Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[marks]

Usually, Pretribbers conflate Pretrib teaching with Imminency teaching to claim that if Imminency was taught in the history of the Church, that means Pretribism was taught, as well. But they are not the same thing--Pretribism was never taught--certainly not by Paul.

I personally think that the rapture of the church will occur during the great earthquake of the Gog/Magog invasion.

I don't want to spend too much time on an already complicated subject on what someone else may teach on it.

We can look to the timing in the Bible.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But true doctrine that God *wants* us to know and believe He speaks in the most explicit terms. And Pretrib is anything but explicit. I've discussed this and read this for many years. And a good number of Pretribbers admit that their doctrine is a "mystery," and not explicitly taught. It must be received by "revelation," they say, just as Paul received it by a "mystery." How dangerous! Just open the door for demons to come in and lie, if solid doctrine is not there to guide us, and all we have is "openness" to spiritual revelation!

Again . . . it's about what does the Bible itself teach?

Is there a "rapture"? Not everyone agrees on that. What is your idea?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

You definitely could know me better than that! I'll try to facilitate that.

It's all about the Bible. Either it teaches something, or it doesn't. What do personal associations have to do with it?

Much love!

OK, in the first place, why should different rapture views divide? Aren't we one in Christ?



Have you even noticed that throughout history, the "great doctrines" of the church came in waves? Christology occupied the first few centuries, and eschatology seems to be taking over the last few centuries. It seems fitting to me.

But again, try to forget about who taught what when, and focus on specifically, what does the Bible itself say?

Much love!

I do expect prophecy to rise up at particular times, yes. Prophecy arose not necessarily when great moves of God took place, but often, when the greatest dangers arose. For example, we have great manifestation of God's Spirit when the temple was dedicated, but only limited prophecy. But when Israel was in danger of final destruction, due to the sin in Israel, much prophetic warning ensued. God's word comes the loudest in the greatest emergency. Normally, God can just speak to us through our conscience and through the blessings He pours out on us. We enjoy His fellowship everyday, without fanfare, when we simply walk with Him.

But doctrine is entrenched in apostolic teaching, and doesn't waver. It may indeed be renewed in waves, but it is not "new teaching." Pretrib Teaching is, as I said, "new teaching." It was not taught to any extent, if at all, in the Early Church. The closest thing to is was Imminency Doctrine, the idea that the Kingdom of God was arriving immediately. Paul exposed this as a deception in 2 Thes 2, when he said Antichrist must precede the return of Christ with his Kingdom. Pain comes before gain--that's the great lesson of the Christian life--the need for endurance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I personally think that the rapture of the church will occur during the great earthquake of the Gog/Magog invasion.

I don't want to spend too much time on an already complicated subject on what someone else may teach on it.

We can look to the timing in the Bible.

Much love!

I'm not sure what you mean about the "timing in the Bible?" But okay, we'll leave it at that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Again . . . it's about what does the Bible itself teach?

Is there a "rapture"? Not everyone agrees on that. What is your idea?

Much love!

I believe that we need resurrection to return to the Tree of Life. That happens due to Christ's pardon, when he returns to give all of his people new glorified bodies, immortal bodies. We are "caught up" to meet the Christ in the clouds at the beginning of his descent to earth. It takes place in a mere second of time, so that we don't have to explain how long it takes to get up there, or how long it takes to get back down here. It's instantaneous.

We are caught up to heaven, because that's where Christ is when he begins his descent. We must return with him in order to participate in his coming Kingdom. We must go to him where he also was glorified. After his resurrection he had to return to heaven to be glorified himself, and not just live in his resurrected body. He needed to also receive a new glorified body, an immortal body.

So when he comes back we have to go up to him in heaven to receive a new body from him, just as he received a new glorified body from the Father. And then, again in an instant, we return with Christ to earth, in new glorified bodies. We do so to begin a kind of heavenly rule over the earth, for the course of another thousand years. At that point we may be dimensional beings, like the angels are presently. But at the end of the thousand years, we will again come down from heaven with the New Jerusalem, and live on the earth forever and ever.

Certainly I may have some of these elements wrong. But that's how I see it presently. You can give me your version too, if you wish?

 

[Billy Evmur]

As long as it is not THE Great Tribulation, we can survive it.

In the 6th chapter of Revelations we see the martyrs under the altar crying for justice, they are given white robes to wear and told to wait a little while until they should be joined by their brethren who were to be similarly martyred, in the next chapter we see the great multitude which could not be numbered, also dressed in robes made white by the blood of the Lamb.

These we are told are they who have come out of the great tribulation. It is my belief that they are practically the whole end-time church and they are martyred ... that is how I understand it.

 

[Billy Evmur]

So you are a mid tribber I take it then.

But the elect n Matthew refers to the nation of Israel as Paul also said in Romans 11:

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

All God's children are elect and called to His purposes. Yes I would say I am a mid-tribber.

 

[Davy]

Well let me show you what I have done over 46 years and then maybe you could give me pointers:

1. I have graduated Bible College.
2. Took a year of biblical hebrew and greek
3. Have gone through the new testament over 200 times
4. Gone through the whole OT about 4 times with parts (psalms, proverbs, genesis, and the prophets) over 40-45 times.
5. As for Eschatology? I have taught it in Bible college and home and church studies for over 35 years!
6. Been on radio, tv, local newspapers teaching Scripture
7. Been on mission trips on 4 continents.

What do you think I am lacking in study tools?

Study 'by' The Holy Spirit, while disregarding men's traditions. Education is only a tool, a help, nothing more.

So when you say things suggesting that The LORD doesn't deem it important about knowing the timeframe for the rapture, you are actually showing lack of Bible study because Jesus did... show us the timeframe of the rapture in His Word. With all those above 7 guides of experience, how could you miss it?

Yes but it is not the word saints Jesus used but the "elect".MAtthew is not the rapture! Nor Mark.

Again, I guess all your previous study and experience has failed you again, because that Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture about His coming in the clouds after the tribulation to gather His saints is the very event that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. Jesus was upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples answering their question of what the sign of His coming would be, and of the end of the world (Matthew 24:3). So there's really no excuse to not heed those Signs He gave there for His Church.

OH brother but it does! It appears you are post trib, maybe even a believere in replacement theology so you would not ever been exposed to this teaching of SCripture.

What I believe is irrelevant to what you propose based on men's doctrine of a pre-trib rapture theory.

God's Word emphatically reveals Christ returns only one more time, and it is to be after the tribulation Jesus warned of, and that is when it also shows He will gather His Church. Apostle Paul showed this also in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 and linked to the "day of the Lord" timing (rendered "day of Christ" there). And Jesus saying He comes "as a thief" is a link to that "day of the Lord" timing for His coming also. But of course, you FAILED to address any... of that from my previous post, which reveals you like to side-step around the real issue, i.e., what the written Scripture actually states.

 

[Davy]

That’s an interesting take on this. It could very well be about this. I always thought it had something to do with witchcraft or something. What do you think the arm hole pillow thing is all about?

In Ezek.13:17, God is addressing the "daughters of thy people", put for the leaders and priests of the "house of Israel". Those are the symbolic "women" of the next 18th verse that sew coverings ("pillows") over God's outstretched hands towards His people in judgment. The idea is to hide Him. The "kerchiefs upon the head" is for the same purpose, to hide Him from the people. The word "stature" points to those in high position.

The main reason why I am certain this is about the preaching of the pre-trib rapture theory is not only because of the fly away idea, but also because of the timing shown for it in the early part of the Ezekiel 13 chapter.

Ezek 13:4-6
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.

5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
KJV

God specifically made Ezekiel a prophet to the "house of Israel". He was captive to Babylon at that time, so the ten tribe "house of Israel" northern kingdom has already been scattered before then, and were just north of Babylon in Assyria and the lands of the Medes (2 Kings 17). The ten tribes were then scattered further among the Gentile nations.

And if you recall, Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, which essentially meant He would be received by the ten lost tribes of Israel though the majority of the "house of Judah" in Jerusalem rejected Him. All of this is relative to that above Ezekiel 13:5 verse, because that is addressed to the "house of Israel" for a very specific timeline.

What's the timeline for this chapter, given there? It is the end time event of the battle that's to occur on the "day of the Lord", which is the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus returns to gather His Church. Thus it is pointing to a period just prior... to that "day of the Lord". That would be... now, today. And what doctrine is being preached and believed by many of God's people today that fits God's rebuke about flying away? A pre-trib rapture theory. God's Word does teach that we are to make a 'stand' for Christ at the end of this world, in the "evil day" per Apostle Paul in Ephesians 6. That is the battle and stand being pointed to in Ezekiel 13:5 above.

 

[jshiii]

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

I often wonder why us spoiled Americans have ever believed in a pre-tribulation rapture? Me on the other hand, yes I am a BLESSED AMERICAN, wonder why being American makes us so special? Americans are not that special. Who is to say we won't live in civil war for the next 200 years? Asian, Middle East Countries have lived in Civil War for Countless years? Even European! With that said, I prepare. I prepare to preach the Gospel and I prepare to defend my family and friends. I just opened a wonderful Christmas Present! A Remington Sendero 7mm Mag. A wonderful addition to my gun collection.

NEVER GONNA MAKE IT EASY FOR EVIL!
SOME OF US HAVE TO THIN THE WEEDS!
IMAGINE THE WAR GOING ON IN THE SPIRITUAL WORLD!

 

[Truther]

In the 6th chapter of Revelations we see the martyrs under the altar crying for justice, they are given white robes to wear and told to wait a little while until they should be joined by their brethren who were to be similarly martyred, in the next chapter we see the great multitude which could not be numbered, also dressed in robes made white by the blood of the Lamb.

These we are told are they who have come out of the great tribulation. It is my belief that they are practically the whole end-time church and they are martyred ... that is how I understand it.

Hi Billy.

Here are the bulk of the Tribulation Martyrs....


14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God....



And these.....


9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.



Which are of the 144, 000 Jews of the 12 tribes of Israel and those that heeded the warnings of the 3 angels in Rev 14.

These are considered post Apostolic saints.(salvation gained via refusal to receive the mark and accepting physical death).

So, if you want to be saved during the Great Tribulation, you simply must be ready to die.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Study 'by' The Holy Spirit, while disregarding men's traditions. Education is only a tool, a help, nothing more.

So when you say things suggesting that The LORD doesn't deem it important about knowing the timeframe for the rapture, you are actually showing lack of Bible study because Jesus did... show us the timeframe of the rapture in His Word. With all those above 7 guides of experience, how could you miss it?

Mostly because the bible tells us teh Dayof the Lord (the rapture) comes like a thief in the night!

I know when Jesus will return to earth- 7 years after Israel signs the 7 year covenant with the antichrist! The rapture? it can come at any time.

Again, I guess all your previous study and experience has failed you again, because that Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture about His coming in the clouds after the tribulation to gather His saints is the very event that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. Jesus was upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples answering their question of what the sign of His coming would be, and of the end of the world (Matthew 24:3). So there's really no excuse to not heed those Signs He gave there for His Church.

YOu are so very wrong! Read both- write down the events and see they are two different events involving two different groups of people.

The olivet discourse gathering is for the Jews! And they are gathered to be on earth!

The rapture as Paul declared is for the church to be gathered in the heavens and always be there!

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


The church is to be caught up to heaven!

The elect of the olivet discourse: Are gathered when Jesus returns to earth by angels.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But the rapture is done by Jesus with but the voice of the archangel. and we are gathered into heaven.

 

[Davy]

Mostly because the bible tells us teh Dayof the Lord (the rapture) comes like a thief in the night!

I know when Jesus will return to earth- 7 years after Israel signs the 7 year covenant with the antichrist! The rapture? it can come at any time.

The idea of a rapture is only about the "caught up" event of 1 Thessalonians 4. And that event only applies to the saints still alive on earth when Jesus 'comes'. Jesus only has one more coming, and that is the day of your so-called 'rapture' (which actually that word is not even in The Bible). The pre-trib rapture doctors have wrongly taught you to believe that there's a difference between the words rapture and second coming. The word rapture comes from a Latin translation of "caught up" (Greek harpazo). If you're such a scholar, how is it you do not know this?

As per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation. He was emphatic and very specific on that timing for both His coming AND His gathering of His Church. Those who go against Him on that serve doctrines of men instead that are designed by devils.

YOu are so very wrong! Read both- write down the events and see they are two different events involving two different groups of people.

You mean Lord Jesus is wrong?? because that's Who I'm quoting, so you cannot be disagreeing with me, because HE showed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation; I didn't make that up, it is written:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

The difference between those two examples above is that the Matthew 24 gathering example is about the asleep saints that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He descends from Heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14). But the Mark 13 example is about the gathering of the saints still alive on earth at His coming, which is what Paul taught as the "caught up" event in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So that Scripture DIRECTLY parallels what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the rapture. And the FACT that Jesus showed there that will happen AFTER the tribulation, it is a solid prophecy those who love Him can count on!

The olivet discourse gathering is for the Jews! And they are gathered to be on earth!

Still not thinking for yourself in God's Word I see. Who was Jesus speaking to on that Mount of Olives? His disciples. And who do His Apostles and disciples represent according to Apostle Paul? They represent part of the 'foundation' of Christ's Church per Ephesians 2! So the fact that they were Jews is totally... irrelevant! and stupid actually, because trying to use the fact they were Jews is racist, and wrongly suggests that they cannot be a part of Christ's Church!

What did Jesus' disciples ask Him about on that Mount per Matthew 24:3? They asked Him about the sign of His coming and the end of the world. Then Jesus began giving the SIGNS of the SEALS of Revelation 6! YES... Christ's Olivet discourse is paralleled with the SEALS of Revelation 6! And just who... did Lord Jesus give His Book of Revelation to??? To the 7 Churches in Asia, which formed a circle, and represents His Church unto all generations, even us today!

Thus Christ's Olivet discourse is FOR HIS CHURCH, of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, as ONE BODY. And BOTH will be gathered together by Him when He comes after the tribulation, and that... is what is written in God's Word.

There is NOTHING written about Jesus coming in the clouds and gathering His Church and then going back up into Heaven to escape the tribulation. That is a false doctrine of men, and is nowhere written in God's Word. The idea that Israel is gathered on earth, while the Church is in Heaven off the earth with Jesus is made up. And nor does an Israelite born of one of the tribes of Israel lose their heritage as Israel when believing on Jesus Christ as their Savior. But men's doctrines make up ideas against all that in order to STEAL people's money and give them a false hope. Those men are as bad as greedy funeral hosts who try to push off expensive burials upon families that can't really afford them.

The rapture as Paul declared is for the church to be gathered in the heavens and always be there!

Apostle Paul never mentioned a 'rapture' in his Epistles. He taught an harpazo event which the KJV translators brought as "caught up" in the English. So your trying to create a timeframe with that word 'rapture' is a false doctrine. Jesus has only ONE RETURN, and that is His coming in the clouds on the LAST DAY of this world, and that is when the "caught up" will happen, on that "day of the Lord". That is AFTER... the tribulation like He said.

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The church is to be caught up to heaven!

When Jesus returns, per Ezekiel 40 thru 47 The Father's "house" is shown located ON EARTH, in the middle east. That is where those chambers of the priests are first mentioned, which are those "mansions" (abodes) Jesus pointed to in John 14. (We are expected to have read and studied the Old Testament Books too, not just The New Testament only.)

So there is a difference... between this present time, and the day at the end of this world when Jesus comes to gather His saints. We will NOT see God's "house" established in the middle east for THIS present world. That is for the world to come when Jesus returns. Or didn't you notice the TIMING Jesus linked to that "mansions" manifesting? with, "I will come again"? HOW could you miss that??? And what do ya know, Jesus showed WHERE He is coming to per the Zechariah 14 chapter! It is to the MOUNT OF OLIVES east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH! And you're supposed to be learned, and you don't know this??? What have you been listening to instead?

The elect of the olivet discourse: Are gathered when Jesus returns to earth by angels.
....
But the rapture is done by Jesus with but the voice of the archangel. and we are gathered into heaven.

The fact that Jesus sends His angels to gather His elect is irrelevant to the very event of His gathering His saints there. Your argument is silly and has no weight at all.

No, we are not gathered into Heaven. It will simply be that those of us still alive when Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation, our flesh will be cast off on that last day, and that... is 'how' we are gathered to Him, and to the asleep saints He will bring with Him from Heaven, for they are raised first. He will do that AS... He DESCENDS to earth, on His way to... the Mount of Olives.

1. The 7th Vial is cast into the 'air', God's cup of wrath poured out, the same time as the 7th Trumpet - final Woe.
2. Jesus appears in the clouds DESCENDING TO EARTH with His asleep saints.
3. His saints still alive on earth are changed at the twinkling of an eye, and "caught up" with them, on the way to the middle east.
4. Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives and it split in two, bringing all His saints with Him.
5. Jesus' "thousand years" reign ON EARTH with His elect over all nations and peoples begins.

 

[Taken]

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?
OP ^

Nothing New Under the son.

•God created the Earth.
•God created mankind out of the Earth.
•God Raised men "Faithful TO God", UP Above the Earth.
•God Destroyed the Earth and Unfaithful men With the Earth. Water.

•God Shall Raise men "Faithful TO the Lord God", UP Above the Earth.
•A few mortals, Faithful to God, (but Not IN Christ) shall remain, ON Earth with Gods Protection.
•Again, God Shall Destroy the Earth and Unfaithful Inhabitants, with the Earth. Fire.

•Again God Shall Restore/Renew the Earth and AND ONLY Faithful Immortals Shall Return from mortal flesh Death IN the Earth, and Heavenly spiritual rebirth and Restored saved Souls IN Heaven, to Occupy a Restored Earth Forever. VOID of Sin and Corruption.

No the Rapture (rising UP of the Faithful) Above the Face of the Earth's Destruction
IS NOT a doctrine of Demons.

Rising Up the Faithful IN the Lord God, (Above the Face of the Earth,) IS a Doctrine of the Lord God.

Rejection of the Lord Gods Doctrine, IS the Doctrine of Demons.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The idea of a rapture is only about the "caught up" event of 1 Thessalonians 4. And that event only applies to the saints still alive on earth when Jesus 'comes'. Jesus only has one more coming, and that is the day of your so-called 'rapture' (which actually that word is not even in The Bible). The pre-trib rapture doctors have wrongly taught you to believe that there's a difference between the words rapture and second coming. The word rapture comes from a Latin translation of "caught up" (Greek harpazo). If you're such a scholar, how is it you do not know this?

As per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation. He was emphatic and very specific on that timing for both His coming AND His gathering of His Church. Those who go against Him on that serve doctrines of men instead that are designed by devils.

This is wrong!
the church does not have an earthly but a heavenly home.

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus is preparing a place in heaven for us. NOt to
"catch us up" and immediately land us back on earth!

6 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Teh rapture is not a coming of Jesus or part of His coming back to earth. It is its own event.

As per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation. He was emphatic and very specific on that timing for both His coming AND His gathering of His Church. Those who go against Him on that serve doctrines of men instead that are designed by devils.

You falsely equate the church with the elect of Matt. 24. The church is not the elect found in the olivet discourse.

You mean Lord Jesus is wrong?? because that's Who I'm quoting, so you cannot be disagreeing with me, because HE showed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation; I didn't make that up, it is written:



Jesus is not wrong! YOur conflating Matt 24 with 1 Thess. 4 is what is wrong.
In Matt, it is angels who gather together
In Thess it is Jesus who catches up.

Two different words in the Greek with two totally different meanings. Just because both events have a trumpet does not make it mean they are the same event, for they are not!

God promised the church to deliver it from the wrath to come- that wrath is the tribulation or 70th week of Daniel and not the lake of fire!

The difference between those two examples above is that the Matthew 24 gathering example is about the asleep saints that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He descends from Heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14). But the Mark 13 example is about the gathering of the saints still alive on earth at His coming, which is what Paul taught as the "caught up" event in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So that Scripture DIRECTLY parallels what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the rapture. And the FACT that Jesus showed there that will happen AFTER the tribulation, it is a solid prophecy those who love Him can count on!

Horrendous exegesis! The Matthew and Mark events are the same event Jesus spoke of in teh Olivet Disourse which is discussed in the synoptic gospels. Gathering and snatching away are different things.

Still not thinking for yourself in God's Word I see. Who was Jesus speaking to on that Mount of Olives? His disciples. And who do His Apostles and disciples represent according to Apostle Paul? They represent part of the 'foundation' of Christ's Church per Ephesians 2! So the fact that they were Jews is totally... irrelevant! and stupid actually, because trying to use the fact they were Jews is racist, and wrongly suggests that they cannot be a part of Christ's Church!

YOur arrogance is underwhelming! And your presumptiousness of what I believe is sin! Which you are so deadly worng in your false assumptions.

What did Jesus' disciples ask Him about on that Mount per Matthew 24:3? They asked Him about the sign of His coming and the end of the world. Then Jesus began giving the SIGNS of the SEALS of Revelation 6! YES... Christ's Olivet discourse is paralleled with the SEALS of Revelation 6! And just who... did Lord Jesus give His Book of Revelation to??? To the 7 Churches in Asia, which formed a circle, and represents His Church unto all generations, even us today!

Well if you were a careful student of teh Word you would see that the Disciples asked Jesus three sperate questions that Jesus answered on tehe Mount of Olives. And you forget all teh OT promises to Israelis that God will fuflill that He said He would do in thee OT>

Thus Christ's Olivet discourse is FOR HIS CHURCH, of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, as ONE BODY. And BOTH will be gathered together by Him when He comes after the tribulation, and that... is what is written in God's Word.

Then tell me how this applies to teh church:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Apostle Paul never mentioned a 'rapture' in his Epistles. He taught an harpazo event which the KJV translators brought as "caught up" in the English. So your trying to create a timeframe with that word 'rapture' is a false doctrine. Jesus has only ONE RETURN, and that is His coming in the clouds on the LAST DAY of this world, and that is when the "caught up" will happen, on that "day of the Lord". That is AFTER... the tribulation like He said.

Straining at gnats to swallow a camel. They could call the event a studebaker. It is just a word to describe a biblical event.

1. The 7th Vial is cast into the 'air', God's cup of wrath poured out, the same time as the 7th Trumpet - final Woe.
2. Jesus appears in the clouds DESCENDING TO EARTH with His asleep saints.
3. His saints still alive on earth are changed at the twinkling of an eye, and "caught up" with them, on the way to the middle east.
4. Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives and it split in two, bringing all His saints with Him.
5. Jesus' "thousand years" reign ON EARTH with His elect over all nations and peoples begins.

1. Wrong Wrong Wrong! The seals, trumpets and bowls are all separate events. 21 events in the last days in all.
2&3 happens before the 70th week begins. Teh bride (the church) is in heaven before Jesus returns and we have undergone the bema judgment and made our robes cleansed.

4&5 I agree, but the elect are Israel! the apostles rule over Israel and Israel rules over the earth under Jesus and we the church are Jesus bride!

2&3 Once again let as look at the rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is no gap of time (other than the dead rise then right after the alive are snatched to meet them in the air) between the dead rising(their bodies) and the alive being snatched away! therfe is no room in teh Greek for this gap you wish to force into this passage.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

There is no rapture at all, in the scriptures. There is a resurrection of those who are the anointed who have the heavenly calling who are righteous and have died. These Christians who have died and are the heavenly calling, will be resurrected first. 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 There are those who are righteous who will pass through the great tribulation and Armageddon and into the new earth without dying. During the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ there will be resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous who are those who will be resurrected on paradise Earth. The point is that there is no rapture in scripture, the scriptures speak a resurrection.

 

[marks]

I'm not sure what you mean about the "timing in the Bible?" But okay, we'll leave it at that.

For instance, that the trumpets are not given to the angels until after the seals have been opened. And Satan is cast to the earth after the 2nd Woe, or, after the 5th and 6th trumpets are sounded. Timing words like that.

Much love!

 

[Truther]

There is no rapture at all, in the scriptures. There is a resurrection of those who are the anointed who have the heavenly calling who are righteous and have died. These Christians who have died and are the heavenly calling, will be resurrected first. 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 There are those who are righteous who will pass through the great tribulation and Armageddon and into the new earth without dying. During the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ there will be resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous who are those who will be resurrected on paradise Earth. The point is that there is no rapture in scripture, the scriptures speak a resurrection.

Resurrection of the living and the dead simultaneously, which verses in the Bible you disagree with VIA the Watchtower society.

 

[marks]

When the Scriptures state in 2 Thes 2 that Jesus can't come for his Church until after the revelation--and destruction--of the Antichrist, we must have receptive spirits, and believe what is being reasonably communicated. But if we choose not to be receptive, we will always make justification for what we want to believe.

This is not what that passage says.

That day . . . the day of the Lord, or the gathering of us to Christ? If you make these the same day, that remains your assumption. The text does not do that, and treats them separately.

Otherwise, why would the Thessalonian Christians be troubled?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes I would definitely be interested in more info. I have no desire to argue, just to learn.

Hi Mantis,

Do you have any specific questions about pre-trib rapture?

Much love!