Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[Davy]

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

Actually, Ezekiel 13 is where God first warned about the Pre-trib Rapture theory. He said He is against those 'who hunt the souls to make them fly'.

Ezek 13:17-23
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18 And say, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

There it is, God revealed long ago what the foxes among His people would be doing against them in the last days.

Note that Ezekiel 13:5 points to making a stand in the battle of the "day of the Lord". That day is the day of Christ's future 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord", like per Revelation 19; 1 Thessalonians 5; Zechariah 14; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9.

Notice He says those false prophets among His people would be strengthening the hands of the wicked by promising him life, so that he will not return from his wickedness. That is the 'once saved, always saved' false idea that many Pre-trib Rapture Churches like to teach. They teach once one believes on Jesus there is nothing they can do to lose their salvation, when they ought to be teaching how a believer can be in danger of hellfire by falling away to do wickedness. This very matter Jesus pointed out in Matthew 7 with those who will say to Him on that day of His return, "Lord, Lord...".

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"

23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I wish you'd study your Bible more, especially the Signs of the end that our Lord Jesus gave us, so you will not be deceived in our near future by the coming pseudo-Christ. That deception is the main danger for the end we are to be watching against, and not fall away to. So things are more serious than just picking up and moving on if a rapture prior to the trib doesn't happen.

Well let me show you what I have done over 46 years and then maybe you could give me pointers:

1. I have graduated Bible College.
2. Took a year of biblical hebrew and greek
3. Have gone through the new testament over 200 times
4. Gone through the whole OT about 4 times with parts (psalms, proverbs, genesis, and the prophets) over 40-45 times.
5. As for Eschatology? I have taught it in Bible college and home and church studies for over 35 years!
6. Been on radio, tv, local newspapers teaching Scripture
7. Been on mission trips on 4 continents.

What do you think I am lacking in study tools?

You're wrong. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Lord Jesus gave the 'specific' timing of His coming and gathering of His saints in relation to the "great tribulation". So He did give the SPECIFIC time via a direct statement.

Yes but it is not the word saints Jesus used but the "elect".MAtthew is not the rapture! Nor Mark.

That certainly is a wild statement, and has no bearing whatsoever in God's written Word. No label for the tribulation at the end of this world gives the timing of Christ's return to gather His Church. Only the event specifically declared by Lord Jesus, as I pointed to above, and by His Apostles, like Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9, show the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints. Metaphorical statements like He said He will come "as a thief" also define the timing of His coming to gather His saints (Revelation 16:15-17; 2 Peter 3:10).

OH brother but it does! It appears you are post trib, maybe even a believere in replacement theology so you would not ever been exposed to this teaching of SCripture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hello brother Ron!
"1. If a person has a relationship with Jesus, IF (for those who reject pre-trib) the rapture does not occur pre trib, people will be disappointed, but pick up and move on. It is the Lord who gives strength, not believing in a timeframe for the rapture."

What you say here has caught my eye because, if a Christian is putting so much hope in the re-Trib Rapture, being so totally "certain" that it is the only truth out there concerning the issue then, It might not be so easy to "Pick up and move on."
They believed AND taught this doctrine as Truth. And some even say that if you do not BELEIVE IN this "timing type" doctrine that, we are not saved and left behind for the "vultures"...if read thoroughly, one will find this doctrine is backwards IMHO.

"It is the Lord who gives strength, not believing in a timeframe for the rapture."

Amen and agreed.

Well I am one who has become 100% convinced over 46 years of study that the Bible only shows a pre-trib rapture. But let us say I am wrong for example and I see the antichrist sign the 7 year covenant with Israel which starts the 7 year tribulation period. That means the church going to go through some part of the trib. Will I be disappointed? Absolutely! But to paraphrase Paul and apply his heart to that of being in the trib:
2 Corinthians 4:8-10
King James Version

8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;

9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body


I am also sure that if the church enters the tribulation, the greatest persecution of pre-tribbers will come from those who are mid trib, or post trib and not unbelievers!
I have lost friends, a fiancee, been taken to psychologists, followed by Chinese state police, threatened with arrest, had a knife stuck in my gut all for the gospel. I do not think that if teh timing of the rapture is not what I have come to believe the Bible teaches, that it will ruffle my feathers too much.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

For the elect the 7 years will be cut short to 3 1/2 years [by means of Antichrist invading Israel]

So you are a mid tribber I take it then.

But the elect n Matthew refers to the nation of Israel as Paul also said in Romans 11:

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[Truther]

We are says Paul saved from the wrath of God...

.... but through great tribulation. says he. must we enter the kingdom.

Jesus tells us that tribulation comes from the world.

As long as it is not THE Great Tribulation, we can survive it.

 

[Truther]

Correct. Wrath is reserved for (a) the unbelieving, (b) the ungodly, (c) the unrighteous, (d) the wicked, and (e) all the enemies of God, Christ, and Christians.

Both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (spreading over the better part of seven years) are expressions of God's wrath. The sixth and seventh seal judgments correspond to this time period. But the first 3 1/2 years also include the wrath of Satan against the people of God. And just as God saved Noah and Lot from His wrath, and translated Enoch before the Flood, Christ will come for His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture and remove them from the earth so that the Restrainer of Satan (the Holy Spirit) is "taken out of the way".

It is only then that God will pour out His judgments upon the earth. It is interesting to note that even the 144,000 believing Jews will be sealed and raptured during the Tribulation. And the two witnesses (Moses & Elijah) will be killed by the Antichrist at the end of 3 1/2 years, but resurrected and raptured immediately.

Excellent post!

 

[Mantis]

Actually, Ezekiel 13 is where God first warned about the Pre-trib Rapture theory. He said He is against those 'who hunt the souls to make them fly'.

Ezek 13:17-23
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18 And say, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

There it is, God revealed long ago what the foxes among His people would be doing against them in the last days.

Note that Ezekiel 13:5 points to making a stand in the battle of the "day of the Lord". That day is the day of Christ's future 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord", like per Revelation 19; 1 Thessalonians 5; Zechariah 14; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9.

Notice He says those false prophets among His people would be strengthening the hands of the wicked by promising him life, so that he will not return from his wickedness. That is the 'once saved, always saved' false idea that many Pre-trib Rapture Churches like to teach. They teach once one believes on Jesus there is nothing they can do to lose their salvation, when they ought to be teaching how a believer can be in danger of hellfire by falling away to do wickedness. This very matter Jesus pointed out in Matthew 7 with those who will say to Him on that day of His return, "Lord, Lord...".

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"

23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV

That’s an interesting take on this. It could very well be about this. I always thought it had something to do with witchcraft or something. What do you think the arm hole pillow thing is all about?

 

[Nancy]

As long as it is not THE Great Tribulation, we can survive it.

Even if it IS "THE" great tribulation...we can survive IF we have the faith of Jesus. We can do ANYTHING through Christ who strengthens us. Is He not Almighty enough to save even through the great persecutions and tribulations that this world (aka- Satan) has to throw at us? Are we willing to die for Him, or our brothers and sisters? Are we willing to trust HIM through THE great tribulation? Or is God not able to protect and provide for us because it is just too GREAT? It's fear, and lack of faith that will break those who put all their eggs into this one basket. God help us!

 

[Truther]

Even if it IS "THE" great tribulation...we can survive IF we have the faith of Jesus. We can do ANYTHING through Christ who strengthens us. Is He not Almighty enough to save even through the great persecutions and tribulations that this world (aka- Satan) has to throw at us? Are we willing to die for Him, or our brothers and sisters? Are we willing to trust HIM through THE great tribulation? Or is God not able to protect and provide for us because it is just too GREAT? It's fear, and lack of faith that will break those who put all their eggs into this one basket. God help us!

THE Great Tribulation was designed to cause mankind to repent before the 2nd coming of Christ.....



16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[user]

THE Great Tribulation was designed to cause mankind to repent before the 2nd coming of Christ.....



16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

We are awaiting the peace agreement which will begin the 70th week of Daniel.

Now is not the time for folks to be skipping Acts 2:38

 

[Truther]

We are awaiting the peace agreement which will begin the 70th week of Daniel.

Now is not the time for folks to be skipping Acts 2:38

...and it is so very easy to obey.

Kinda strange.

 

[user]

...and it is so very easy to obey.

Kinda strange.

Yes but that spirit of rebellion is very much running ramped today.

 

[Nancy]

THE Great Tribulation was designed to cause mankind to repent before the 2nd coming of Christ.....



16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Hi Truther,

"Truther, post: 917307, member: 8451"]THE Great Tribulation was designed to cause mankind to repent before the 2nd coming of Christ....."

The vials and bowls of God's wrath are to be poured only on those who received the mark of the beast, not Christians. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and will not be harmed. It is the persecution of Satan that we must withstand in FAITH.
The time for repenting IMHO by then, is over and closed for those who already received the mark but, for those who did NOT take that mark there is always hope for them.

 

[justbyfaith]

When they are saying "peace and safety" then sudden destruction cometh upon them.

We know that this is not speaking of the church; because God hath not appointed us to wrath.

I believe that it may even be referring to the gap in morality that will occur when the church is taken from the earth and evil is allowed to run rampant. Because the restraining effect of the Holy Spirit in believers will be gone.

For it seems that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way when the GT begins.

But the Holy Spirit never leaves a true believer; so how will the true believer still be on the earth when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the earth?

 

[Truther]

Yes but that spirit of rebellion is very much running ramped today.

Just image that happening in the Apostles' day.

I guess when the cat's away the mice play.

 

[Truther]

Hi Truther,

"Truther, post: 917307, member: 8451"]THE Great Tribulation was designed to cause mankind to repent before the 2nd coming of Christ....."

The vials and bowls of God's wrath are to be poured only on those who received the mark of the beast, not Christians. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit and will not be harmed. It is the persecution of Satan that we must withstand in FAITH.
The time for repenting IMHO by then, is over and closed for those who already received the mark but, for those who did NOT take that mark there is always hope for them.

So we will witness all of Rev 16 untouched?

Is there a divine force field placed over saints during the events of Rev 6-16?

 

[user]

Just image that happening in the Apostles' day.

I guess when the cat's away the mice play.

Obeying Acts 2:38 took a bit of doing since I had to 1st find a church that baptized by immersion having Jesus name pronounced over me ... one church actually told me they would do the Matthew 28:19 formula but would "mention" the name of the son! I said, "nope, have a nice day."

I actually found the United Pentecostals to be the closest thing to the Acts church available to us today, and went there for baptism. Guess what, I received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues just like the Acts 2:39 promise!

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It's a good deal, why do folks reject it?

 

[Truther]

Obeying Acts 2:38 took a bit of doing since I had to 1st find a church that baptized by immersion having Jesus name pronounced over me ... one church actually told me they would do the Matthew 28:19 formula but would "mention" the name of the son! I said, "nope, have a nice day."

I actually found the United Pentecostals to be the closest thing to the Acts church available to us today, and went there for baptism. Guess what, I received the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues just like the Acts 2:39 promise!

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It's a good deal, why do folks reject it?

You chose well my friend.

You picked the name of Jesus over the titles.

You are officially in the Acts church.

Without the name of Jesus invoked, one is just a rat in a maze....

 

[marks]

My only wish is to put the Scriptures 1st, above personal associations. God 1st, and then friends.

Hi Randy,

You definitely could know me better than that! I'll try to facilitate that.

It's all about the Bible. Either it teaches something, or it doesn't. What do personal associations have to do with it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

But you're a good guy, I think, and won't let this divide us anymore than it divides me in my present Pretrib church!

OK, in the first place, why should different rapture views divide? Aren't we one in Christ?

If Paul taught Pretrib, why wasn't it taught until around the 1830s in the Church? It never was. Some faithful Pretribbers search long and hard to find a few kernels of *possible* Pretrib teachings in the Early Church, and I admit, a few statements come close. But this is hardly a theology or a movement--you just don't find the explicit theology taught anywhere in history, which makes it impossible, in my mind, for Paul to have taught it. If it was there in the Scriptures, Christian teachers would've taught it.

Have you even noticed that throughout history, the "great doctrines" of the church came in waves? Christology occupied the first few centuries, and eschatology seems to be taking over the last few centuries. It seems fitting to me.

But again, try to forget about who taught what when, and focus on specifically, what does the Bible itself say?

Much love!