I think you KNOW what I said Barrd. It is a long standing tradition on this board to kick off anti Trinitarians, and IF brakelite is one, then yes, that would be my goal. You may want to check out the SoF of CB.
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I have been completely upfront right from my first post. I openly questioned the traditional trinity concept on the basis of certain Biblical facts regarding the relationship between the Father and His Son, Jesus. Far from hiding something, I was the one who opened the discussion!!! I find it fascinating that you, who being utterly unable to reconcile the contradiction of the 'eternality' of the Son and His being in fact, a literal Son which demands a beginning, you prefer to take the same route as the popes who cast anathemas upon those who disagreed with them rather than be honest and discuss the issue. Just as the popes, who had no standing armies of their own, nor the power to implement their ecclesiastical decisions, appealed to secular authorities to inflict punishment upon the "heretics", so now you threaten to appeal to the 'ruling authority' to inflict punishment upon me because I happen to disagree with a certain aspect of your theology. The parallels are delicious.StanJ said:
On top of that you charge me with "Arianism", yet don't even bother to read what it was that Arius taught....you thought it entailed a denial of the divinity of Christ...I suspect you didn't want to read it because it may have proved you wrong on that point.
You have a great deal to say regarding others' capacity for learning...you often have been critical of others because they didn't have a "teachable spirit", particularly when you were the one doing the teaching. And here you are suggesting I be removed from the board because my message offends you! You are a hypocrite Stan.
Thus far this discussion hasn't attracted any of the moderators so I presume that they are standing by watching proceedings. I am sure they would have intervened a long time ago if they suspected I was promoting doctrine that was anti-Christ, unchristian, heretical, or unbiblical. But what I have presented consistently is a Bible based message that upholds the relationship between Father God and His Son Jesus. My challenge was not hidden, not presented in language designed to confuse or subvert faith, but simply a challenge to honestly face the question...is Jesus a literal Son of the Father, or a metaphor? The implications are huge. If literal, there can be no traditional trinity. It is impossible. If metaphorical, then you can accept the trinity for all you are worth.
Man up Stan. What's it to be? Which one are you willing to discard? The literal Son, or the trinity? Your choice.
But I believe it dishonest to have me kicked from the discussion because you cant make a decision.
The animosity here is simply unbelievable.StanJ said:
Brakelite has not denied the Divinity of Christ. He is not anti Trinitarian, fapeetsakes...he questions the notion of co-equality.
So do I, if it comes to that. Does that make me, also, anti Trinitarian, Stan?
Shall we have our own little inquisition here on the Christianity Board? Is that what you really want, Stan?
You have been completely equivocal brakelite, NOT upfront. Couching your replies in the vernacular of the doctrine doesn't make anything CLEAR, and the issue is NOT the wording of the doctrine, but who the Bible shows us that Jesus IS. I have no problem understanding what the scripture says about the Son, and have given you tons of scripture to show that as such. The Son was/is the WORD made flesh. John 1 shows everything clearly about the WORD, and how He became flesh/incarnate in Jesus. There is nothing to reconcile seeing as you don't point out what you consider to be wrong with that. Do you accept everything in John 1?
Do you accept verses 1, 14, & 18? A simple direct question that only requires a one word answer.
I have no idea, but they WILL, if I decide this threads needs to be addressed. I was attracted by your support of Arius and your fallacious assertion that there were no writings from him because the RCC destroyed them all. You were answered directly by me brakelite, Jesus is the literal son, ONLY BEGOTTEN, of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit, just as scriptures says. IF you believe that, then why ask? That YOU personally fail to comprehend the mystery of the Godhead, would be nothing new, as since Arius, many have not understood. Jesus may be used in metaphorical sense throughout scripture, with such descriptions as LIGHT, ROCK, and BREAD, but that doesn't contradict WHO He actually is.
Then two are NOT mutually exclusive as you would TRY to make us believe brakelite, in fact they are synonymous with one another, as Is 9:6 prophesied. The choice is to believe God's word, or not, not equivocate about it and try to back away from your intentions. The only one who needs to MAN UP, would be you, IF you are a man?
If I was dishonest I would not have warned you, so convince me you are NOT anti-Trinitarian.
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People get banned for bad behavior, not for their beliefs.
Is it any wonder that those who deny the divinity of Christ can't avoid behaving in a way that gets them banned? Try as some wolves might they can't hide their fangs. Someone who is of the wrong spirit can hardly fake all the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
While it is tempting to jump the gun and assume that people with wrong beliefs will be a negative contribution, I think people should be judged by their actions.
Is it any wonder that those who deny the divinity of Christ can't avoid behaving in a way that gets them banned? Try as some wolves might they can't hide their fangs. Someone who is of the wrong spirit can hardly fake all the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
While it is tempting to jump the gun and assume that people with wrong beliefs will be a negative contribution, I think people should be judged by their actions.
Then stop contributing to it Barrd. There is NO question of co-equality...the scripture tell us it is FACT. Do you not believe that either?
Yes, if you don't believe that Jesus is co-equal with the father, it makes you anti-Trinitarian.
It's not an inquisition if the SoF states it as a ToS. You shouldn't play the martyr card so early on Barrd.
They will if YOU decide? Stan, no offense...but I think you are a bit out of line, here.StanJ said:
Calm down, son...it's not your responsibility to decide who is and who is not allowed to post here.
That's right daughter, but it IS my responsibility to report such as being against the SoF or ToS.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "co-equal", Stan.StanJ said:
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Now, no one is denying the Divinity of Christ at all. But Jesus Himself did say that the Father is greater than Him. In fact, there are a great many verses where Jesus defers to the authority of His father. This does not make Him somehow less Divine.
Jesus prayed that God might remove "this cup" from Him, but God did not do so. We see Jesus accepting God's will...
Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
It is a fact that Jesus defers to His Father's authority. Are they "co-equal"? Evidently, not entirely.
As I have said, I have always thought of myself as a "trinitarian" because I do believe in the Divinity of Christ, and I do believe in the Holy Spirit. I'm just not so sure I believe in them in the proper, Stan-approved way.
As I have said, I prefer the term "Godhead". I think it is closer to the truth...
If I am banned for that, it is obvious that I am in the wrong place to begin with...
I am glad you are here, Iforrest.lforrest said:
People do tend to drive a bit more carefully when they know there is a police car in the vicinity...
No one has denied the Divinity of Christ, Stan. Relax. There is a mod in the thread. If he sees a violation, I'm sure he is capable of handling it without your help.StanJ said:
Stan, remember the parable of the wheat and tares? You remind me of the sower's servants, who upon discovery of tares, went to their boss and asked, Master, master, can we rip the tares out please, please?
Jesus said it wasn't up to us to decide who is a tare or not. You do not know my heart, leave any judgement to Jesus...it is before Him I stand or fall.
You also remind me of the lawyers who wanted straight answers from Jesus simply to catch Him at His words to justify heir malignant hatred toward Him.
I am relieved that people are banned for bad behaviour...for it is a fact, (which I made clear from te beginning, that I do question the traditional concept of the trinity...co-equal, co-eternal persons. First, on the very basis of the Sonship of Jesus , second, on the fact of the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, which to my mind does not mean another separate being. God is Spirit...that part of Himself He shares with His Son, which in turn is shared with us. When Christ said I will not leave you comfortless, what did He add?....I will come to you! How clearer can He be? The first comforter was the Father, the other comforter is Christ Himself. Christ in us, the hope of glory. Now if that makes me anti-trintarian, so be it. What it does not make me is unChristian...heretical...or a denier of the divinity of Jesus.
As to my belief in Jesus being God. I have gone back and reread every post I made in this thread, and here following are the post numbers and the number of times in each post I proclaimed,unequivocably, that Jesus is God, is divine, is deity, or received from His Father all that the Father is...just like a natural born son.
Post 3...4 times
Post 18....3 times.
Post 26...2 times
Post 30....2 times.
Post 36...2 times.
Jesus said it wasn't up to us to decide who is a tare or not. You do not know my heart, leave any judgement to Jesus...it is before Him I stand or fall.
You also remind me of the lawyers who wanted straight answers from Jesus simply to catch Him at His words to justify heir malignant hatred toward Him.
I am relieved that people are banned for bad behaviour...for it is a fact, (which I made clear from te beginning, that I do question the traditional concept of the trinity...co-equal, co-eternal persons. First, on the very basis of the Sonship of Jesus , second, on the fact of the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, which to my mind does not mean another separate being. God is Spirit...that part of Himself He shares with His Son, which in turn is shared with us. When Christ said I will not leave you comfortless, what did He add?....I will come to you! How clearer can He be? The first comforter was the Father, the other comforter is Christ Himself. Christ in us, the hope of glory. Now if that makes me anti-trintarian, so be it. What it does not make me is unChristian...heretical...or a denier of the divinity of Jesus.
As to my belief in Jesus being God. I have gone back and reread every post I made in this thread, and here following are the post numbers and the number of times in each post I proclaimed,unequivocably, that Jesus is God, is divine, is deity, or received from His Father all that the Father is...just like a natural born son.
Post 3...4 times
Post 18....3 times.
Post 26...2 times
Post 30....2 times.
Post 36...2 times.
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I'm sticking with the statement made here.
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/20032-statement-on-the-trinity/
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/20032-statement-on-the-trinity/
NOT the issue again Barrd, which you seem to have a continual problem identifying? You should check out the United Pentecostal's doctrine to see that the Divinity of Jesus is NOT the problem, because they believe that and claim only HE is God. The issue is the Trinity.
I have no concern whatsoever with the mods doing their job.
That seems a perfectly reasonable statement Iforrest.lforrest said:
I especially like this:
"Anyone who denies the Trinity is in danger of losing his salvation, and anyone who tries to understand it is in danger of losing his mind."
I still think I'd be further ahead trying to explain Quantum Physics to my little Shih Tzu. He's a very intelligent dog...
EDIT:
This reminds me...I have a piece I did years ago on the Trinity. Just for the heck of it, here it is:
Trinity
Lo, here is a mystery
Our God, Who is Three in One
Behold, the Holy Trinity
The Father, The Spirit and The Son
More than we can understand
How can such a strange thing be
We cannot, with the mind of man
Comprehend infinity
We must simply trust His Word
Believe that He is One in Three
For we know "Thus saith the Lord"
That is enough for you and me
I haven't pulled that one out in ages...Not one of my better efforts, I know. I was young...
You might actually want to QUOTE scripture, rather than paraphrase with your own unique twist brakelite. I have no problem reading.
As far as you deflecting by calling me into disrepute, standard procedure for false teachers. The Pharisees did it ALL the time to Jesus.
Not the issue either. The issue is your attempt to deconstruct the Triune nature of God when the Bible clearly shows it as such. The first comforter was Jesus and the second was the Holy Spirit, but not surprisingly you also try to deconstruct this by not even quoting scripture. Apparently you don't understand John 14:15-17 either?
The UPC also believes that Jesus is God brakelite, and their doctrine is ALSO heretical. The fact that you insist on not directly answering my very simple direct questions, and resort to all this rhetoric is very telling, but won't work.
The following two links have very specific and succinct exposition on the Trinity. You either accept them AND the link that Forrest provides above or you don't. Now MAN UP and tell us which.
https://carm.org/what-trinity
http://heidelblog.net/2013/03/the-athanasian-creed-on-the-trinity/
Evidently, Christianity Board does not insist that we see all three members of the trinity as being co-equal.StanJ said:
If you have no concern with the mods doing their job, I would suggest you relax and let them do it.
Are you aware that https://carm.org/what-trinity agrees with Brakelite, speaking of subordination within the trinity?StanJ said:
"There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity regarding order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third."
The other one, http://heidelblog.net/2013/03/the-athanasian-creed-on-the-trinity/ insists that you must belong to the Catholic church to be saved:
"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the
catholic faith; which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."
Really, you should read this stuff before you post it...
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