Is Lordship salvation Biblical?

[GEN2REV]

Which clearly shows me that the 5 foolish virgins
and the "lord, lord, ..." were never saved at all.
J

I believe the Bible shows Salvation to be a process that has conditions.

It is clear that they were all foolish for not meeting those conditions, and continuing to live in sin, but they were certainly believers.

So, again ... belief is not enough. As you demonstrated with the verses about the demons believing and shuddering.

 

[Johann]

I believe the Bible shows Salvation to be a process that has conditions.

It is clear that they were all foolish for not meeting those conditions, and continuing to live in sin, but they were certainly true believers.

So, again ... belief is not enough. As you demonstrated with the verses about the demons believing and shuddering.

Whatever you say brother, whatever you say.
J.

 

[GEN2REV]

Whatever you say brother, whatever you say.
J.

I don't even understand what you're disagreeing with since you supported my point with the verses about demons believing, but .... ok.

 

[GEN2REV]

The true believers, are those who have become Born Again of God's Holy Spirit. John 3:3-8, Romans 8:8-9.
However, having said that, there are many who are Born again, but have not effectively walked in His Spirit while in this life, and therefore have hardly scratched the surface of what it means to have the Mind of Christ. Iows, they have not allowed the Spirit of God to overtake/consume their mind [will] by His Mind [Will].
Does that mean that God will reject them for having faith by the Spirit, trusting in only the foundation of Jesus Christ, which was laid in them for their salvation?
Though the Holy Spirit may be in them, it is by that reason alone shall all of such be saved.
Gal.4[19] My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,.....
To what level that Christ is formed within those of us who ARE Born Again, only God knows.

For those who are born again, Paul says this:
1Cor.3[9] For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
[10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

[12] Now if any man build upon
this foundation [vs. 11] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[16] Know YE not that YE [both plural and singularly] ARE the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[17] If any man [both singularly and plural] defile [destroy- Strongs 5351] the temple of God [both singularly and plural], him shall God destroy [Strongs 5351]; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are [both singularly and plural].

[18] Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise [by the wisdom of men*] in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. *1 Corinthians 2:5
[19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
[20] And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
[21] Therefore let no man glory in men*. For all things are yours; [again 1 Cor. 2:5].

[22] Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
[23] And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

I think I agree with all of this.

Especially like the Galatians 4:19 verse.

 

[farouk]

Great verse.
Also, Luke 14:28 comes to mind.
One should count the cost before building a tower,
Jesus said he should consider the cost.

@GodsGrace Saving faith is like the good ground into which the seed falls in the Parable of the Sower, that brings lasting fruit....

 

[Cross8527]

I don't fully understand Lordship salvation but from what i gathered from the video it seems that it has biblical properties but i wouldn't say it is 100% biblical as it seems to make it a measure of our own efforts rather than putting emphasis on the efforts of the cross

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace Saving faith is like the good ground into which the seed falls in the Parable of the Sower, that brings lasting fruit....

Amen brother.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't fully understand Lordship salvation but from what i gathered from the video it seems that it has biblical properties but i wouldn't say it is 100% biblical as it seems to make it a measure of our own efforts rather than putting emphasis on the efforts of the cross

What's wrong with our own effort?

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't fully understand Lordship salvation but from what i gathered from the video it seems that it has biblical properties but i wouldn't say it is 100% biblical as it seems to make it a measure of our own efforts rather than putting emphasis on the efforts of the cross

Simply stated, Lordship Salvation just means that we are a disciple of Jesus and follow His teachings.

If we are to follow His teachings, it requires some effort on our part...although it doesn't Feel like an effort, but a blessing to please God.

 

[Cross8527]

What's wrong with our own effort?

Because it was never about our effort it was always about the efforts of Christ and the sacrifice of his blood. If we go by our own efforts we will always fall short and we will work in vain but if we understand the efforts and the sacrifice of the cross we can be live a life pleasing to him not by our own efforts by because of the efforts of Christ

 

[GodsGrace]

Because it was never about our effort it was always about the efforts of Christ and the sacrifice of his blood. If we go by our own efforts we will always fall short and we will work in vain but if we understand the efforts and the sacrifice of the cross we can be live a life pleasing to him not by our own efforts by because of the efforts of Christ

Are you talking about our efforts before or after our encounter with our Lord?

If before I agree...
If after then I'd have to disagree.
Jesus left us with much to do for His kingdom on earth. We are God's hands.
For instance in Matt 25 Jesus tells us a few things we are to do.

 

[Cross8527]

Simply stated, Lordship Salvation just means that we are a disciple of Jesus and follow His teachings.

If we are to follow His teachings, it requires some effort on our part...although it doesn't Feel like an effort, but a blessing to please God.

It seems to me that for me at least it just happens by instinct it just naturally flows i don't have to try by effort it just is in my new nature i don't know why it would even require effort to begin with. yes we are tempted and battle the flesh but this is something that is a inconvenience and some battle with it more so than others but from what the video said Lordship salvation seems to go along more of a being obedient by your own efforts kind of thing when it really should just feel natural or at the very least should be something that we naturally strive for not because he is our Lord but because we love him and love is the key here.

For him to be our Lord for us to revere him to hold him in honor to obey him out of duty is well and good but it can be taken to far if we obey him out of our own efforts in order to please him this makes it about works not about the cross and to uunderstand exactly what the cross did and what it entails one understands the rest and the freddom it also brings with it. To know this is to live in it to live in it you produce it naturally as it flows in you like living water you don't require a term like Lordship slavtion to define such a relationship in fact it seems to me that if Lordship salvation is what you say it is then all believers all true believers who are born again and made new have this and produce it naturally and the term Lordship salvation is just another term for born again but according to the video it is more than that

 

[Cross8527]

Are you talking about our efforts before or after our encounter with our Lord?

If before I agree...
If after then I'd have to disagree.
Jesus left us with much to do for His kingdom on earth. We are God's hands.
For instance in Matt 25 Jesus tells us a few things we are to do.

I am talking about after because especially after it should be like the fruits of the spirit and come naturally effort should have nothing to do with it

 

[GodsGrace]

It seems to me that for me at least it just happens by instinct it just naturally flows i don't have to try by effort it just is in my new nature i don't know why it would even require effort to begin with. yes we are tempted and battle the flesh but this is something that is a inconvenience and some battle with it more so than others but from what the video said Lordship salvation seems to go along more of a being obedient by your own efforts kind of thing when it really should just feel natural or at the very least should be something that we naturally strive for not because he is our Lord but because we love him and love is the key here.

For him to be our Lord for us to revere him to hold him in honor to obey him out of duty is well and good but it can be taken to far if we obey him out of our own efforts in order to please him this makes it about works not about the cross and to uunderstand exactly what the cross did and what it entails one understands the rest and the freddom it also brings with it. To know this is to live in it to live in it you produce it naturally as it flows in you like living water you don't require a term like Lordship slavtion to define such a relationship in fact it seems to me that if Lordship salvation is what you say it is then all believers all true believers who are born again and made new have this and produce it naturally and the term Lordship salvation is just another term for born again but according to the video it is more than that

Very good explanation and I really agree about how obedience comes naturally out of love, or at least, this is how it should be.

I used the word Effort to keep away from the word Works, which has come to be almost a curse word in our Christian faith.

And, in fact, you don't like the word Works.

I believe that after salvation good works are a part of our lives. How else to understand the Beatitudes, Matt 25, etc.

I think I know what you mean in your post, bit it sounds like works are not even necessary.

I don't think you mean this.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am talking about after because especially after it should be like the fruits of the spirit and come naturally effort should have nothing to do with it

Sometimes it takes effort to get along with my sis in law!!

 

[Cross8527]

Very good explanation and I really agree about how obedience comes naturally out of love, or at least, this is how it should be.

I used the word Effort to keep away from the word Works, which has come to be almost a curse word in our Christian faith.

And, in fact, you don't like the word Works.

I believe that after salvation good works are a part of our lives. How else to understand the Beatitudes, Matt 25, etc.

I think I know what you mean in your post, bit it sounds like works are not even necessary.

I don't think you mean this.

Ah yes works that is a taboo word of sorts isn't it? it isn't that they aren't necessary it's just that the way they come about is misunderstood among the church, if the fruits of the spirit come naturally and obedience come naturally then works come naturally as well as the new nature in us is not like the old nature where we would do works to earn salvation or do works to earn favor from God where as the new nature naturally does works as if by instinct and does it out of love for God and for no other reason love is the motive and is the reason it pleases him so much

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah yes works that is a taboo word of sorts isn't it? it isn't that they aren't necessary it's just that the way they come about is misunderstood among the church, if the fruits of the spirit come naturally and obedience come naturally then works come naturally as well as the new nature in us is not like the old nature where we would do works to earn salvation or do works to earn favor from God where as the new nature naturally does works as if by instinct and does it out of love for God and for no other reason love is the motive and is the reason it pleases him so much

Amen.
Works cannot earn salvation unless faith is first present. They do not please God unless we do them out of love for Him.

Your last sentence says it all...

 

[Earburner]

Amen.
Works cannot earn salvation unless faith is first present. They do not please God unless we do them out of love for Him.

Your last sentence says it all...

Jesus gave us the example through the relationship He had with His Father.
John.14[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me,
he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Gal.2[20] I am crucified with Christ:
nevertheless I live;
yet not I,
but [rather by] Christ [who] liveth in me:
and the [new] life which I now live in the flesh,
I live BY THE faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus gave us the example through the relationship He had with His Father.
John.14[10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me,
he doeth the works.
[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Gal.2[20] I am crucified with Christ:
nevertheless I live;
yet not I,
but [rather by] Christ [who] liveth in me:
and the [new] life which I now live in the flesh,
I live BY THE faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Great verses Earburner.
Your underlined and present tense verbs did not escape me.
Thanks!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Lordship Salvation doctrine that existed before John MacArthur and company is a true doctrine. It is biblical. But the version of Lordship Doctrine taught later by Calvinists (like John MacArthur, and Gotquestions) is not the same doctrine.

I believe John MacArthur and other Calvinists (I have encountered and talk with) do not appear to be for true holy living entirely or in putting away grievous sin for good because they make for an allowance to sin and still be saved on some level. So being "faithful unto death" has a different understanding to them than the way Jesus teaches it (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28, etc.) and the way John teaches it (1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8).

How so?

Well, Kenneth Nally committed suicide as per his influence of John MacArthur's ministry and MacArthur said that he was still saved.

Here is a quote from an article:

"At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”​

Article Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

John MacArthur says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/audio/macarthur-take-mark.mp3​

John MacArthur says,

".. sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer ...
(The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)"​

John MacArthur confirms how one can sin and still be saved here in this video:

This is why I believe the Lordship Salvation doctrine promoted by John MacArthur is a trojan horse. The version of holy living he is talking about is not the one defined in the Bible.

In other words, if a Calvinist thinks they are saved or Elected in Limited Atonement, then there is nothing that can reverse that salvation even if they sin or do evil. Granted, this may not reflect the view of all Calvinists, though. But the point here is that many Calvinists who do teach Lordship Salvation do not teach a proper view of holy living and sin.

Gotquestions (A Calvinist website) also believes that a Christian can sin and still be saved like John MacArthur. For they say that a backslidden Christian (in tons of sin) is still saved. See this article here:

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

So again, these are Calvinists who are not in full agreement with the original version of Lordship Salvation. Their version of Lordship Salvation is a Trojan horse and it’s not the true biblical version of Lordship Salvation. For true Lordship Salvation does not teach that you can sin and still be saved.

John MacArthur coincidently started writing his books on Lordship salvation after a person committed suicide in his church (because of his sin and still be saved teaching). He wanted to undo the damage.