]
[color=000000]Who's the Father? The Father or the Ruach (Holy Spirit)? Are there *two* Fathers in the Trinity? [/color]
in prayer.
Some argue Yeshua prayed as an example for us, and not for Himself. It's true His prayers do teach us about the nature of Messiah and of G-d. But I cannot limit Yeshua's prayers as merely exemplary forms (as in The L-rd's Prayer in Matthew 6:9) since some of His prayers were prayed without an audience (as in the garden, Matthew 26:37-45).
[color="660099"]"ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI" - "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" [/color]
Why did Jesus cry out to Himself on the cross?
Matthew 27:46
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[sup][a][/sup] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[sup][b][/sup]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]"And the YHVH shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one YHVH, and his name one." Zechariah 14:9 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]To humans, jesus was like a god, as he performed many miracles.[/color][/color] but there
is a higher authority
[color="000000"][color="660099"]"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: .... And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he." Mark 12:29, 32 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]"Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." Romans 3:30 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]" One God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all." Ephesians 4:6 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]"For there is one God and one peacemaker between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Corinthians 8:6 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"][color="660099"]"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." James 2:19 [/color][/color]
[color="000000"]Don't trinitarians find it odd that not once does Scripture state: "There is one G-d consisting of three persons."? G-d is one and the trinity doctrine is in conflict with Scripture. [/color]
The Jewish view of the Trinity;
IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in a trinity. The Jewish idea of Gd is that Gd is One and Indivisible. Gd cannot be divided up into separate parts, where each part is unequal to each of the other parts, yet somehow they are one and the same. The Hebrew Scriptures describe Gd as an absolute One, but the Christian Scriptures describe Gd as divisible into three parts called a trinity. In the Christians' scriptures, Jesus at one point claims to have different knowledge than other parts of the Christian trinity. For example, Matthew 24:36, or Mark 13:32. In another verse, Jesus does not have the same power as other parts of the Christian trinity, for example, Luke 23:34. And in Matthew 26:42, Jesus' will is not the same as the will of the Father. Indeed, Jesus often contrasted himself with the Father, for example, in John 14:28, or Luke 18:19. Furthermore, Jesus supposedly said that the punishment for blaspheming against one part of the trinity is not the same punishment for blaspheming against another part of the trinity. In the Hebrew Scriptures, however, Gd is One, as we read in Deuteronomy 6:4, as well as in Isaiah 44:6, where Gd tells us,
'I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no Gd.' When Isaiah tells us that Gd said,
'I am the first,' it means that Gd has no father. When Isaiah tells us that Gd said,
'I am the last,' it means that Gd has no literal son, a divine piece of Gd. And when Isaiah tells us that Gd said,
'Besides me there is no Gd,' it means that Gd does not share being Gd with any other Gd, or demi-Gd, or semi-Gd, or persons, and there is no trinity.
In this verse, Jesus does not have the same power as other parts of the Christian trinity, for example, Luke 23:34, where he must ask the part which is called the Father to forgive, instead of doing it himself:
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [Luke 23:34]
And in Matthew 26:42 or Mark 14:36, Jesus' will is not the same as the will of the Father.
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. [Matthew 26:42]
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. [Mark 14:36]
Indeed, Jesus often contrasted himself with the Father or with Gd, for example, in John 14:28, or Luke 18:18-19:
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. [John 14:28]
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, Gd. [Luke 18:18-19]
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. [Matthew 12:32]
The parts of the trinity cannot be one and the same. They are separate, they have different strengths, different powers, different wills, different knowledge from each other, therefore the concept of the trinity is not monotheistic.
Why did the Christian community stop at the three of the trinity, when they could have also had more persons in the supposed compound unity of Gd? The reason is that the highest deities in the other religions of the area also came in threes:
Babylon had: [1] Anu [2] Bel and [3] Ena;
Egypt had: [1] Osiris [2] Horus and [3] Isis
India had: [1] Brahma [2] Vishnu and [3] Shiva;
Rome had: [1] Jupiter [2] Pluto and [3] Neptune;
Greece had: [1] Zeus [2] Hades and [3] Poseidon;
When Isaiah tells us that Gd said,
I am the first,' it means that Gd has no father. If Gd had a father, Isaiah would have quoted Gd's word as, 'I am the second.' When Isaiah tells us that Gd said,
'I am the last,' it means that Gd has no literal son. If Gd had a son, Isaiah would have told us that Gd said, 'I am the second-to-last.' And when Isaiah tells us that Gd said,
'Besides me there is no Gd,' it means that Gd does not share being Gd with any other Gd, or demi-Gd, or semi-Gd, or persons. If Gd shared or would later share Gd's Gd-ness with Jesus, Isaiah would have told us that Gd's words were, 'Besides me and the son that will come after me, there is no Gd.'
This is why Gd told us in the Ten Commandments, in Exodus 20:3,
'Thou shalt have no other gods before me.' Even if you think they are gods, you cannot have them before Gd. You do not pray to them in order to get to Gd, and you do not pray in their names.
Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips. [Psalm 16:4]
Christians may tell us, 'Behold Your Gd,' but the last time we heard something similar was in Exodus 32:4, when the ex-slaves pointed to the Golden Calf and said,
'Eileh elohecha -- these are your gods.'
I'm going to do more research on the Jews argument against 'three god's in one' belief, very interesting.
1) Mistranslation of the text John 1:1
In the "original" Greek manuscripts (Did the disciple John speak Greek?), "The Word" is only described as being "ton theos"(divine/a god) and not as being "ho theos" (
The Divine/
The God). A more faithful and correct translation of this verse would thus read:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was divine" (If you read the New World Translation of the Bible you will find exactly this wording).
Similarly, in "The New Testament, An American Translation" this verse is honestly presented as
"In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine."
The New Testament, An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173
And again in the dictionary of the Bible, under the heading of "God" we read
"Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.'"
2) Basic message of John:
Now that we have seen the correct translation of the verse of John 1:1, let us go a little further in our study of the intended meaning of this verse. This verse was taken from the "Gospel of John." The very best person to ask to explain what is meant by a given statement is the author of that statement himself. So let us ask "John" what is his mental picture of God and Jesus (pbuh) which he wishes to convey to us:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."
John 13:16.
So the author of John tells us that God is greater than Jesus. If the author of this Gospel did indeed wish us to understand that Jesus and God are "one and the same," then can someone be greater than himself? Similarly,
"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
John 17:1.
If John meant to tell us that "Jesus and God are one and the same" then shall we understand from this verse that God is saying to Himself "Self, glorify me so that I may glorify myself"? Does this sound like this is the message of John?
"While I (Jesus) was with them in the world, I kept them in thy (God's) name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
John 17:12.
If the author of John wanted us to believe that Jesus and God are one person then are we to understand from this verse that God is saying to Himself "Self, while I was in the world I kept them in your name, self. Those who I gave to myself I have kept ..."? Is this what the author intended us to understand from his writings?
"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."
John 17:24.
Similarly, did the author intend us to interpret this as "Self, I will that they also whom I have given myself be with me where I am; that they my behold my glory which I have given myself, for I loved myself before the foundation of the world"?
So, we begin to see that in order to understand the writings of a given author, it is necessary to not take a single quotation from him in a vacuum and then interpret his whole message based upon that one sentence (and a badly mistranslated version of that sentence at that).